Water into wine: natural or supernatural?

[WonderingWorrier]

You are quoting verses from Psalms, Ezekiel, Horsea, etc, which really have nothing to do what it say in John 2, about Jesus. These quotes are irrelevance to Jesus' miracle at Cana.

I know every well about literature using similes and metaphors, because I used to love reading myths. Other religions use such literary device, to compare something to something very different, and they often appeared in poetry and hymns (songs), and scriptural literature.

If Jesus' miracle was merely a metaphor or allegory, then the miracle didn't happen at all.

Are you saying the wedding at Cana - the miracle - was merely an allegory?

I would agree with you if are saying that (allegory). Because water cannot turn into wine, not in this reality...that's not mere opinion, it's a fact because we know how wine can be made today.

The quotes are relevant to defining the word wine (the whole bible can be relevant to defining the word).

When we look at "where" the words are, miracles then have a different definition. Because its not an unknown blank explanation of being magic. Miracles being specific word placement can be seen.


Are you able to do a Bible word search and tell me where these three different animals are located: Cattle, Goats, and Sheep.

Can you tell me which one is with corn, which one is with oil, and which one is with wine?

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

 

[gnostic]

I don’t think anyone can turn water into wine. I do think God, the Creator of heaven and earth can turn water into wine. It doesn’t seem like a monumental feat for One outside of the physical realm, One who created the universe and raises the dead. I don’t consider it magic at all, rather omnipotence and infinite knowledge beyond finite human comprehension.

Sure, you can believe whatever you like.

What you have "accepted" to be true with your belief, that's what they called "FAITH" is.

Faith-based belief are nothing more than just having personal opinion.

Belief, like opinion, can be wrong. Especially if the evidence demonstrated the belief to be wrong.

That's the problem with beliefs and faiths, you can accept just about anything to be true, because of personal biases.

But believing in god being able to do anything and everything will be no different from Zeus hurling lightning, or Apollo healing the people with diseases, or Ra sailing the Solar Boat across the sky or the jinns are being from smokeless fire, or fairy godmother turning a pumpkin into horses and carriage, and so on.

You believing in god of your Bible, are no different from all these divine or spiritual beings doing super natural magic, which you call “miracle”. They are called superstitions. They are make-believe, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[gnostic]

The quotes are relevant to defining the word wine (the whole bible can be relevant to defining the word).

When we look at "where" the words are, miracles then have a different definition. Because its not an unknown blank explanation of being magic. Miracles being specific word placement can be seen.


Are you able to do a Bible word search and tell me where these three different animals are located: Cattle, Goats, and Sheep.

Can you tell me which one is with corn, which one is with oil, and which one is with wine?

They are not definition.

They are similes, poets, bards and religious people used them all the time. While they are fine, to be used in poems and in scriptures like the Bible & the Qur’an, they are utterly useless in the real world.

In Norse mythology, they are called kennings, and there are hundreds of them. Heimdall’s head is a sword; Freyr‘s horse is a ship; Freyja’s tears as gold: Ymir’s head as the sky, Ymir’s flesh as mountains, Ymir’s blood is the sea; and so on.

If you compare your Bible passages you had quoted, then the Bible is no more plausible than the kennings found in Snorri Sturluson’s Prose Edda. If taken literally, it make the authors of Psalms, Ezekiel, etc, as primitive and superstitious as Snorri, it make them appeared backward and stupid.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

They are not definition.

Is definition not: "a statement of the meaning of a word or a word group or a sign or symbol"?

Definition of DEFINITION

a statement of the meaning of a word or word group or a sign or symbol; a statement expressing the essential nature of something; a product of defining… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

They are similes, poets, bards and religious people used them all the time. While they are fine, to be used in poems and in scriptures like the Bible & the Qur’an, they are utterly useless in the real world.

In Norse mythology, they are called kennings, and there are hundreds of them. Heimdall’s head is a sword; Freyr‘s horse is a ship; Freyja’s tears as gold: Ymir’s head as the sky, Ymir’s flesh as mountains, Ymir’s blood is the sea; and so on.

If you compare your Bible passages you had quoted, then the Bible is no more plausible than the kennings found in Snorri Sturluson’s Prose Edda. If taken literally, it make the authors of Psalms, Ezekiel, etc, as primitive and superstitious as Snorri, it make them appeared backward and stupid.

If the meaning of the word kenning is "to understand", is it possible that you only think they are backwards and stupid because you dont understand?

I thought this description of kennings was interesting:
"Kennings are circumlocutions where two nouns (as a compound or genitive(s)) refer to a third, unspoken noun. Elements can be substituted with further kennings". Skaldic Project - kennings


Elements can be substituted with further kennings has my attention.

