Water into wine: natural or supernatural?

[Banach-Tarski Paradox]

Saying it is just “imaginary” doesn’t do any justice on maths and numbers created understanding that weren’t possible without these maths.

The phrase “just imaginary” does not appear in my post.

And as for my own words, why doesn’t it do justice?

I don’t understand. Using your imagination is considered a good thing in mathematics.

The only problem that I see is the word “just”. But that wasn’t me. That was you,

It’s like if I say something about mythology, and somebody else replies using the phrase “mere mythology”.

I’m not the one minimizing mythology. That’s the other guy.

Am I not doing justice to something if I call it mythology?

Of course not.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

You may find 3-word associations to food, animals, plants, weapons, etc, and quoting passages outside of gospel of John (eg Psalms, Isaiah, etc), may have some sorts of meanings to you, and repeating them over and over again...still don't make it relevant to the thread's topic.

It is completely off-topic. And it isn't relevant the topic, so why keep repeating these word associations again, when I have already disagree with you?

Repeating the same thing over and over again, won't make it any more persuasive than the 1st time you wrote these list of associations.

All I am questioning (in this thread) is whether turning water into wine can naturally occur, or can it only happen supernaturally?

Are you sure that you can hear the word "wine"?

Does this verse suggest the possibility of the word "wine" not being heard:
"And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel." Hosea.

Does this verse also suggest the word not being heard:
"And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness". Isaiah


The Bible repeatedly states the words of the law are not being heard, not understood. I can show more examples of that fact.


So if I am trying to explain to you about a different way of hearing the word "wine" which is verifiable, then why is that such a problem?

The word "wine" is a word of the law. As in the Bread, Oil, and Wine being according to the law.


So is this natural, or supernatural (unknown)?

If you can't hear the word, then you would not be able to discuss it.

 

[viole]

This thread is about whether such a miracle can occur naturally, or whether it is story invented by a person who has no understanding of how wine are made.

In the gospel of John, John 2 narrated that Jesus attended the wedding at Cana, where they have no wedding feast have no wine. So Jesus made wine, by turning water into wine.

Other than John, the other 3 gospels make no mention of this event.

You will have to ask yourself, can this miracle happen? Can water possibly turn into wine, or is this just a story, another parable or allegory? Or is it fairytale or myth, where the supernatural (like magic) is possible?

From my perspective, and my understanding of chemistry, this cannot be possible, let alone probable. This would only be possible if you believe in miracle, a supernatural occurrence. That's just simply blind faith, a conviction that the story is true.

People have been making wine, as far back as the Neolithic period, as well as the later periods (Bronze Age, Iron Age).

To understand wine making, you have to realize water are just basically molecule of 2 hydrogen atoms bonded to 1 oxygen atom.

But of course, there are type of water may have salt (eg sea water) and all sort of minerals (hence today, we can buy and drink mineral water). Plus, instead of the normal hydrogen atoms, it could be its isotope - deuterium, where the water known as "heavy water".

My point is that none of these types of water can turn into wine.

Wine required not only grapes, it also take time to turn grape juice and fermented the natural sugar in the grape into alcohol, and this chemical reaction can only occur if there are yeasts. That's how fermentation work for any alcoholic drinks (eg wine, beer, brandy, mead, etc).

Yeasts that what would turn sugar into alcohol, yeasts are actually unicellular fungi, more specifically

Fermentation is what distinguish wine from fruit juice.

So not only you would need grapes, you would need yeasts, to make wine.

Wine don't naturally come from water. Water has no grape juice, no sugar, no alcohol.

So Jesus' miracle a myth, or do you still think that water can turn into wine?

Agree...disagree. Your thoughts please.

Since wine is about 85% water, probably all He did was to add 15% of something else to make the difference. Surely within the skills expected by an almighty God, or at least a third of Him/Them.

And much less impressive than, say, parting a sea. Or living three days inside a big tuna.

Ciao

- viole

 

[gnostic]

Since wine is about 85% water, probably all He did was to add 15% of something else to make the difference.

