Watchtower: Jesus is not "a god"!

[Soapy]

Hi @Twilight Hue :


I think your point about Jesus being a “demi-God” is an interesting lens through which to examine Jesus’ Divinity especially since the model is so similar to and consistent with the model of Henotheism* of ancient Judaism.
*(i.e. multiple Gods, only ONE of which was dominant and worthy of ultimate worship)


For example, in early Christian literature and tradition :

1) Jesus is, somehow or in some way, divine (i.e. a God). This allows for a demi-God model.

2) Jesus was not the same as his Father (the Almighty God of Gods) in early Christian tradition.
Multiple biblical references can support multiple doctrinal positions depending upon which scriptures one gives priority to and how they are interpreted. This is also allows a demi-God model.

Yet there is the Jewish tradition that

3)There is no other God "beside" the one God. (this in opposition to Israel having recognized and worshipped other Gods for which the prophets took them to task for)

While the later adoption of a 3=1 trinity creates logical problems as does the later model in which Jesus is simply a normal man, a return to the early Judeo-Christian Henotheistic model of the trinity (i.e. Jesus as a son of God who is a lessor God – demi God) may cause fewer problems of logic.

For example, If the Hebraist Heiser is correct in pointing out that “no other God beside me” is not a numerical reference, but is instead, a spacial reference, meaning there is no other God that is on the same level with or who is the same as or equal to the God of Gods (Jesus’ Father), then this reference is not a problem for the demi-God model.

While one interpretation is strict monostheism, another second interpretation means simply that none are equal to the Lord God (i.e. God of [other] Gods).

While the model of Jesus as a "lessor" or Demi-God may have it's own conceptual problem, it solves some of the other logical complaints of the later 3=1 trinity that became popular.



Clear
φυνεφυνετζω

Jesus as a man is NOT A LATER MODEL.

There never was a time when Jesus was ever considered as anything but a man by the Jewish nation…

Scriptures tells us that Jesus was : A man who was CONSECRATED BY GOD - as it is shown in Acts 10:37-38.

In point of fact, his title is Jesus CHRIST… the ‘Christ’ meaning ‘ANOINTED ONE’. So his designation only came about in the circumstances of his anointment: A setting apart for kingship and/or Priesthood. And further, this setting apart was a special one because if was an anointment not with oil of the priest but of oil of gladness: the Holy Spirit of God; the Father.

It is worth pointing out that Jesus did no miracles until AFTER he was ANOINTED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AND WITH POWER.

This anointing allowed him to perform these miracles BY MEANS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OF HIS FATHER.

And if us also proved by the anointing of the apostles at Pentecost wherein they too gained extraordinary powers in language medicine learning teaching etc… all through the power of the Holy Spirit of the Father… ‘A GIFT FROM THE FATHER’.

Jesus said it himself… said that the things he did were because of the Father (his Father’s Spirit) working in him.

Jesus ALWAYS attributed his powers to the Father.

Jesus always attributed the spiritual truths he spoke to the people TO HIS FATHER teaching him what to say.

And since these realities are from the IMMEDIATE TIME of Jesus, it can hardly be claimed that they were mere presentations in the decades and centuries after Jesus died or traditions of those later eras.

For sure, everyone knew about Demi-Gods from the Egyptians, philistines, Greek, moabites, pessabites, etc… that the Hebrews, Israelites, Jews, encountered - but there was never a time when anyone of Jewish nation believed in such a personage as they’d belief was a single belief that there was ONLY ONE GOD and that ONLY GOD was YHWH, by name, God, by title.

It is TRINITARIAN belief, trinitarian false ideology, moscreants in the church (JUST AS JESUS PROPHESIESED!!) who changed the natural into the unnatural, the truth into a lie, the saviour into a SOMETIMES-God person!!

And in response to the ‘No other God beside(s) me’ reference, YHWH did not deny that there were other beliefs in which there were deities called ‘God’ and ‘Gods’.

I cannot understand how the very evidence is in the face of the senators but they still ignore it. I can only think that they must ignore it to keep their false ideology going.

The word and term ‘God’ is so mistakenly used that there must be an open agenda to purposely misuse it.

‘God’ is A TITLE….. it is just the same as ‘Monarch’, ‘Father’, ‘Ruler’, ‘King’, etc. There can be many whom are called so!

The term, ‘God’, is also an ADJECTIVE… and more so, a SUPERLATIVE ADJECTIVE’. So it can describe someone or something that is the utmost, the highest, the greatest, most glorious, highest of the high, all mighty, heroic, greatest…..

It is the usage and intent that determines the interpretation.

Clearly, the Jews (but more precisely, the Hebrews and later, Israelites) [“may have come to”] believed in ONLY ONE GOD as their deity ruler.

The Jews, as seen through Abraham, were among tribes and nations who believed the world was created, controlled, ruled over by MANY DEITIES … many GODS. Each ‘Deity’ was responsible for one of more aspect of the created world … such that these ‘Pagans’ PRAYED to a specific deity for something they wanted, desired, needed… They madd statuettes of what these deities are supposed to look like and agreed what aspect the deity is meant to represent.