The Bible works the same way.

Its like saying 1 - 2 - 3
And saying A - B- C

Understanding both are saying the same things allows "1 - B - 3" to also be seen as a correct saying. Even if it then sounds like nonsense to some. Some might not be able to explain the change and call it magic.

1 - B - 3 would be correct
1 - 2 - B would be incorrect

The elements need to be in their original positions to be correct. As they are still in alignment.


Like I asked if you could locate the positions of three animals: cattle, goats, and sheep.
Can you tell me which one is with corn? Which one is with oil?, and which one is with wine?

I could also ask you to locate the positions of these three weapons: spears, swords, and bows.
Likewise can you tell me which one is with corn, which one is with oil? and which one is with wine?

I could also ask if you can further confirm the positioning of the spears, swords, and bows in another way.
Which one is with cattle, which one is with goats, and which one is with sheep?

So having nine different words to observe: corn, oil, wine, cattle, goats, sheep, spears, swords, and bows. Three groups of three words.
Are you able to see and confirm the word "wine" is in an alignment with its substitutes?

Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine
Cattle - Goats - Sheep
Spear - Sword - Bow

 

[gnostic]

Is definition not: "a statement of the meaning of a word or a word group or a sign or symbol"?

Definition of DEFINITION

a statement of the meaning of a word or word group or a sign or symbol; a statement expressing the essential nature of something; a product of defining… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

If the meaning of the word kenning is "to understand", is it possible that you only think they are backwards and stupid because you dont understand?

I thought this description of kennings was interesting:
"Kennings are circumlocutions where two nouns (as a compound or genitive(s)) refer to a third, unspoken noun. Elements can be substituted with further kennings". Skaldic Project - kennings


Elements can be substituted with further kennings has my attention.

The Bible works the same way.

Its like saying 1 - 2 - 3
And saying A - B- C

Understanding both are saying the same things allows "1 - B - 3" to also be seen as a correct saying. Even if it then sounds like nonsense to some. Some might not be able to explain the change and call it magic.

1 - B - 3 would be correct
1 - 2 - B would be incorrect

The elements need to be in their original positions to be correct. As they are still in alignment.


Like I asked if you could locate the positions of three animals: cattle, goats, and sheep.
Can you tell me which one is with corn? Which one is with oil?, and which one is with wine?

I could also ask you to locate the positions of these three weapons: spears, swords, and bows.
Likewise can you tell me which one is with corn, which one is with oil? and which one is with wine?

I could also ask if you can further confirm the positioning of the spears, swords, and bows in another way.
Which one is with cattle, which one is with goats, and which one is with sheep?

So having nine different words to observe: corn, oil, wine, cattle, goats, sheep, spears, swords, and bows. Three groups of three words.
Are you able to see and confirm the word "wine" is in an alignment with its substitutes?

Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine
Cattle - Goats - Sheep
Spear - Sword - Bow

All of these still has nothing to do with the miracle of turning water into wine as narrated in John 2.

You are quoting stuff from the OT, which again has nothing to do with the miracle at the wedding at Cana.

You are changing the subject, on matters that have no contexts in John 2.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Since water may not have been very potable back then, adding something to make it cleaner helped. I think of it as Jesus making things that are not good and making them good.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

All of these still has nothing to do with the miracle of turning water into wine as narrated in John 2.

You are quoting stuff from the OT, which again has nothing to do with the miracle at the wedding at Cana.

You are changing the subject, on matters that have no contexts in John 2.

I'm not changing the subject, I was defining the subject.

Bread, Oil, and Wine are as three things.
Just as Flesh, Bone, and Blood are another three things.

Bread - Oil - Wine
Flesh - Bone - Blood

Can you understand the bread is the flesh, and the wine is the blood?

Look:

Bread - Oil - Wine
Flesh - Bone - Blood

As you can see the bread is as the flesh, and the wine is as the blood,

And the oil is as the bones:
"As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones". Psalm 109:18

As the sword is also the bones:
"As with a sword in my bones, mine enemies reproach me; while they say daily unto me, Where is thy God?" Psalm 42:10


Bread - Oil - Wine
Flesh - Bone - Blood
Spear - Sword - Bow

Therefore Oil and Sword can substitute each other because they share the same position.

Look:

"The words of his mouth were smoother than butter, but war was in his heart: his words were softer than oil, yet were they drawn swords". Psalm 55:21

Can you understand this?

 

[gnostic]

I'm not changing the subject, I was defining the subject.

