Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??

[Mountain_Climber]

then i did misunderstand you.

Yes, you did. My post #3070 back on I think page 149, shows clearly that Jesus' being quickened in the spirit happened long before he was put to death in the flesh.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

This was Paul's point at 1 Corinthians chapter 15. Those to whom he had preached the need to be made alive in their dead spirits were failing to comprehend as they were so focused with worry about what would become of their physical shell. And that worry kept the old man alive instead of letting that old man die with Christ that they might be quickened in the spirit.

Throughout Paul's preaching his focus is on allowing Christ to quicken us from our spiritually dead state, else it will do us no good to be concerned as to what kind of a body we will have in the future.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

No, I mean he preached to them before he ever became flesh.

1Pe 3:18-20 (ESVST) 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

It says after Jesus was put to death, but made alive in the Spirit. That would mean when He was raised from the dead, correct? Then He went and preached to the "SPIRITS", not souls, in prison. And who were they? The ones who did not obey God or heed Noah's warning while the ark was being prepared. Every man, woman and child that were alive until Noah entered the ark.



While we're on the subject, JW's like to dismiss the teaching of hell as being eternal punishment, and you argue that point with, "how can a loving God send anyone to hell to burn forever." My question is, how could a loving God kill all those babies and little children that died in the flood?

 

[Mountain_Climber]

No need to argue with them, just to try to understand them.

The question is when was he made alive in the spirit? After death or while living as a human before his death?

The phrase, "made alive", does not have to mean, "resurrection". Compare: Ephesians 2:1, 5; Colossians 2:13

And now realize what Jesus did for us by pondering that comparison above to Philippians 2:5-11

The point of those words, "made alive", you are wasting on material thinking. Jesus had surrendered all his glory which he had beside God before the world began, and he did so to become like us bearing our guilt of sin upon himself so that he could conquer sin for us. That means Jesus allowed himself to visit our place of spiritual captivity so that upon walking victoriously up and out of that place of captivity he could carry many out of that bondage along with himself.

Of course you will try to argue that as you are so sure that you understand what you do not. Stop and think. Paul said being bound under that Old Law constituted that place of captivity. And you know this, as follows: Galatians 4:4-5 "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons."

Jesus was made alive first, before any others who came up and out from under that Old Law. And so it is completely true that though he was put to death in the flesh for having done so, he had been made alive in the spirit, thus showing us that he could be faithful clear to the end in accord with his own words, "fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28

It is going to take you a moment but if you will humbly ponder it our faithful Father will not let you go long without understanding it. Then you will see that you are attaching Peter's words to the wrong thing. Then you will understand that Peter is referring to, "the answer of a good conscience toward God", that alive spiritual state we must attain to, having risen out of our bondage along with Christ as he rose out of his willing bondage to that Old Law as a human, even though he knew it would mean his being put to death in the flesh..

The entire context of that chapter of Peter ought to begin making better sense to you now.

Even at 1 Corinthians 15:45 (And so it is written, "The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.")

Note that is talking not about what the first or the last Adam became after death. No, but it says clearly, "The first man Adam was made a living soul".

Then it contrasts that to how the last Adam was made, not how he died: "the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

Just as Adam was surely made a living soul long before his death, even so the last Adam was made a quickening spirit long before his death.

Where else would he get the power to resurrect?

It is the tiny things we miss seeing that we stumble over.

No it wasn't page 149. It was page number 154, post 3070

 

[djhwoodwerks]

And it is simple putting the right things together into the following verse with what was said in that verse, for:

This time Peter speaks of his having done that preaching is, "when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing.."

1Pe 3:19-20 (ESVST) , 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah.

So you're suggesting that, while God waited patiently for the ark to be built, Jesus went and preached to all the people of the earth?

 

[Mountain_Climber]

1Pe 3:18-20 (ESVST) 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

It says after Jesus was put to death, but made alive in the Spirit. That would mean when He was raised from the dead, correct? Then He went and preached to the "SPIRITS", not souls, in prison. And who were they? The ones who did not obey God or heed Noah's warning while the ark was being prepared. Every man, woman and child that were alive until Noah entered the ark.