However, it us to be noted that Abraham worshipped a God that DID NOT have a statuette … Abraham relied on FAITH in his ONLY ONE GOD for his needs. There was no need for a visual ‘God’ to pray to!

As Abraham built and guided his family in the faith of this one only God, he had to weave his way around and through other nations who were worshipping many deities… the attractiveness of the celebrations, the visualness, the immediacy of a chosen special guardian statuette God made it hard to think that only one ‘God’ could do ALL THINGS…. That:

• One GOD was GOD
• The Reverence paid to One ruling Deity was that ‘He’ was ‘Almighty’ in all things in the created world

(Exercise: Identify the title and the superlative adjective in the bullet point above!)

Through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, this one Deity remained their ONLY GOD.

But by the time of Moses, many of the (now ISRAELITES) had fallen to the visual and bodily wonders and gratification in the indulgence of the pagan tribes around them worshipping many personally selected deities and behaving outlandishly indulging in gratuitous pleasures.

Moses, separated himself from that situation, and by a happy accident, left off and out … But the eternal one God of his forefathers called him back (like as illustrated in Jonah and the fish and saving Nineveh) and, on returning, found the Israelites on the verge of going pagan. When he spoke to them about why “The God of his foreFathers” had instructed him to go worship in the wilderness, they asked him “WHICH GOD” had told him this… “What is his name??”.

You must see from this that at that time the ONLY GOD, the one deity of their belief DID NOT HAVE A NAME (a personal pronoun). This showed that the Israelites were confused because their pagan neighbours all had NAMES for their Gods… they called personally on the name of whichever one they desired… it made INDIVIDUAL IDENTIFICATION NECESSARY.

When Moses spoke to this deity, there was no need to PETSONSLLY IDENTIFY the ONE deity because where there is only one only a TITLE is required. We can see this in the British ruling monarchy where we only say, “The Queen”! We do not have identify the personal name of this monarch.

The deity told Moses that [because the children of Israel needed an identifier for him] he would give them a name… an eternal name.

He DEFINED HIMSELF as being ‘ALWAYS’!!!

• Always Was
• Always Am
• Always Will Be

And that because of this, his name will be ‘YHWH’, which is Hebrew and INTERPRETED AS simply: ‘I AM’ (the MEANING is ‘I have always been and will always be.,.!)

Now I get pleasurable goosebumps thinking about that name because such a simply term FULLY ENCOMPASSES ALL THAT THIS GOD IS… EVERYTHING GOOD GREAT WONDEROUS MIGHTY AND MAJESTIC.

So, YHWH told Moses that the Israelites should believe in ONLY HIM as their deity… worship HIM ALONE as their ONLY GOD!

And this very command is what separates the Israelites from all other pagan tribes they encountered : Worship the deity who is their mighty hero, their majestic king, their almighty one.

Of course, tgis fell apart later where the children of Israel DEMANDED a HUMAN FOCUS TOWARDS GOD for their worship… a HUMAN KING… just like the pagans around them. Note that YHWH did not APPROVE this demand but merely ALLOWED IT. This was because the Israelites were becoming hard eared over the direct commands from an invisible deity… the influence of the pagans sweetened them towards a human commander: a King… hence the ear of Saul, the first Israelite king! And we all know how that went!!!!

 

[Clear]

post one of two

Hi @Twilight Hue ;

Regarding Twilight Hue’s examination of the Christian Jesus through the lens of a “lessor God” or a “Demi-God”.

Soapy commented : “There never was a time when Jesus was ever considered as anything but a man by the Jewish nation…



Twightlight Hue ;

To be clear, I was speaking about your model from the perspective of Christianity, and IT'S early traditions rather than from the perspective of one of the various Judaisms, or Hinduism or Islam or Soapy's religion etc. I expect most Christianities, even nowadays, believe Jesus the Christ is much more than just a man.

Thus, my comments regarding your model remain historically intact. The earliest and most ancient Christian movements early literature and tradition obviously regarded Jesus as being more than “just a man”.

For example, the Messiah Jesus was viewed in early Christian tradition as the creator of the World.

An example to this tradition in the biblical text from Hebrews1:1-2 reads : "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds."

A “Mere man” does not create worlds. Gods may, and Demi-Gods may, but not a mere “man”.

This tradition that the messiah/Son/Christ was the creator is reflected in much of the early Judeo-Christian literature.