Bread, Oil, and Wine are as three things.
Just as Flesh, Bone, and Blood are another three things.

Bread - Oil - Wine
Flesh - Bone - Blood

Can you understand the bread is the flesh, and the wine is the blood?

Look:

Bread - Oil - Wine
Flesh - Bone - Blood

As you can see the bread is as the flesh, and the wine is as the blood,

And the oil is as the bones:
"As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones". Psalm 109:18

As the sword is also the bones:
"As with a sword in my bones, mine enemies reproach me; while they say daily unto me, Where is thy God?" Psalm 42:10


Bread - Oil - Wine
Flesh - Bone - Blood
Spear - Sword - Bow

Therefore Oil and Sword can substitute each other because they share the same position.

Look:

"The words of his mouth were smoother than butter, but war was in his heart: his words were softer than oil, yet were they drawn swords". Psalm 55:21

Can you understand this?

Again, it has nothing to do with John 2 narrative.

The gospel is only talking of two things - water & wine.

There are no oil, bread, flesh, blood, bones, sword mention in any part of John 2…so yes, you are changing the subject that.

I see that we are getting anywhere in this thread, so I am letting it go. Perhaps you should start a new thread.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Again, it has nothing to do with John 2 narrative.

The word "wine" is used 233 times in the Bible (in ways that may also sound strange to you). That is narrative/context which you are dismissing.

I showed you the word "wife" being as a grape vine, and grape and wine being in the same word position as sheep, hence when I see in Revelation saying "the marriage of the Lamb" it does make very clear logical sense to me.

In Revelation it also talks about the wine in the presence of the lamb.

The gospel is only talking of two things - water & wine.

There are no oil, bread, flesh, blood, bones, sword mention in any part of John 2…so yes, you are changing the subject that.

I showed you according to the Bible different levels/heights of water, and which one is as wine.

Sea - River - Stream
Bread - Oil - Wine

Then I was showing you multiple different word layers that overlap, as I was further explaining the concept of exactly how according to the Bible one thing can be as another.

The things I have said and shown could be confirmed if you looked.

I see that we are getting anywhere in this thread, so I am letting it go. Perhaps you should start a new thread.

I see you want me to leave.

 

[gnostic]

I see you want me to leave.

No, I don't want you to leave.

What I want you to do, is actually start addressing thread's topic, which are any of the miracles of Jesus that supposedly perform, but more specifically the miracle of John 2.

I am asking and have been asking about whether such miracles are possible or not.

What I don't want to talk about every single instance of wine like in the Old Testament, that have nothing to do with any miracle involving wine.

Because that exactly what you have been doing - avoiding the topic at hand, changing the subject, talking about wine in the Old Testament that have nothing to do with any miracle.

But yes, I am getting frustrated and irritated by avoidance of the subject. To put it very bluntly to you: You are talking BS.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

What I want you to do, is actually start addressing thread's topic, which are any of the miracles of Jesus that supposedly perform, but more specifically the miracle of John 2.

Like healing the deaf, those who can't hear the words of the book?

"And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness". Isaiah.
Or healing the lame?

Or like healing the lame, making the crooked straight?

"The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools". Psalm

I am asking and have been asking about whether such miracles are possible or not.

What I don't want to talk about every single instance of wine like in the Old Testament, that have nothing to do with any miracle involving wine.

Because that exactly what you have been doing - avoiding the topic at hand, changing the subject, talking about wine in the Old Testament that have nothing to do with any miracle.

Yeah they are possible, but perhaps not in the way that you think.


The Bible speaks of fields, oliveyards, and vineyards (three different things):

"And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants". Samuel.

And it speaks of corn, olives, and grapes (three different things)
And it speaks of bread, oil, and wine (three different things).

Nine different things can be seen as just three different things:

The Bread is of the Corn of the Field.
The Oil is of the Olive of the Oliveyard
The Wine is of the Grape of the Vineyard

Field - Oliveyard - Vineyard
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine

Wine is as one of three different glories (Bread, Oil, and Wine).
"Thou art filled with shame for glory: drink thou also, and let thy foreskin be uncovered: the cup of the Lord's right hand shall be turned unto thee, and shameful spewing shall be on thy glory". Habakkuk


Like the moon, the stars, and the sun are as three glories.
"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory". Corinthians.

Like spears, swords, and bows are as three glories.
"Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows". Nehemiah

Bread - Oil - Wine
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow

But yes, I am getting frustrated and irritated by avoidance of the subject. To put it very bluntly to you: You are talking BS.