It depends on the composition contents...but it’s about right…but wine still required grape and alcohol. And the main way of producing alcohol are through yeasts and the sugar content in the grape juice, that are period of time, for this fermentation process to occur. This is the primary fermentation process.

Yeasts are certain species of unicellular fungi, the most common species is the Saccharomyces cerevisiae. It often grow on the skin of ripe grapes. Fermentation start shortly after grapes are crushed or pressed, mixing yeasts with the grape natural sugar. The yeasts will convert sugar into alcohol and carbon dioxide.

Primary fermentation is stopped in the following ways (that I can recall at the top of my head):

• it run out of sugar to convert;
• too high level of alcohol will be toxic (yeasts can only tolerate so much alcohol before it start killing them);
• the winemakers removed the grape skins to stop the fermenting process earlier;
• the winemakers lower the temperature to kill the yeasts

The last two, is done because winemakers want only certain amounts of alcohol in the wine, as a matter of “taste” they wanted to achieve, by keeping some sugar.

Once the sufficient number of alcohol are produce, secondary fermentation occur, which allow the alcohol permeate the grape juice. This is usually done by storing the wine and letting it age.

Using God can doing anything, whatever he like, but that’s like introducing magic.

An adult human body is composed of 60 to 65 percent water. But water is not what make a person living, their cells are. The water there to keep the tissues alive and healthy, because the cells are always working, and works produced heat. Cells will start if overheated and become dehydrated, thereby breaking down the cells. Without continuing to drinking the water, to what are lost through heat, sweat and urinating, the organs and other tissues will start to die, including the brain cells.

water isn’t the only thing to keep our cells healthy. It required oxygen (the air we breath) and nutrients (energy sources that come from the food we eat). Even when we are resting, our body is working non-stop, because the metabolism are working nonstop.

Think of car that require water or coolant to regulate the temperature of engine, so that engine won’t break down or explode from overheating.

The cells are what really make organisms “living”. Water is essential for survival, but water isn’t alive, the cells are alive.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

This is how it works:

Because as the judgments in the Bible are also as the waters in the Bible:
"But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream". Amos.

And the mighty stream is as mighty wine:
"Then the Lord awaked as one out of sleep, and like a mighty man that shouteth by reason of wine". Psalm

And the river is as oil:
"Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord God". Ezekiel

And the corn is as the sand of the sea:
"And Joseph gathered corn as the sand of the sea, very much, until he left numbering; for it was without number". Genesis.


Then it is possible to hear the words corn, oil, and wine in a different way which is verified.
"And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel". Hosea.


So it is possible to hear the water that is wine, according to a specific law.

A law that I noticed Muhammad understands:

"And leave the sea as a furrow (divided): for they are a host (destined) to be drowned." Quran.

He seems to know about the Sea of the Corn field. The Sea that is higher than the whole Earth because the Sea is one of the waters of judgements, and the waters are as the heavens. Just as the corn, oil, and wine are also as these heavens.


Sea - River - Stream
Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn - Olive - Grape
Field - Oliveyard - Vineyard



I can notice the Sea roars, as the fields rejoice:

"Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof: let the fields rejoice, and all that is therein". Chronicles.

They overlap. It is logical. These are simple facts.


I don't know why what i am saying is not being understood.

 

[viole]

Using God can doing anything, whatever he like, but that’s like introducing magic.

Yes and no. But why is that a problem?

That is what a miracle is. If you had a natural explanation for what God did, they would not be miracles. So, you are basically claiming that theists cannot invoke miracles, because miracles are not possible. Which is equivalent to claiming that theists cannot invoke an omnipotent being, because omnipotence is not possible. I expect you will have some problems to sell that.

This is the definition of what a miracle is: something that is still logically possible, but it is not nomologically possible.

Nomology relates with the laws of nature, while logic relates to, well, the laws of logic. So, if something is nomological, then it must also be logical.