For examples :

In the Hellenistic Synagogal prayer (#1) (said after the communion) it was part of the prayer to say : “We give thanks to you, O God and Father of Jesus our Savior...on behalf of the knowledge and faith and love and immortality which you gave to us through Jesus your Son. O Master Almighty, the God of the universe, you created the world and what is in it through him,...”(Apos Con 7.26. 1-3)

This doctrine that the earth was created by the SON, is reflected in Prayer #4 of Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers where they prayed to God thusly :
“you are the Father of wisdom, the Creator, as cause, of the creative workmanship through a Mediator...(aposCon 7.35.1-10);

This doctrine is reflected in yet another Hellenistic Synagogal prayer (#1) that was said after the communion : ‘We give thanks to you, O God and Father of Jesus our Savior...on behalf of the knowledge and faith and love and immortality which you gave to us through Jesus your Son. O Master Almighty, the God of the universe, you created the world and what is in it through him,...(Apos Con 7.26. 1-3)

Another early Prayer from the Apostolic constitutions is as follows : “Blessed are you, O Lord, King of the ages, who through Christ made everything, and through him in the beginning ordered that which was unprepared; prayer #3 - (aposCon 7.34.1-8)

Using the common epithet of Jesus as God’s “right hand” Baruch honors God the Father who “with your counsel, you reign over all creation which your right hand has created” (The apocalypse of (Baruch 2) 54:13)

In the same manner, Christian Clement, who was a convert of the apostle Peter and a colleague who taught with the apostle Paul speaks of things done by the Father, but THROUGH Jesus as administrator : for example, he refers to God the Father as

“the creator of the universe...through his beloved servant Jesus Christ...” and that God calls us from darkness to light “through” Jesus, and he refers to “ those who love you through Jesus Christ, your beloved Servant..” (1 Clem 59:2-3)

Another early prayer was :

7 the God and Father of your only Son, our God and Savior, the maker of the whole universe through him; 8 the Administrator, the Guardian, ... (#9 A Prayer of Praise to God for his greatness, and for His appointment of Leaders for His People (AposCon 8.5.1-4)




OTHER CHARACTERISTICS WHICH DISTINGUISHED THE MESSIAH / CHRIST FROM OTHER MEN


While The Messiah Jesus was seen by Christians as a creator, under the direction God the Father, there are other superlative Characteristics of the Messiah which distinguish him from other men. Examples include :

1) The Great, Eternal, cosmic plan to Educate Spirits and the Messiahs role in accomplishing this great, eternal, cosmic plan

I like the early Judeo-Christians’ concept of the Messiah being a pre-eminently intelligent being, full of grace and intelligence who was chosen by God to be his “right hand” and colleague in administering a great eternal, cosmic plan of tutoring the spirits of mankind in moral and social laws that are designed to (ultimately) prepare them to live in a social heaven in harmony and joy for ever.

For example, the prophet Enoch, describes his revelation of heaven and describes the spirits of mankind wanting this wisdom as “ the thirsty ones drink (from the fountains of wisdom…) and become filled with wisdom.”. The plan from the beginning was to send embodied spirits to earth to receive moral wisdom and experience which would educate them regarding good and evil and thus prepare those who chose to learn to do good for heaven where “… their dwelling places become with the holy, righteous, and elect ones.” 1st Enoch 48:1 ("Jewish Enoch)


2) The Messiah as one who was chosen for his role from the beginning (The Lamb slain from the Foundation of the world)

Enoch describes the choosing of a Messiah/Savior who would serve as an important part of accomplishing this plan, saying “At that hour, that Son of Man was given a name, in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits, the head of days, 3 even before the creation of the sun and the moon, before the creation of the stars, he was given a name in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits. 4 He will become a staff for the righteous ones in order that they may lean on him and not fall. He is the light of the gentiles and he will become the hope of those who are sick in their hearts. 5 All those who dwell upon the earth shall fall and worship before him: they shall glorify, bless, and sing the name of the Lord of the Spirits. 6 For this purpose he became the Chosen One…”



3) The Messiah as an administrator in the Old Testament era.

As a co-administrator of the plan, He is also referred to as “The Right arm” of God (much as we refer to a “right hand man” of a superior) in his early role of teaching mankind the two, great, eternal principles of both Justice and mercy.. Thus in teaching mankind the concept of Justice (as well as the inadequacy of using this principle without mercy) the Prophet Enoch is told “ Come and I will show you the right hand of the Omnipresent one,....3...as it is written, ‘He made his glorious arm go at the right hand of Moses.” If we skip ahead many generations through the various stories of Israel and their challenges with Polytheism, and difficulties remaining true to God as their religion underwent multiple evolutions (which various prophets attempt to reform), at some point God promises to remember them despite their faults. (read further)

Post two of two follows

 

[Clear]

POST TWO OF TWO
4) The Messiah as Jesus who was promised to Israel and the rest of the world

In the early texts he was to come to the Jews in the meridian of time, not because they were deserving of it, but to fulfill promises to their forefathers : “And I bore their bitterness because of humility; that I might save my nation and instruct it. 13 and that I might not nullify the promises to the patriarchs, to whom I was promised for the salvation of their offspring. “ Odes of Solomon #31: vs11-13