Then please consider the different sets of three glories to see how this "miracle" works:

"The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear". Habakkuk.

The "miracle" is simply an overlap of two sets of glories. Showing they are as the same things.

Bread - Oil - Wine
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow

Therefore the sun and the moon are in fixed positions (of glories), The arrows/bow and the spear positioning confirms it.
And knowing the star is as the sword further confirms it.


Maybe you are just frustrated and irritated because you dont know what a miracle is, as you dont know how they work.

Maybe you are not understanding the subject.


Consider if there is no need of the sun:

"And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof". Revelation

Bread - Oil - Wine
Moon - Star - Sun
Cattle - Goat - Sheep

Can you understand the glory of the sun, is exactly the same thing as the glory of the sheep?
As the Bible speaks of judgement between cattle, goats, and sheep.


Can you understand the glory of the sheep, and the glory of the wine are as the same thing?
Like the Bible speaks of the sheep of the mountain, and the Bible speaks about the "miracle" of wine flowing from the mountain.


If you can understand the overlapping of certain words relevant to their shared positioning, then you will be able to understand how the "miracles" work.

 

[gnostic]

Like healing the deaf, those who can't hear the words of the book?

"And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness". Isaiah.
Or healing the lame?

Or like healing the lame, making the crooked straight?

"The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools". Psalm




Yeah they are possible, but perhaps not in the way that you think.


The Bible speaks of fields, oliveyards, and vineyards (three different things):

"And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants". Samuel.

And it speaks of corn, olives, and grapes (three different things)
And it speaks of bread, oil, and wine (three different things).

Nine different things can be seen as just three different things:

The Bread is of the Corn of the Field.
The Oil is of the Olive of the Oliveyard
The Wine is of the Grape of the Vineyard

Field - Oliveyard - Vineyard
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine

Wine is as one of three different glories (Bread, Oil, and Wine).
"Thou art filled with shame for glory: drink thou also, and let thy foreskin be uncovered: the cup of the Lord's right hand shall be turned unto thee, and shameful spewing shall be on thy glory". Habakkuk


Like the moon, the stars, and the sun are as three glories.
"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory". Corinthians.

Like spears, swords, and bows are as three glories.
"Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows". Nehemiah

Bread - Oil - Wine
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow




Then please consider the different sets of three glories to see how this "miracle" works:

"The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear". Habakkuk.

The "miracle" is simply an overlap of two sets of glories. Showing they are as the same things.

Bread - Oil - Wine
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow

Therefore the sun and the moon are in fixed positions (of glories), The arrows/bow and the spear positioning confirms it.
And knowing the star is as the sword further confirms it.


Maybe you are just frustrated and irritated because you dont know what a miracle is, as you dont know how they work.

Maybe you are not understanding the subject.


Consider if there is no need of the sun:

"And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof". Revelation

Bread - Oil - Wine
Moon - Star - Sun
Cattle - Goat - Sheep

Can you understand the glory of the sun, is exactly the same thing as the glory of the sheep?
As the Bible speaks of judgement between cattle, goats, and sheep.


Can you understand the glory of the sheep, and the glory of the wine are as the same thing?
Like the Bible speaks of the sheep of the mountain, and the Bible speaks about the "miracle" of wine flowing from the mountain.


If you can understand the overlapping of certain words relevant to their shared positioning, then you will be able to understand how the "miracles" work.

you still have nothing to say about Jesus’ miracle. You are still ignoring water into wine. Instead you talk of olive and cheese, and rivers and mountains, etc.

Thanks, I am going to ignore you.

 

[paarsurrey]

Water into wine: natural or supernatural?

What is natural, please?
Regards

 

[Kathryn]

About miracles in general, yes, they are personal opinions, whether it be yours, mine or someone else.

However, the composition of water, the composition of grapes and composition of wine, the practice of winemaking - particularly the fermentation process, and so on, they are facts, not personal opinions.

Water cannot miraculously or magically turn into wine, that’s not a personal opinion.

Fermentation come from turning the natural sugar in the grape and their juice, into alcohol, comes from mixing the carbohydrates (sugars) with yeasts.

I have already explain part of the process of winemaking, how fermentation occurred with introduction of yeasts that turn sugars into alcohol.

Jesus performed many miracles and this was just the first one recorded in the bible. You're making a classic mistake of trying to force a physical issue onto a miraculous one.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

you still have nothing to say about Jesus’ miracle. You are still ignoring water into wine. Instead you talk of olive and cheese, and rivers and mountains, etc.

Thanks, I am going to ignore you.