While we're on the subject, JW's like to dismiss the teaching of hell as being eternal punishment, and you argue that point with, "how can a loving God send anyone to hell to burn forever." My question is, how could a loving God kill all those babies and little children that died in the flood?

The translator has had to add too many of his own words and thoughts to come up with that translation.

It is not your fault you can't see through that translators tailoring of that verse. I can as I am trained to do so.

Get away from their exegesis and go to a direct word for word translation. Then you will be able to decide instead of letting them decide for you.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

The translator has had to had too many of his own words and thoughts to come up with that translation.

It is not your fault you can't see through that translators tailoring of that verse. I can as I am trained to do so.

That's why you haven't made any sense, you've been "TRAINED" not taught. I totally understand now. I will be patient with you.

 

[JFish123]

The translator has had to add too many of his own words and thoughts to come up with that translation.

It is not your fault you can't see through that translators tailoring of that verse. I can as I am trained to do so.

Get away from their exegesis and go to a direct word for word translation. Then you will be able to decide instead of letting them decide for you.

And you don't think the Watchtower adds any words or changes any words to make the bible say what they want it to say to fit there theology? Come on, man. The watchtower had the words "worship Jesus" changed after 60 years to do "obeisance" to him to fit there theology. And that's just one example. You are only "trained" to see what the watchtower says you are to see. No JW can interpret any verse themselves says the watchtower. So what they believe you are "trained" to believe without any independent thought. Blinded by false teachers and you both End up in a ditch.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

1Pe 3:19-20 (ESVST) , 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah.

So you're suggesting that, while God waited patiently for the ark to be built, Jesus went and preached to all the people of the earth?

The issue back then was that Satan was dragging that third of the angels down with him. Surely you don't think God would allow that to happen without warning them even as he has us?

 

[JayJayDee]

And you don't think the Watchtower adds any words or changes any words to make the bible say what they want it to say to fit there theology? Come on, man. The watchtower had the words "worship Jesus" changed after 60 years to do "obeisance" to him to fit there theology. And that's just one example. You are only "trained" to see what the watchtower says you are to see. No JW can interpret any verse themselves says the watchtower. So what they believe you are "trained" to believe without any independent thought. Blinded by false teachers and you both End up in a ditch.

You do understand the Greek word pro·sky·neʹo, don't you JFish? We have altered nothing, just increased our understanding over time as we continue to mine the Bible for the gems yet to be revealed.

"The Greek pro·sky·neʹo corresponds closely to the Hebrew hish·ta·chawahʹ as to conveying the thought of both obeisance to creatures and worship to God or a deity. The manner of expressing the obeisance is perhaps not so prominent in pro·sky·neʹo as in hish·ta·chawahʹ, where the Hebrew term graphically conveys the thought of prostration or bowing down. Scholars derive the Greek term from the verb ky·neʹo, “kiss.” The usage of the word in the Christian Greek Scriptures (as also in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures) shows that persons to whose actions the term is applied prostrated themselves or bowed down.—Mt 2:11; 18:26; 28:9.

As with the Hebrew term, the context must be considered to determine whether pro·sky·neʹo refers to obeisance solely in the form of deep respect or obeisance in the form of religious worship. Where reference is directly to God (Joh 4:20-24;1Co 14:25; Re 4:10) or to false gods and their idols (Ac 7:43; Re 9:20), it is evident that the obeisance goes beyond that acceptably or customarily rendered to men and enters the field of worship. So, too, where the object of the obeisance is left unstated, its being directed to God is understood. (Joh 12:20;Ac 8:27; 24:11; Heb 11:21; Re 11:1) On the other hand, the action of those of “the synagogue of Satan” who are made to “come and do obeisance” before the feet of Christians is clearly not worship.—Re 3:9.