The contrary is not necessarily the case: flying pigs are not nomological, but they are still logically possible, since they do not cause any apparent logical contradiction. So, I see no problem for an omnipotent being to be able to shield gravity around pigs. However, God could not possibly create married bachelors, because they are simply absurd.

So, what is the problem? The problem is not that water cannot be converted into wine if there were a God with unlimited power. That is absolutely possible. The problem is that there is no evidence whatsoever of any of those reported violations of natural laws.

Ciao

- viole

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Yes and no. But why is that a problem?

Magic is a nonexplanation word. It is not an answer because it doesn't say anything. It is a word that talks around an answer, magic being a word for unknown how.

That is why nobody could ever explain magic, because magic means unknown. Tricks can be explained but explaining magic is like a married bachelor. So by definition an explanation of being magic would be literally pointless.

Could that be the problem?

That is what a miracle is. If you had a natural explanation for what God did, they would not be miracles.

The words said in the Bible can be true without having any unknown (magic).

Speech is a natural explanation of what is said in the Bible.

So the question is, how can one word jump to a seemingly unrelated word within a sentence?

 

[lewismilton]

This thread is about whether such a miracle can occur naturally, or whether it is story invented by a person who has no understanding of how wine are made.

In the gospel of John, John 2 narrated that Jesus attended the wedding at Cana, where they have no wedding feast have no wine. So Jesus made wine, by turning water into wine.

Other than John, the other 3 gospels make no mention of this event.

You will have to ask yourself, can this miracle happen? Can water possibly turn into wine, or is this just a story, another parable or allegory? Or is it fairytale or myth, where the supernatural (like magic) is possible?

From my perspective, and my understanding of chemistry, this cannot be possible, let alone probable. This would only be possible if you believe in miracle, a supernatural occurrence. That's just simply blind faith, a conviction that the story is true.

People have been making wine, as far back as the Neolithic period, as well as the later periods (Bronze Age, Iron Age).

To understand wine making, you have to realize water are just basically molecule of 2 hydrogen atoms bonded to 1 oxygen atom.

But of course, there are various types of water, ranging from saltwater (e.g., seawater) to mineral-rich options like those available for purchase today, such as mineral water. Additionally, water can contain different isotopes like deuterium, known as "heavy water." Speaking of quality and variety, it's akin to experiencing the exceptional Lux Row Distillers customer service—where every detail, like the purity of water, matters.

My point is that none of these types of water can turn into wine.

Wine required not only grapes, it also take time to turn grape juice and fermented the natural sugar in the grape into alcohol, and this chemical reaction can only occur if there are yeasts. That's how fermentation work for any alcoholic drinks (eg wine, beer, brandy, mead, etc).

Yeasts that what would turn sugar into alcohol, yeasts are actually unicellular fungi, more specifically

Fermentation is what distinguish wine from fruit juice.

So not only you would need grapes, you would need yeasts, to make wine.

Wine don't naturally come from water. Water has no grape juice, no sugar, no alcohol.

So Jesus' miracle a myth, or do you still think that water can turn into wine?

Agree...disagree. Your thoughts please.

How did Jesus, assuming no one had written the Harry Potter book of the day known as "The Bible," transform water into wine within just an hour or two—a process that typically requires 3 weeks to 1 month scientifically? Was the vessel secretly switched by an accomplice, like Judas, from behind a curtain while Jesus had everyone's attention? Did Judas threaten to expose this miracle to Caesar Augustus, thus betraying Jesus? My main curiosity lies in the transformation of water into wine. Was the Lord capable of altering natural scientific processes?

 

[Pogo]

Was the Lord capable of altering natural scientific processes?

Good summary of the OP.

 

[Bear Wild]

This thread is about whether such a miracle can occur naturally, or whether it is story invented by a person who has no understanding of how wine are made.

In the gospel of John, John 2 narrated that Jesus attended the wedding at Cana, where they have no wedding feast have no wine. So Jesus made wine, by turning water into wine.

Other than John, the other 3 gospels make no mention of this event.