5) The Messiah as the first to accomplish a resurrection

The Messiah was seen as one who opened the door to resurrection as he is the first to be resurrected by God, his Father. Thus the early Synagogal prayer says of God, “ You have loosed the boundary of death, You who are the Maker of life for the dead, through Jesus Christ, our hope! Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers - #3:1 (aposCon 7.34.1-8) ;



6) The Messiah as the one who freed the dead from Hades at the first resurrection

The decensus literature also speaks of his role among the dead who had never had the gospel preached to them) and his decensus into Hades to free the captives (during the three days after his death and before his resurrection). Bartholomews text relates it thusly : "Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.” And Jesus answered: “Blessed are you Bartholomew, my beloved, because you saw this mystery. And now I will tell you everything you ask me. “When I vanished from the cross, I went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. …and I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross.” Bartholomew chapt one

The same story is related by the Odes of Solomon thusly : “ And he who knew and exalted me is the Most High in all his perfection. 8 And he glorified me by his kindness, and raised my understanding to the height of truth. 9 And from there he gave me the way of his paths, and I opened the doors which were closed. 10 And I shattered the bars of iron,....11 And nothing appeared closed to me, because I was the opening of everything. 12 And I went toward all my bondsmen in order to loose them; that I might not abandon anyone bound or binding. 13 And I gave my knowledge generously, and my resurrection through my love. 14 And I sowed my fruits in hearts, and transformed them through myself. 15 then they received my blessing and lived, and they were gathered to me and were saved. Odes of Solomon #17:3,6-15;

Matt 27: 52 tells us that at Jesus’ resurrection from the Dead, “The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people."

The Sons of Simeon, who had died, were among those who were resurrected at the time Jesus resurrected and they describe this occurrence of Jesus’ entry into Hades and the freeing of those who were being taught by prior prophets who had also died. (Gospel of Nicodemus)


7) The role of the Messiah in the gradual gathering of Israel toward the Gospel.

The prophet Enoch is told that, in the latter days that the messiah will be delivered in his return and his people Israel will be gathered from all quarters of the world, from among the Gentiles and other nations, toward the New Covenant (the New Testament covenant where Mercy balances Justice) and, at some point, they will recognize their Messiah and be gathered toward this standard. This is described thusly “...then the Holy One blessed be he, will at once remember his own righteousness, merit, mercy, and grace, and, for his own sake, will deliver his great arm, and his own righteousness will support him, as it is written,... 8...For my own sake, for the sake of my own merit and righteousness, I shall deliver my arm, and by it save my sons from among the gentiles…he, will reveal his great arm in the world, and show it to the gentiles: ... At once Israel shall be saved from among the gentiles and the Messiah shall appear to them and bring them up to Jerusalem with great joy. Moreover, the kingdom of Israel, gathered from the four quarters of the world, shall eat with the Messiah, and the gentiles shall eat with them, as it is written, “The Lord bares his holy arm In the sight of all the nations, And all the ends of the earth shall see The salvation of our God” 3rd Enoch 48:1,6-10 (compare .” Isa 52:10)

Other texts make this same wonderful promise to Israel : For example, the Patriarch Asher tells his sons “You will be scattered to the four corners of the earth; in the dispersion you shall be regarded as worthless, like useless water,” And, speaking of the Messiah, the promise is made that “He will save Israel and all the nations,. Tell these things, my children, to your children, so that they will not disobey him. For I know that you will be thoroughly disobedient, that you will be thoroughly irreligious, heeding not God’s Law but human commandments, being corrupted by evil. For this reason, you will be scattered like Dan and Gad, my brothers, you shall not know your own lands, tribe, or language. But he will gather you in faith through his compassion and on account of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Asher 7:3-7


8) The Messiah as both Judge and Heir to this Kingdom of his Fathers

In this early Judeo-Christian model, the messiah takes on the role of a central administrator, as heir of this kingdom of individuals who gathered toward the principles he taught. Thus, after the Judgement it is said of the Messiah that “You [God] appointed him as Your firstborn son. There is none like him, as a prince and ruler in all Your inhabited world […] the crown of the heavens and glory of the clouds You have placed on him […] and the angel of Your peace in his congregation. …You gave him righteous statutes, as a father gives a son…..” 4q369 Frag.1 Col. 1

The merciful attitude of the Messiah as Judge :
“Jesus said to him: “Bartholomew, the Father named me Christ, that I might come down on earth and anoint with the oil of life, everyone who came to me. And he called me Jesus, that I might heal every sin of the ignorant and give to men the truth of God. Bartholomew CH IV


I believe that the early Judeo-Christian textual model of the Messiah and his central role in administrating the plan of God the Father is what makes this Messiah character so incredibly, uniquely, honorable among all existence.

I do not think the modern descriptions and interpretations of him are any more rational or logical or demonstrate better why the Messiah is worthy of honor than the early literary descriptions of him and what he accomplished.

In any case, and whatever the beliefs of others are, @Twilight Hue I hope you have a good spiritual journey in coming to your own models as to What and Who the Messiah is.



Clear
φυνεσιτζακω

 

[YoursTrue]

You are a tempter… bye bye!!