Obeisance to a human king is found in Jesus’ illustration at Matthew 18:26. It is evident that this was the kind of obeisance that the astrologers rendered to the child Jesus, “born king of the Jews,” that Herod professed interest in expressing, and that the soldiers mockingly rendered to Jesus before his impalement. They clearly did not view Jesus as God or as a deity. (Mt 2:2, 8; Mr 15:19) While some translators use the word “worship” in the majority of cases where pro·sky·neʹo describes persons’ actions toward Jesus, the evidence does not warrant one’s reading too much into this rendering. Rather, the circumstances that evoked the obeisance correspond very closely to those producing obeisance to the earlier prophets and kings. (Compare Mt 8:2; 9:18; 15:25; 20:20 with 1Sa 25:23, 24;2Sa 14:4-7; 1Ki 1:16; 2Ki 4:36, 37.) The very expressions of those involved often reveal that, while they clearly recognized Jesus as God’s representative, they rendered obeisance to him, not as to God or a deity, but as “God’s Son,” the foretold “Son of man,” the Messiah with divine authority. On many occasions their obeisance expressed a gratitude for divine revelation or evidence of favor like that expressed in earlier times.—Mt 14:32, 33; 28:5-10, 16-18; Lu 24:50-52; Joh 9:35, 38."

Obeisance — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Jesus did not once accept or demand worship, but directed all worship to his Father "alone" . (Luke 4:8) Why would he accept worship when he was not God? He identified the Father as the "only true God" and then identified himself as "the one he sent forth". (John 17:3)

Even up until fairly recent decades, judges in the English justice system were addressed as "Your Worship". Do you think that people thought they were gods? Or was it that these ones rightly expected to be treated with the respect their position warranted?

I believe it is you who need "training" in the languages of the Bible.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

And you don't think the Watchtower adds any words or changes any words to make the bible say what they want it to say to fit there theology? Come on, man. The watchtower had the words "worship Jesus" changed after 60 years to do "obeisance" to him to fit there theology. And that's just one example. You are only "trained" to see what the watchtower says you are to see. No JW can interpret any verse themselves says the watchtower. So what they believe you are "trained" to believe without any independent thought. Blinded by false teachers and you both End up in a ditch.

I don't disagree with that.

I may not always agree as to where and when they do that, but I don't disagree that they do that.

As far as you playing on my use of the word trained, I can accept that being as you don't know who personally trained me. Nor would you believe me if I told you.

What if I told you I am one of the GB?

 

[Mountain_Climber]

You do understand the Greek word pro·sky·neʹo, don't you JFish? We have altered nothing, just increased our understanding over time as we continue to mine the Bible for the gems yet to be revealed.

"The Greek pro·sky·neʹo corresponds closely to the Hebrew hish·ta·chawahʹ as to conveying the thought of both obeisance to creatures and worship to God or a deity. The manner of expressing the obeisance is perhaps not so prominent in pro·sky·neʹo as in hish·ta·chawahʹ, where the Hebrew term graphically conveys the thought of prostration or bowing down. Scholars derive the Greek term from the verb ky·neʹo, “kiss.” The usage of the word in the Christian Greek Scriptures (as also in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures) shows that persons to whose actions the term is applied prostrated themselves or bowed down.—Mt 2:11; 18:26; 28:9.

As with the Hebrew term, the context must be considered to determine whether pro·sky·neʹo refers to obeisance solely in the form of deep respect or obeisance in the form of religious worship. Where reference is directly to God (Joh 4:20-24;1Co 14:25; Re 4:10) or to false gods and their idols (Ac 7:43; Re 9:20), it is evident that the obeisance goes beyond that acceptably or customarily rendered to men and enters the field of worship. So, too, where the object of the obeisance is left unstated, its being directed to God is understood. (Joh 12:20;Ac 8:27; 24:11; Heb 11:21; Re 11:1) On the other hand, the action of those of “the synagogue of Satan” who are made to “come and do obeisance” before the feet of Christians is clearly not worship.—Re 3:9.