Seems @gnostic is not listening. Not understanding what I was trying to explain.

I am not ignoring water into wine.


Water as wine:

If the word "wine" can be substituted by "the Spirit":

"And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit". Ephesians


Then this verse is speaking of water and wine (and the kingdom of God):

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God". John




Water as wine again:

Here it states the water and the "Spirit of God" (wine) being like a Dove:

"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him". Matthew




And here is water as wine again:

The mighty stream, and the mighty wine.
Mighty Ephraim:

"But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream". Amos

"And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the Lord". Zechariah


And likewise Ephraim (mighty stream, mighty wine/spirit) is also like a dove:

"Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart: they call to Egypt, they go to Assyria". Hosea



Ephraim like a dove, as sheep with wolves:
"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves". Matthew


The Sheep are as Joseph (Ephraim is of the tribe of Joseph):
"Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth". Psalm

The wolves are as Benjamin:
"Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil". Genesis


Therefore the sheep and the wolves are together according to this kingdom description:

And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan. Ezekiel.


North - West - East
Sea - River - Stream
Bread - Oil - Wine
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Lion - Leopard - Wolf


I am now trying to show/explain as in the baptism of Jesus, the water, the spirit (wine), and the dove.

And that the water and wine (spirit), and dove, is in accordance to the gates of the kingdom.

 

[gnostic]

Seems @gnostic is not listening. Not understanding what I was trying to explain.

I am not ignoring water into wine.


Water as wine:

If the word "wine" can be substituted by "the Spirit":

"And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit". Ephesians


Then this verse is speaking of water and wine (and the kingdom of God):

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God". John




Water as wine again:

Here it states the water and the "Spirit of God" (wine) being like a Dove:

"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him". Matthew




And here is water as wine again:

The mighty stream, and the mighty wine.
Mighty Ephraim:

"But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream". Amos

"And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the Lord". Zechariah


And likewise Ephraim (mighty stream, mighty wine/spirit) is also like a dove:

"Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart: they call to Egypt, they go to Assyria". Hosea



Ephraim like a dove, as sheep with wolves:
"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves". Matthew


The Sheep are as Joseph (Ephraim is of the tribe of Joseph):
"Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth". Psalm

The wolves are as Benjamin:
"Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil". Genesis


Therefore the sheep and the wolves are together according to this kingdom description:

And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan. Ezekiel.


North - West - East
Sea - River - Stream
Bread - Oil - Wine
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Lion - Leopard - Wolf


I am now trying to show/explain as in the baptism of Jesus, the water, the spirit (wine), and the dove.

And that the water and wine (spirit), and dove, is in accordance to the gates of the kingdom.

You are still focusing on everything except John 2.

And btw, I do know spirits exist. They are called alcoholic beverges or liqors, like beer, wine, whiskey, etc. These spirits are real.

The other kind of spirits, as supernatural entities - not so much.

 

[gnostic]

Jesus performed many miracles and this was just the first one recorded in the bible. You're making a classic mistake of trying to force a physical issue onto a miraculous one.

I used to believe in the Bible, Kathryn.

The Bible itself didn't make me become an agnostic. It is that some people put me off the Bible, with their own interpretations, like this @WonderingWorrier with his word games and not focusing on the topic of this thread.

But there weaknesses in the Bible, if taken literally.

 

[gnostic]

What is natural, please?

Fermentation is a natural process, where the yeasts turn sugar into alcohol - that's chemical reaction, and it is natural chemical reaction too.

Grape naturally have sugar in its fruit. And yeasts are single-celled fungi that often grown on skins of fruits, like grape.

That's the only way they can make wine back then.

But introducing yeasts to wheat would cause fermentation, chemically turning into beer, and fermentation of honey into mead.

These are natural processes.

Water don't naturally have sugar, nor do yeasts grown in water. So for water to into wine, it would need magic, but you can call it miracle if you want.

Magic or miracle, it defy nature, it is both supernatural and unnatural.


Supernatural only exist in imagination of people...it can be entertaining (eg storytelling), but they are not real.

For people who actually believe in these so-called miracles, in this day and age, where we have understanding of how natural processes work, it is simply ignorant & crazy!

 

[Kathryn]

I used to believe in the Bible, Kathryn.

The Bible itself didn't make me become an agnostic. It is that some people put me off the Bible, with their own interpretations, like this @WonderingWorrier with his word games and not focusing on the topic of this thread.

But there weaknesses in the Bible, if taken literally.

I don't take it all literally. The bible is a collection of books by many different authors over hundreds and hundreds of years. It's never been a science book to me.