Tempting because you can't answer?

 

[YoursTrue]

YoursTrue I hope all is well...
Love is an action of the heart!
Selfishness is the opposite to love! If you want nice things for yourself chances are; your neighbor does also! AS You love yourself If you hate yourself there is a good chance you would NOT be very loving to your neighbor! ONLY....

YoursTrue only Man can love.. Dogs Chickens Fish Cats Pigs Snails etc cannot love... ONLY...

YoursTrue only man is made in the image of God... God IS LOVE! God wants us to love each other! Jesus loves us so much he took our place in death! The love of Jesus saved us... Jesus rose from death because he was without sin.. Sin could NOT hold Jesus in the grave.. He rose NEVER....

YoursTrue never to die again! What happens is this.. We are IMMERSED into the risen, resurrected body of Jesus and AS LONG...

YoursTrue as long as we REMAIN in Jesus we also will rise to new life! We were saved BY LOVE! We were saved BY God... God is LOVE!

Keep considering that, DK. the idea of love your neighbor as yourself linked with the love of God.

 

[YoursTrue]

Jesus as a man is NOT A LATER MODEL.

There never was a time when Jesus was ever considered as anything but a man by the Jewish nation…

Scriptures tells us that Jesus was : A man who was CONSECRATED BY GOD - as it is shown in Acts 10:37-38.

In point of fact, his title is Jesus CHRIST… the ‘Christ’ meaning ‘ANOINTED ONE’. So his designation only came about in the circumstances of his anointment: A setting apart for kingship and/or Priesthood. And further, this setting apart was a special one because if was an anointment not with oil of the priest but of oil of gladness: the Holy Spirit of God; the Father.

It is worth pointing out that Jesus did no miracles until AFTER he was ANOINTED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AND WITH POWER.

This anointing allowed him to perform these miracles BY MEANS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OF HIS FATHER.

And if us also proved by the anointing of the apostles at Pentecost wherein they too gained extraordinary powers in language medicine learning teaching etc… all through the power of the Holy Spirit of the Father… ‘A GIFT FROM THE FATHER’.

Jesus said it himself… said that the things he did were because of the Father (his Father’s Spirit) working in him.

Jesus ALWAYS attributed his powers to the Father.

Jesus always attributed the spiritual truths he spoke to the people TO HIS FATHER teaching him what to say.

And since these realities are from the IMMEDIATE TIME of Jesus, it can hardly be claimed that they were mere presentations in the decades and centuries after Jesus died or traditions of those later eras.

For sure, everyone knew about Demi-Gods from the Egyptians, philistines, Greek, moabites, pessabites, etc… that the Hebrews, Israelites, Jews, encountered - but there was never a time when anyone of Jewish nation believed in such a personage as they’d belief was a single belief that there was ONLY ONE GOD and that ONLY GOD was YHWH, by name, God, by title.

It is TRINITARIAN belief, trinitarian false ideology, moscreants in the church (JUST AS JESUS PROPHESIESED!!) who changed the natural into the unnatural, the truth into a lie, the saviour into a SOMETIMES-God person!!

And in response to the ‘No other God beside(s) me’ reference, YHWH did not deny that there were other beliefs in which there were deities called ‘God’ and ‘Gods’.

I cannot understand how the very evidence is in the face of the senators but they still ignore it. I can only think that they must ignore it to keep their false ideology going.

The word and term ‘God’ is so mistakenly used that there must be an open agenda to purposely misuse it.

‘God’ is A TITLE….. it is just the same as ‘Monarch’, ‘Father’, ‘Ruler’, ‘King’, etc. There can be many whom are called so!

The term, ‘God’, is also an ADJECTIVE… and more so, a SUPERLATIVE ADJECTIVE’. So it can describe someone or something that is the utmost, the highest, the greatest, most glorious, highest of the high, all mighty, heroic, greatest…..

It is the usage and intent that determines the interpretation.

Clearly, the Jews (but more precisely, the Hebrews and later, Israelites) [“may have come to”] believed in ONLY ONE GOD as their deity ruler.

The Jews, as seen through Abraham, were among tribes and nations who believed the world was created, controlled, ruled over by MANY DEITIES … many GODS. Each ‘Deity’ was responsible for one of more aspect of the created world … such that these ‘Pagans’ PRAYED to a specific deity for something they wanted, desired, needed… They madd statuettes of what these deities are supposed to look like and agreed what aspect the deity is meant to represent.

However, it us to be noted that Abraham worshipped a God that DID NOT have a statuette … Abraham relied on FAITH in his ONLY ONE GOD for his needs. There was no need for a visual ‘God’ to pray to!

As Abraham built and guided his family in the faith of this one only God, he had to weave his way around and through other nations who were worshipping many deities… the attractiveness of the celebrations, the visualness, the immediacy of a chosen special guardian statuette God made it hard to think that only one ‘God’ could do ALL THINGS…. That:

• One GOD was GOD
• The Reverence paid to One ruling Deity was that ‘He’ was ‘Almighty’ in all things in the created world

(Exercise: Identify the title and the superlative adjective in the bullet point above!)