Obeisance to a human king is found in Jesus’ illustration at Matthew 18:26. It is evident that this was the kind of obeisance that the astrologers rendered to the child Jesus, “born king of the Jews,” that Herod professed interest in expressing, and that the soldiers mockingly rendered to Jesus before his impalement. They clearly did not view Jesus as God or as a deity. (Mt 2:2, 8; Mr 15:19) While some translators use the word “worship” in the majority of cases where pro·sky·neʹo describes persons’ actions toward Jesus, the evidence does not warrant one’s reading too much into this rendering. Rather, the circumstances that evoked the obeisance correspond very closely to those producing obeisance to the earlier prophets and kings. (Compare Mt 8:2; 9:18; 15:25; 20:20 with 1Sa 25:23, 24;2Sa 14:4-7; 1Ki 1:16; 2Ki 4:36, 37.) The very expressions of those involved often reveal that, while they clearly recognized Jesus as God’s representative, they rendered obeisance to him, not as to God or a deity, but as “God’s Son,” the foretold “Son of man,” the Messiah with divine authority. On many occasions their obeisance expressed a gratitude for divine revelation or evidence of favor like that expressed in earlier times.—Mt 14:32, 33; 28:5-10, 16-18; Lu 24:50-52; Joh 9:35, 38."

Obeisance — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Jesus did not once accept or demand worship, but directed all worship to his Father "alone" . (Luke 4:8) Why would he accept worship when he was not God? He identified the Father as the "only true God" and then identified himself as "the one he sent forth". (John 17:3)

Even up until fairly recent decades, judges in the English justice system were addressed as "Your Worship". Do you think that people thought they were gods? Or was it that these ones rightly expected to be treated with the respect their position warranted?

I believe it is you who need "training" in the languages of the Bible.

We agree on that subject.

It is utter foolishness to ignore the usage of that word in the service of human dignitaries and then insist it only means worship in the sense of exclusive devotion.

The worship God demands is a worship unrivaled by any other person we might esteem to be our superior.

In other words, they cannot be allowed to become gods who block our reverence of the One True God.

 

[Kolibri]

What if I told you I am one of the GB?

Simple answer, I would say: I don't believe you.

 

[Pegg]

No I don't need to go back to the language Jesus spoke. The NT was written in Greek, inspired by the Holy Spirit, and that is what I go by. You can continue to live according to the OT if you choose, but I will live according to the law of Christ, which is the NT.

You can't understand the law of the Christ without understanding the OT. Sorry, but the law of the Christ is based on the Hebrew scriptures. When the Jews called him 'Teacher' or 'Rabbi', what was Jesus a teacher of??? Was it not the Hebrew scriptures? Yes it was. So if you are not interested in the Hebrew scriputres, then you are not very interested in what Christ was teaching.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Simple answer, I would say: I don't believe you.

I know you wouldn't believe that but I figure that is about the only thing I could say that he would believe.

By the way, I don't claim to have it all figured out as of yet, and am in many ways just surmising about the possibilities.

Until all of the possible ways to look at something are clearly seen, what we believe remains at risk of being wrong.

The five things I have figured out to the point that I feel rather certain about them are (1) A literal living eternal torment in a lake of fire called hell is a false doctrine (I believe that the word torment can be readily shown as implying mere confinement and the place of the weeping and gnashing of teeth is a spiritual place of torment or confinement we suffer by our attitudes while yet alive in the flesh), (2) Jesus is not God the Almighty, (3) the entire idea of being born already having a nature in us bent toward sin is wrong, (4) no where in the Bible does it really teach that anyone who descended from the first Adam go to heaven to live. Not even one. And (5) God does not know all the tiny details of what we will do before we design the ideas in ourselves and then choose to act on those ideas.

But what I know better than anything else is that we can have all knowledge and be perfect in our understanding, but if we fail in the area of the first and greatest commandment and the second like it, then, no amount of knowledge and understanding will save us.

I am afraid I picked up a tendency to mess with people's minds a bit from savagewind. She likes to do that, too.

 

[katiemygirl]

"Mountain_Climber, post: 4345729, member: 57086"]You are miss translating.

I thought you might like to read what this commentator has to say about the passage. I'm not suggesting he's right or wrong, but interesting and possibly correct.

