Was the Father's will always subordinate to the Son's will?

[Soapy]

The sixth Ecumenical Synod 680–681 AD (when Catholic and Orthodox had not split up yet) decided that Jesus had two wills, human and divine, but his human will could never be different from the Father's will and always submits to his (Jesus) own divine will.
In the gospels, Jesus appeared to have different will from the Father, and tried to avoid his own salvation plan!
I have been an agnostic for some years now.

True… If Jesus is God then there could never ever be a different Will in the one person of Jesus Christ. If there was a contention then it would prove that ‘GOD AS MAN’ is fallible. Wow! Think about THAT!!!!!

But since we know that Jesus is Man, then even WITH God in him, Jesus Christ briefly gave in to the temptation that there could be ‘ANOTHER WAY’ to achieve the salvation of mankind. But Jesus recovered himself from the brief weakness, saying, ‘But not my Will, but yours [be done]’.

How could ONE PERSON have conflicting Wills … No! A person may have THE CHOICE of actions of which he chooses ONE to be his Will. In this case, the conflict was between THE WILL OF GOD, and the WILL OF JESUS. And Jesus briefly chose his own Will but then subdued himself to that of God.

You may have seen where I asked for a trinitarian to explain if the trinitarian belief that trinity Jesus is both God and Man makes Jesus GREATER THAN God since God is Spirit alone. OR, is trinity Jesus LESS THAN GOD …exactly because the trinity Jesus has the weakness of flesh!!!

Have you noticed that no answer has been forthcoming? They know I am right so they won’t answer me but perhaps you may have better luck on an answer if you asked the same question.

 

[jimb]

The OP is just nonsense. The Father (God) and the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit have always been in agreement.

"The Father and I are one.” John 10:30

"And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one." John 17:11

"As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me." John 17:21b

 

[Muffled]

Can you explain why?

I'm quoting the oldest Church's beliefs the one's who declared Jesus God together with Father and the Holy Spiit, and the results of the Sixth Ecumenical Council and specifically about the two wills of Jesus, divine and human. His human will is/was always submissive to his divine. if Jesus is God, consubstantial and inseparable having one essence/substance/nature with the Father, then he could never say to Father "except not as I will, but as you". (Matthew 26:39 - Luke 22:42)

I stand by my statement. It is the humanity of Jesus speaking when He says Thy will, not mine. I do believe the reason for that is that the human mind is subservient to the Spirit of God

 

[Ajax]

I stand by my statement. It is the humanity of Jesus speaking when He says Thy will, not mine. I do believe the reason for that is that the human mind is subservient to the Spirit of God

Then there is no Trinity, neither Jesus is God because there is no way that someone could have different will from the other...
OK, no problem.

 

[Soapy]

The OP is just nonsense. The Father (God) and the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit have always been in agreement.

"The Father and I are one.” John 10:30

This does not say that the Holy Spirit is in agreement … !!!

"And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one." John 17:11

This says that if Jesus is God them the disciples are ALSO GOD, by your belief!!

• "As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me." John 17:21b

Again, if each is in each other then you have created another TRINITY… Oh how I bet you could find a verse in scriptures that said:

• “As you, Holy Spirit, are in mr and the Father, and Father, yoh are in me and thd holy spirif, and I am in you, Father, and the Holy Spirit so theh may that we are one..’

But there isn’t any such verse because there isn’t any such a union. Truth is truth!!!

 

[John D. Brey]

Matthew 26:42-43 King James Version


The scene underscores Jesus' submission to the Father's will and his redemptive sacrifice. This event is central to Christian theology, representing Jesus' surrender into the hands of soldiers as part of the divine plan for humanity's redemption.

Matthew 26:53 King James Version


This passage seems to suggest that, in stating that He could summon angels through prayer to the Father, Jesus was highlighting His authority over circumstances, including the Father's already established will. This prayer would represent a channel to express, if necessary, the adjustment of the Son's will in line with the already established redemptive plan, disregarding the Father's will.

Was the Father's will always subordinate to the Son's will?

This is a thoughtful logical examination of an apparent contradiction, e.g., the son's will versus the fathers. Is the son's will subordinate to the father's, or could the son pray for more than twelve legions of angels and the father's will will send them?