Through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, this one Deity remained their ONLY GOD.

But by the time of Moses, many of the (now ISRAELITES) had fallen to the visual and bodily wonders and gratification in the indulgence of the pagan tribes around them worshipping many personally selected deities and behaving outlandishly indulging in gratuitous pleasures.

Moses, separated himself from that situation, and by a happy accident, left off and out … But the eternal one God of his forefathers called him back (like as illustrated in Jonah and the fish and saving Nineveh) and, on returning, found the Israelites on the verge of going pagan. When he spoke to them about why “The God of his foreFathers” had instructed him to go worship in the wilderness, they asked him “WHICH GOD” had told him this… “What is his name??”.

You must see from this that at that time the ONLY GOD, the one deity of their belief DID NOT HAVE A NAME (a personal pronoun). This showed that the Israelites were confused because their pagan neighbours all had NAMES for their Gods… they called personally on the name of whichever one they desired… it made INDIVIDUAL IDENTIFICATION NECESSARY.

When Moses spoke to this deity, there was no need to PETSONSLLY IDENTIFY the ONE deity because where there is only one only a TITLE is required. We can see this in the British ruling monarchy where we only say, “The Queen”! We do not have identify the personal name of this monarch.

The deity told Moses that [because the children of Israel needed an identifier for him] he would give them a name… an eternal name.

He DEFINED HIMSELF as being ‘ALWAYS’!!!

• Always Was
• Always Am
• Always Will Be

And that because of this, his name will be ‘YHWH’, which is Hebrew and INTERPRETED AS simply: ‘I AM’ (the MEANING is ‘I have always been and will always be.,.!)

Now I get pleasurable goosebumps thinking about that name because such a simply term FULLY ENCOMPASSES ALL THAT THIS GOD IS… EVERYTHING GOOD GREAT WONDEROUS MIGHTY AND MAJESTIC.

So, YHWH told Moses that the Israelites should believe in ONLY HIM as their deity… worship HIM ALONE as their ONLY GOD!

And this very command is what separates the Israelites from all other pagan tribes they encountered : Worship the deity who is their mighty hero, their majestic king, their almighty one.

Of course, tgis fell apart later where the children of Israel DEMANDED a HUMAN FOCUS TOWARDS GOD for their worship… a HUMAN KING… just like the pagans around them. Note that YHWH did not APPROVE this demand but merely ALLOWED IT. This was because the Israelites were becoming hard eared over the direct commands from an invisible deity… the influence of the pagans sweetened them towards a human commander: a King… hence the ear of Saul, the first Israelite king! And we all know how that went!!!!

Was Jesus a human who could die in heaven, Soapy?

 

[Soapy]

Was Jesus a human who could die in heaven, Soapy?

What question is that?

It’s not a question… it’s a complete oxymoron!!!

Rephrase it to make sense or withdraw it!!!

 

[YoursTrue]

What question is that?

It’s not a question… it’s a complete oxymoron!!!

Rephrase it to make sense or withdraw it!!!

I will rephrase.
You believe Jesus is God, right? (Not 'a' God or a god, right?) John 1:1 states in many translations the following: New King James Version:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Let's look at that verse, Soapy. The Word was with God and the Word was God, according to that. Would you agree that shows there was God the Word that was WITH God?

 

[Soapy]

I will rephrase.
You believe Jesus is God, right? (Not 'a' God or a god, right?) John 1:1 states in many translations the following: New King James Version:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Let's look at that verse, Soapy. The Word was with God and the Word was God, according to that. Would you agree that shows there was God the Word that was WITH God?

Oh go away you silly person!

That pointless debate has been done to death and Trinitarians still get it wrong!

And I do not believe in any way that Jesus is God nor even ‘A’ God.

Jesus is a man consecrated BY GOD by his (Jesus’) anointment at the river Jordan as written in Acts 10:36-38.

 

[YoursTrue]

Oh go away you silly person!

That pointless debate has been done to death and Trinitarians still get it wrong!

And I do not believe in any way that Jesus is God nor even ‘A’ God.

Jesus is a man consecrated BY GOD by his (Jesus’) anointment at the river Jordan as written in Acts 10:36-38.

Did he come from heaven?

 

[Soapy]

Did he come from heaven?

Jesus was born as ‘The Seed of a woman’ as prophesied BY GOD in the beginning after Adam sinned.

Jesus was created in the same manner as Adam, the first of mankind. Hence Jesus is called, ‘The LAST ADAM’ because no one else would ever be created by the overshadowing of a unspirited body by the Holy Spirit of God:

• ‘And God blew the BREATH OF LIFE (the Spirit of Adam) into his (Adam’s) nostrils AND THE MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL’

So also the Angel said unto Mary:

• ‘The Holy Spirit will overshadow you do that the child to be born will be HOLY (sinless and righteous) and therefore be called THE SON OF GOD’ (paraphrased)

Note carefully that ADAM is ALSO CALLED ‘Son of God’…. (At least up until he sinned!)