You will have to ask yourself, can this miracle happen? Can water possibly turn into wine, or is this just a story, another parable or allegory? Or is it fairytale or myth, where the supernatural (like magic) is possible?

From my perspective, and my understanding of chemistry, this cannot be possible, let alone probable. This would only be possible if you believe in miracle, a supernatural occurrence. That's just simply blind faith, a conviction that the story is true.

People have been making wine, as far back as the Neolithic period, as well as the later periods (Bronze Age, Iron Age).

To understand wine making, you have to realize water are just basically molecule of 2 hydrogen atoms bonded to 1 oxygen atom.

But of course, there are type of water may have salt (eg sea water) and all sort of minerals (hence today, we can buy and drink mineral water). Plus, instead of the normal hydrogen atoms, it could be its isotope - deuterium, where the water known as "heavy water".

My point is that none of these types of water can turn into wine.

Wine required not only grapes, it also take time to turn grape juice and fermented the natural sugar in the grape into alcohol, and this chemical reaction can only occur if there are yeasts. That's how fermentation work for any alcoholic drinks (eg wine, beer, brandy, mead, etc).

Yeasts that what would turn sugar into alcohol, yeasts are actually unicellular fungi, more specifically

Fermentation is what distinguish wine from fruit juice.

So not only you would need grapes, you would need yeasts, to make wine.

Wine don't naturally come from water. Water has no grape juice, no sugar, no alcohol.

So Jesus' miracle a myth, or do you still think that water can turn into wine?

Agree...disagree. Your thoughts please.

THERE IS NO SUPERNATURAL which is a concept created in western culture during the invented separation of man from nature. Most cultures do not even have a word like nature because there is no separation between them and the rest of the world!

 

[Pogo]

THERE IS NO SUPERNATURAL which is a concept created in western culture during the invented separation of man from nature. Most cultures do not even have a word like nature because there is no separation between them and the rest of the world!

So not using those western concepts, what is the story?

 

[Bear Wild]

So not using those western concepts, what is the story?

It is a metaphor of transformation and not a story of actual conversation of water into wine. I am not Christian but one could easily see this as transforming the water into the same symbolic meaning as wine for instance. No grapes needed

 

[Pogo]

It is a metaphor of transformation and not a story of actual conversation of water into wine. I am not Christian but one could easily see this as transforming the water into the same symbolic meaning as wine for instance. No grapes needed

Works for me too.

 

[PureX]

How did Jesus, assuming no one had written the Harry Potter book of the day known as "The Bible," transform water into wine within just an hour or two—a process that typically requires 3 weeks to 1 month scientifically?

He did it exactly the same way as Harry Potter. Via literary license.

Was the vessel secretly switched by an accomplice, like Judas, from behind a curtain while Jesus had everyone's attention? Did Judas threaten to expose this miracle to Caesar Augustus, thus betraying Jesus? My main curiosity lies in the transformation of water into wine. Was the Lord capable of altering natural scientific processes?

I think as the story unfolds, we discover that such feats were not Jesus' doing, but God's doing at Jesus' request.

 

[gnostic]

Was the vessel secretly switched by an accomplice, like Judas, from behind a curtain while Jesus had everyone's attention?

That would be definitely be fraudulent claim of miracle, or trickery, like sleight of hand…it would not be supernatural at all, and certainly not miraculous.

Another possibility, like other miracles like healing and exorcising demons that people were pay to act as if they were blind or having other diseases, or being possessed by demons, and then by pretending to be healed.

We know that such performances have occurred today, with preachers pretending to having powers like Jesus, making money out of believers. But some preachers may not be in for the money, but for drawing attentions, to glorify oneself, or the powers they have over others, could be intoxicating.

i don’t know what the motivation for false miracles.

But I need to remind you, that the gospel of John was composed lot later than the other 3 gospels, the one that narrated the miracle at Cana. So it could be just the author’s own literary invention.

These are all possible, where there are no real miracles, no supernaturally occurring.

My main curiosity lies in the transformation of water into wine. Was the Lord capable of altering natural scientific processes?