In another place the son tells his disciples that when they see him they're seeing the father. So there's at least a colloidal relationship between the son and the father that makes separating their wills problematic.

Furthermore, in Jewish thought, it's stated that if not for the circumcision, God would either destroy the world, or, retroactively, not have created the world (God has that retroactive power through foreknowledge vouchsafed by omnipotence).

If Jesus called ten thousand angels to destroy the world and set him free (as the hymn says), it would have happened. But the world would then be destroyed such that once gone it's past history would be erased and things would be back to where they were before the creation.

In what R.B. Thieme, Jr., calls the "computer of divine decrees" God has already run human history through trillions of simulations and found one simulation that reflects his perfect will for creation. He has printed out that simulation making it real. We are living through the printout of the simulation able to be made real without infringing on God's perfect and eternal will because Jesus of Nazareth was able to make it to the cross, die, and be resurrected.

This is not one of the discarded simulation. There's nothing wrong with your television set. God is in perfect control.

John

 

[Soapy]

I stand by my statement. It is the humanity of Jesus speaking when He says Thy will, not mine. I do believe the reason for that is that the human mind is subservient to the Spirit of God

How does your dual nature “JESUS” decide when he wants to know something and when he doesn’t want to know something. Or when he wants to ‘God’ and when he wants to be ‘Man’?

Jewish man to Jesus: “Master, I’ve been faithful to you all my life… which side of you will I sit when I get to Heaven?’

Jesus to Jewish man in response: “I don’t know, only God knows, only my Father knows because such things are in his hands alone!”

Man: ‘But I thought you are Almighty God? Almighty God knows all things?’

Jesus: ‘Yes, I know all things WHEN the Father wants me to know all things. When that happens, I Am almighty God. But when he wants to keep things for himself he doesn’t tell me.. and then I’m just a man, again (Sigh!!!)’

Man: ‘Huh!! What kind of God are you?’

Jesus: ‘A variable God. I am what I am when it suits me AND when the Father tells me - I am a Trinity God!!’

Man: ‘But… TRINITY means THREE doesn’t it? I heard you say earlier that only YOU and your Father are ONE.., that’s TWO… not THREE.. surely. Have you got your definition wrong?’

Jesus: ‘Things mean what I want them to mean when I want them to mean what I want them to mean!’

Man: ‘Get thee behind me, Satan!!’

 

[Betho_br]

How does your dual nature “JESUS” decide when he wants to know something and when he doesn’t want to know something. Or when he wants to ‘God’ and when he wants to be ‘Man’?

Jewish man to Jesus: “Master, I’ve been faithful to you all my life… which side of you will I sit when I get to Heaven?’

Jesus to Jewish man in response: “I don’t know, only God knows, only my Father knows because such things are in his hands alone!”

Man: ‘But I thought you are Almighty God? Almighty God knows all things?’

Jesus: ‘Yes, I know all things WHEN the Father wants me to know all things. When that happens, I Am almighty God. But when he wants to keep things for himself he doesn’t tell me.. and then I’m just a man, again (Sigh!!!)’

Man: ‘Huh!! What kind of God are you?’

Jesus: ‘A variable God. I am what I am when it suits me AND when the Father tells me - I am a Trinity God!!’

Man: ‘But… TRINITY means THREE doesn’t it? I heard you say earlier that only YOU and your Father are ONE.., that’s TWO… not THREE.. surely. Have you got your definition wrong?’

Jesus: ‘Things mean what I want them to mean when I want them to mean what I want them to mean!’

Man: ‘Get thee behind me, Satan!!’

Your post deserves reflection.

 

[Soapy]

Your post deserves reflection.

Please show your reasoning.

 

[Betho_br]

Please show your reasoning.

The Greek word "kecharitomeno" is used in Ecclesiasticus 18:17 in the LXX to report the justification of a man. However, it is also used following the common greeting "Ave" by a hierarchically inferior, in the case of the angel to the Virgin Mary: "Ave, Gratia Plena" in Latin. Mary was prophesied and made justified.