And note even more carefully that Adam was:

• ‘Made in the IMAGE OF GOD’

So if you or anyone is going to say that Jesus IS GOD BECAUSE HE IS THE IMAGE OF GOD…. Well… then you need to say also that ADAM IS GOD BECAUSE HE WAS MADE IN THE IMAGE OF GOD!

But in truth, ‘Image of God’ is not about ‘features’ but about ‘Personality’… and those personalities are uppermost higher than the base animals that God also created. Indeed, how can it be said that Jesus is IMAGE OF GOD …AND IS GOD???

An image is NOT the thing it images…

Nor can an image do anything except what the source does FIRST!!!

And if therefore the image is secondary in action then it cannot be THE SOURCE of its own secondary actions.

Jesus said that he could only do what he FIRST SEES THE FATHER DOING… exactly what I just said above!

Indeed, Jesus said he was TAUGHT by the Father… If Jesus is God then why is GOD taught?? Who teaches GOD?

So your Jesus-God was taught by a higher power and greater authority….:

• ‘The Father is greater than I’!!

And, to answer your question directly! NO, Jesus did not come from Heaven!

There is no valid scriptures that says do not even implies such a nonsense claim. It is only Trinitarians desperate to ‘Bring God down to earth!’ who claim this blasphemous crass ideology!

Jesus said, ‘I am going TO the Father’. He did not say he was ‘Going BACK to the Father’.

And please do not quote the verse saying “No one has ascended in to heaven who didn’t first descend…”
This is FALSE rendering.

The verse really applies to the DEAD:

• ‘No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven.’
• “No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.”
• “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

All these varieties of translations are due to the attempts to create an illusion that Jesus came from Heaven: but none of them can agree how it is to be written because it is a FAKE VERSE created by Trinitarians!
But nonetheless the truth is that a person must First DIE be fore they can be raised up to Heaven - even Jesus Christ: the Son of man!

Because, of course, even Jesus Christ himself had to DIE before he could ascend to Heaven.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Jesus was born as ‘The Seed of a woman’ as prophesied BY GOD in the beginning after Adam sinned.

The seed of the woman is all of humanity. Seed is a plural, it means uncountable many.

 

[Soapy]

The seed of the woman is all of humanity. Seed is a plural, it means uncountable many.

No it is not.

The seed of ADAM is all [sinful] humanity…!!

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No it is not.

The seed of ADAM is all [sinful] humanity…!!

Not according to the story. There is not one progenitor for righteous people and a different progenitor for wicked people. There is just, mythologically speaking, Adam and Eve as the parents of all mankind.

 

[Soapy]

Not according to the story. There is not one progenitor for righteous people and a different progenitor for wicked people. There is just, mythologically speaking, Adam and Eve as the parents of all mankind.

No, you are incorrect. And you created a denial of a claim that I never made: I never said there was a progeny of righteous and unrighteousness persons…. Where did you read that in what I said???

EVERY HUMAN BEING HAS THE POTENTIAL TO SIN… We are all made in the image of God which means we have FREE WILL.

And having FREE WILL means we can CHOOSE TO DO GOOD OR CHOOSE TO DO BAD…

Adam was initially HOLY, SINLESS, doing all righteousness in the eyes of God: A True Son of God.

He was deceived by his wife (The SIN is Adam’s because it was to him that God commanded not to eat of the fruit of that tree…! Adam should have restrained himself from doing as his wife had put to him - to eat because she had eaten and had not [IMMEDIATELY] died)

I note you say ‘Mythologically’. This is a scriptural debate and as such we are to believe what the scriptures says (apart from the obvious parts that Trinitarians have mangled for their own sake!)

Adam was created SINLESS and HOLY; A Son of God!

Because he sinned before having any offspring, all offsprings are sinful … Some people trace their origin starting from Abraham or Noah… but even Abraham and Noah are offsprings of Adam and therefore bear sin in them!

But God was seeking a righteous, sinless, and holy offspring to be a sacrifice for the sin of Adam; hence all the scapegoat and annual rituals carried out by the Hebrew/Jews.

But, given time, no unblemished man was found… so, God put into action the contingency he had prophesied: The Seed of a woman.

Adam’s body was created from ‘dust of the earth’. As such it is inert, lifeless, without spirit.

It was only when God ‘breathed’ a Spirit into the body of Adam that Adam BECAME A LIVING SOUL.

I’m reading scriptures… do not call it mythology…!

Now take the birth of Jesus Christ: Sin is from the MALE; the Sperm. There is no sin in the egg in the woman. The egg is the equivalent of the ‘Dust of the earth’; it is lifeless, inert, without spirit … That's why it takes the ENSPIRITED SPERM to ENLIVEN the egg!

That is BASIC BIOLOGY!!!!!!