I have not witnessed any miracle, but in the last 25 years, I have increasing doubts about miracles.

About 30 and 40 years, I have had no doubts about any of the miracles, I had never questioned any of the gospels “veracity“ of such miracles.

But since becoming agnostic, I have been questioning things that I have originally believed, because I didn’t look beyond what I have read and accepted.

My first real doubt, actually began with the one of the messianic signs - the supposed sign of messiah’s virgin concept and birth, where Matthew 1:23 cited a sign from Isaiah 7 (7:14 to be more precise). What I didn’t realise before the year 2000, was there more to Isaiah’s original sign, the gospel’s author omitted the rest of the sign, the 3 missing verses, Isaiah 7:15-17. By re-reading the whole sign of Isaiah, I came to realisation that the sign had nothing to do with the messiah, nothing to do with Mary and Jesus, and nothing to do with miraculous conception & birth.

Basically, the real author of the gospel of Matthew, have selectively cut-and-paste only the passage he wanted to convey…motivation, possibly propaganda for the new, budding religion.

In the beginning of my 3 years as agnosticism, I wasn’t questioning its historical accuracy or its scientific accuracy (eg creation, flood), but the validity of the messianic prophecies as cited in the gospels. It is only from 2003 and onwards that I began doubting the creation and flood narratives, after joining my first internet forum.

I didn’t question the miracle of water into wine, until last year, when I have taken some interests on how wine and beer were made. My thoughts weren’t about John 2 last year, when I researched about wine making. My thoughts were about the grapes used (for red & wine wine), where they were far & cultivated, how they were fermented, and so on.

i have only created this topic earlier this year, ad hoc.

 

[shunyadragon]

This thread is about whether such a miracle can occur naturally, or whether it is story invented by a person who has no understanding of how wine are made.

In the gospel of John, John 2 narrated that Jesus attended the wedding at Cana, where they have no wedding feast have no wine. So Jesus made wine, by turning water into wine.

Other than John, the other 3 gospels make no mention of this event.

You will have to ask yourself, can this miracle happen? Can water possibly turn into wine, or is this just a story, another parable or allegory? Or is it fairytale or myth, where the supernatural (like magic) is possible?

From my perspective, and my understanding of chemistry, this cannot be possible, let alone probable. This would only be possible if you believe in miracle, a supernatural occurrence. That's just simply blind faith, a conviction that the story is true.

People have been making wine, as far back as the Neolithic period, as well as the later periods (Bronze Age, Iron Age).

To understand wine making, you have to realize water are just basically molecule of 2 hydrogen atoms bonded to 1 oxygen atom.

But of course, there are type of water may have salt (eg sea water) and all sort of minerals (hence today, we can buy and drink mineral water). Plus, instead of the normal hydrogen atoms, it could be its isotope - deuterium, where the water known as "heavy water".

My point is that none of these types of water can turn into wine.

Wine required not only grapes, it also take time to turn grape juice and fermented the natural sugar in the grape into alcohol, and this chemical reaction can only occur if there are yeasts. That's how fermentation work for any alcoholic drinks (eg wine, beer, brandy, mead, etc).

Yeasts that what would turn sugar into alcohol, yeasts are actually unicellular fungi, more specifically

Fermentation is what distinguish wine from fruit juice.

So not only you would need grapes, you would need yeasts, to make wine.

Wine don't naturally come from water. Water has no grape juice, no sugar, no alcohol.

So Jesus' miracle a myth, or do you still think that water can turn into wine?

Agree...disagree. Your thoughts please.

Italians do not need grapes.

 

[gnostic]

Italians do not need grapes.

What wine would that be?

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

What wine would that be?

'whine', not wine...

 

[shunyadragon]

What wine would that be?

It was a sarcastic remark of Mafia corruption in the recent history of Italian wines,

 

[gnostic]

It was a sarcastic remark of Mafia corruption in the recent history of Italian wines,

Well, I don’t know the history of the mafia, so I clearly didn’t understand your sarcasm.