The main problem now arises with interpretation issues, but let's stick to the Scriptures. In the Septuagint, the Greek word "theos" is interchangeable with the Hebrew term "Elohim." What do we know about this word? It is a polysemous term, used to refer both to deities (e.g., Gen 35:2; Ex 18:11, Job 1:6; Ps 8:5) and magistrates (Ex 21:6; 1 Sam 2:25). Therefore, the word "God" in the New Testament may be referring to a Christological magistrate, that is, anointed. Let's consider Romans 9:5: "To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen." Romans 9:5 is not asserting that Christ is "Almighty God." Concerning this, the Christian Bible continues in Philippians 2:11: "And every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

In the Quran, the attributes of Christ are mentioned: he was the son of a woman, thus a man; he was a messenger with a mission from God, honored; he was created by God's word "Be" (Kun); and he was a spirit from God (3rd Surah, verse 59 - Quran 4:171).

The question continues because in the Quran there is no mention of "Elohim." The word "God" always refers to Almighty God.

What have we learned about Jesus in the Scriptures? John 9:5 says He is the Light of the world. John 9:11 describes Him as a man, John 9:17 as a prophet, John 9:33 as someone who came from God, and John 9:38 shows that He was believed to be the Son of Man and was venerated.

All arguments from Protestants, Evangelicals, and Neo-Pentecostals claiming that Jesus is Almighty God have already been refuted; they are forced and dishonest interpretations. Basil the Great observed in John 14:10: "Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works."

The question arises: Is Jesus continually within the Father, or was it only a mission of a Christological Elohim? He was not the only one, see 2 Samuel 19:08 LXX, 1 Kings 1:17,30; 2:30, Psalms 17:30 LXX, 18:29 HEB; 44:9 HEB, 55:5 LLX, 56:5 HEB; 107:14 LXX, 108:13 HEB; Hosea 1:7; Habakkuk 3:18, Zechariah 12:5 and still Romans 11:7.

Therefore, according to the Christian Bible, Jesus is an Elohim who became Lord of All, born King of Israel, prophet, Son of God by a justified virgin, But not better than Adam, who had no human mother and father.

 

[Muffled]

Then there is no Trinity, neither Jesus is God because there is no way that someone could have different will from the other...
OK, no problem.

I believe I have no idea what you are talking about and certainly the Bible has the Trinity in it.

 

[Muffled]

How does your dual nature “JESUS” decide when he wants to know something and when he doesn’t want to know something. Or when he wants to ‘God’ and when he wants to be ‘Man’?

Jewish man to Jesus: “Master, I’ve been faithful to you all my life… which side of you will I sit when I get to Heaven?’

Jesus to Jewish man in response: “I don’t know, only God knows, only my Father knows because such things are in his hands alone!”

Man: ‘But I thought you are Almighty God? Almighty God knows all things?’

Jesus: ‘Yes, I know all things WHEN the Father wants me to know all things. When that happens, I Am almighty God. But when he wants to keep things for himself he doesn’t tell me.. and then I’m just a man, again (Sigh!!!)’

Man: ‘Huh!! What kind of God are you?’

Jesus: ‘A variable God. I am what I am when it suits me AND when the Father tells me - I am a Trinity God!!’

Man: ‘But… TRINITY means THREE doesn’t it? I heard you say earlier that only YOU and your Father are ONE.., that’s TWO… not THREE.. surely. Have you got your definition wrong?’

Jesus: ‘Things mean what I want them to mean when I want them to mean what I want them to mean!’

Man: ‘Get thee behind me, Satan!!’

First of all every person is dualistic in having mind and spirit. I am trinitistic as a Christian should be and have my mind, my spirit and the Spirit of God in me. I find God speaks when He wishes and since He is my Lord and Savior I am ok with that. My spirit usually stays in the background which is fine by me.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I believe I have no idea what you are talking about and certainly the Bible has the Trinity in it.

Hi Muffled

I think @Ajax refers to the fact that, when we say "God is One", we mean something.
When I say that, I mean that God has a single mind, a single will.
There cannot exist two or more minds or wills that have to agree, but could potentially disagree. That would be a synod or conclave of gods.

So, when Jesus admits to have a separate will than that of His Father, he admits he is not His Father, and He calls His Father "the only and True God".