So you can see that since NO SPERM OF SINFUL MAN was used to enliven the egg in the body of Mary, the egg must have been enlivened by the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD:

• ‘The Holy Spirit shall overshadow you and therefore the child to be born will be HOLY, and called Son of God’

Hence, the created beings: Adam and Jesus, were created by supernatural means… by the power of God and therefore, God being holy, the created bring us also holy, sinless, BOTH IMAGE OF GOD (in the day of their creation: difference? Adam sinned; Jesus did not)…

Jesus Christ: The LAST ADAM … Adam the first - and - Adam the last… because no other human being would ever be created that way.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

EVERY HUMAN BEING HAS THE POTENTIAL TO SIN… We are all made in the image of God which means we have FREE WILL.

Sure. We all have an evil inclination, our animal instincts, and a good inclination, being made in the image of God. Some people are wicked. Some are righteous. And a whole heck of a lot of people are mediocre. To say that Adam is only the father of the wicked is just not true.

 

[Soapy]

Sure. We all have an evil inclination, our animal instincts, and a good inclination, being made in the image of God. Some people are wicked. Some are righteous. And a whole heck of a lot of people are mediocre. To say that Adam is only the father of the wicked is just not true.

There you go again…. I think this is the end of our discussion on this point.

Thank you for showing me your lack of realisation of scriptural matters.

 

[YoursTrue]

Jesus was born as ‘The Seed of a woman’ as prophesied BY GOD in the beginning after Adam sinned.

Jesus was created in the same manner as Adam, the first of mankind. Hence Jesus is called, ‘The LAST ADAM’ because no one else would ever be created by the overshadowing of a unspirited body by the Holy Spirit of God:

• ‘And God blew the BREATH OF LIFE (the Spirit of Adam) into his (Adam’s) nostrils AND THE MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL’

So also the Angel said unto Mary:

• ‘The Holy Spirit will overshadow you do that the child to be born will be HOLY (sinless and righteous) and therefore be called THE SON OF GOD’ (paraphrased)

Note carefully that ADAM is ALSO CALLED ‘Son of God’…. (At least up until he sinned!)

And note even more carefully that Adam was:

• ‘Made in the IMAGE OF GOD’

So if you or anyone is going to say that Jesus IS GOD BECAUSE HE IS THE IMAGE OF GOD…. Well… then you need to say also that ADAM IS GOD BECAUSE HE WAS MADE IN THE IMAGE OF GOD!

But in truth, ‘Image of God’ is not about ‘features’ but about ‘Personality’… and those personalities are uppermost higher than the base animals that God also created. Indeed, how can it be said that Jesus is IMAGE OF GOD …AND IS GOD???

An image is NOT the thing it images…

Nor can an image do anything except what the source does FIRST!!!

And if therefore the image is secondary in action then it cannot be THE SOURCE of its own secondary actions.

Jesus said that he could only do what he FIRST SEES THE FATHER DOING… exactly what I just said above!

Indeed, Jesus said he was TAUGHT by the Father… If Jesus is God then why is GOD taught?? Who teaches GOD?

So your Jesus-God was taught by a higher power and greater authority….:

• ‘The Father is greater than I’!!

And, to answer your question directly! NO, Jesus did not come from Heaven!

There is no valid scriptures that says do not even implies such a nonsense claim. It is only Trinitarians desperate to ‘Bring God down to earth!’ who claim this blasphemous crass ideology!

Jesus said, ‘I am going TO the Father’. He did not say he was ‘Going BACK to the Father’.

And please do not quote the verse saying “No one has ascended in to heaven who didn’t first descend…”
This is FALSE rendering.

The verse really applies to the DEAD:

• ‘No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven.’
• “No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.”
• “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

All these varieties of translations are due to the attempts to create an illusion that Jesus came from Heaven: but none of them can agree how it is to be written because it is a FAKE VERSE created by Trinitarians!
But nonetheless the truth is that a person must First DIE be fore they can be raised up to Heaven - even Jesus Christ: the Son of man!

Because, of course, even Jesus Christ himself had to DIE before he could ascend to Heaven.

Ok, ty for elucidating that. So let's go back to John 1:1 for a moment. God was there in the beginning, right? And the Word was WITH God, and the Word is said to be (in quite a few translations), God. So the Word God was WITH God. How do you see that?

 

[YoursTrue]

Sure. We all have an evil inclination, our animal instincts, and a good inclination, being made in the image of God. Some people are wicked. Some are righteous. And a whole heck of a lot of people are mediocre. To say that Adam is only the father of the wicked is just not true.

Some people learn what righteousness is and do their best once they learn, to adhere to that. Of course, the Law of Moses was not imposed on anyone until the Israelites accepted it under Moses. So God told them what He considered righteous or unrighteous.

 

[YoursTrue]

There you go again…. I think this is the end of our discussion on this point.

Thank you for showing me your lack of realisation of scriptural matters.

The genealogy of Jesus goes back to...ADAM.