To the spirits in prison ...
The preaching mentioned in the previous verse was directed to living men and women on the earth at the time the preaching was done, but who at the time of Peter's mentioning this were "in prison," that is, in a deceased state, under the sentence of God like the angels who are cast down and reserved unto the day of judgment and destruction of the wicked. There is another possibility, namely, that the whole antediluvian world to whom the preaching was directed were said by Peter in this passage to have been "in prison" at the time of the preaching of Noah. If that is what he meant, then the figure harmonizes perfectly with Jesus' preaching to the citizens of Nazareth and others of that generation, referring to his message as "a proclamation of release to the captives," that is, the captives in sin (Luke 4:18). There is no Scriptural reason whatever for not referring to that whole generation which rejected the preaching of Noah as "the souls in prison"; however, Peter wrote, "spirits in prison"; and, for that reason, we must refer the words "spirits in prison" to their present status at the time of Peter's writing. They, like the fallen angels, were then "spirits in prison." Ages earlier, they were living men and women who rejected the preaching of Christ through Noah. Peter here spoke of them, by way of identification, as "spirits in prison"; but there is not a line in this passage which requires us to believe that Christ preached personally to those "spirits in prison" during the three days his body lay in the tomb!

It is clear then that the meaning attributed to "spirits in prison" turns altogether upon the fact of when the preaching was done. The next verse makes it certain that it was during the generation of Noah, a time when the "spirits" here mentioned were not "spirits" merely, but "souls"; therefore, "spirits in prison" is a reference to their status at the time Peter wrote.

 

[Pegg]

If Jesus didn't preach the gospel to the spirits in prison, then I ask you, what did He preach? And why preach to only the group of disobedient people from Noah's day and none of the rest of disobedient humanity both before and after Noah?

Not people. People are not spirits. Only angels/demons are spirits.

 

[Pegg]

Katie, look at 2 Peter 2:4

It tells us who the spirits are.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

I thought you might like to read what this commentator has to say about the passage. I'm not suggesting he's right or wrong, but interesting and possibly correct.

To the spirits in prison ...
The preaching mentioned in the previous verse was directed to living men and women on the earth at the time the preaching was done, but who at the time of Peter's mentioning this were "in prison," that is, in a deceased state, under the sentence of God like the angels who are cast down and reserved unto the day of judgment and destruction of the wicked. There is another possibility, namely, that the whole antediluvian world to whom the preaching was directed were said by Peter in this passage to have been "in prison" at the time of the preaching of Noah. If that is what he meant, then the figure harmonizes perfectly with Jesus' preaching to the citizens of Nazareth and others of that generation, referring to his message as "a proclamation of release to the captives," that is, the captives in sin (Luke 4:18). There is no Scriptural reason whatever for not referring to that whole generation which rejected the preaching of Noah as "the souls in prison"; however, Peter wrote, "spirits in prison"; and, for that reason, we must refer the words "spirits in prison" to their present status at the time of Peter's writing. They, like the fallen angels, were then "spirits in prison." Ages earlier, they were living men and women who rejected the preaching of Christ through Noah. Peter here spoke of them, by way of identification, as "spirits in prison"; but there is not a line in this passage which requires us to believe that Christ preached personally to those "spirits in prison" during the three days his body lay in the tomb!

It is clear then that the meaning attributed to "spirits in prison" turns altogether upon the fact of when the preaching was done. The next verse makes it certain that it was during the generation of Noah, a time when the "spirits" here mentioned were not "spirits" merely, but "souls"; therefore, "spirits in prison" is a reference to their status at the time Peter wrote.

Now, that is curious indeed.

I see I am not the only one that perceives the time of that preaching to have been during the time of Noah as determined by context. However, Pegg makes a good point about 2: Peter 2:4. I will have to ponder that a bit further to see if I can find that connection in the context.

 

[katiemygirl]

Not people. People are not spirits. Only angels/demons are spirits.

Are you saying that man does not have a spirit, soul and body?

I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:23)


For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow (body), and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart (Hebrews 4:12).

You've got some explaining to do about what these verses say. They seem to disagree with you.