We die because of Adam and Eve?: How crazy!

[idea]

Adam and Eve could have children from the very beginning. Remember in Genesis 1, god told them to be "fruitful and multiply"?

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. (Pearl of Great Price | Moses5:11)

link
The Lord gave Adam and Eve four commandments in the Garden of Eden:
1. to multiply and replenish the earth (see Gen. 1:28; Moses 2:28; Abr. 4:28).
2. They were to govern the earth wisely (have dominion over it) (see Moses 2:28; Abr. 4:26).
3. They were not to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and if they did they would experience serious consequences (see Gen. 2:17; Moses 3:17; Abr. 5:13).
4.They were to remain with each other (see Gen. 2:24; Moses 3:24; Abr. 5:18).

In the case of two of these commandments—to multiply and replenish the earth and to refrain from partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil—Adam and Eve had to choose which they were to obey. Procreation was not possible for them in their immortal state (see 2 Ne. 2:22–25), yet Heavenly Father would not rob them of their agency by making the choice for them. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote:

“The Lord said to Adam that if he wished to remain as he was in the garden, then he was not to eat the fruit, but if he desired to eat it and partake of death he was at liberty to do so.”19 In essence the Lord told Adam that there were two directions to go, each with its unique consequences—and that Adam was to choose which one.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
it makes sense to me, that bringing a child into the world requires going against their agency - or getting someone into something that they cannot make an infored choice on. (You cannot make an informed choice on something you have never experienced before, spirits cannot make an informed choice about getting a body/coming to Earth, because they had never experienced it before)... only a fallen being who is able to transgress the law of agency can bring a spirit into the world.

Jesus is the "only" begotten - the only one - and a handmaid was required to beget him. That means our Heavenly Parents do not beget children in their perfect form either. (Eve, in her perfect form, did not beget children either, perfect beings cannot beget children).

not to say that it is not needed - begetting children is a beautiful thing, necessary for our progression, but there are sacrifices involved.... the more perfect type of birth is that of the believer's baptism - second birth, one where the person has experience and can make an informed choice about their family and what they want to do.

 

[Starsoul]

I, though I'm an atheist, interpret the tale of Adam and Eve as indicating that people will most likely do wrong at least a few times in their lives.

I'm going to just give a slight islamic perspective on this story, this above statement of yours is Very true. Except for the Messengers of God, all humans err and do wrong, knowingly or unknowingly.

I'm pretty sure we've all told that lie that didn't have to be told, we've done something out of self-interest that harmed someone else even indirectly... I think it's a stretch of the imagination to say that anyone is completely innocent of any sort of wrongdoing.

Totally agree.

As a literal story though I think it's ridiculous. Why does God need a forbidden tree? He doesn't... placing it there can be one thing and one thing only: entrapment. Furthermore, in the literal story Adam and Eve were innocent; they ostensibly had no knowledge to differentiate good from evil

From what is said in the Quran, Allah forewarned Adam and Eve about the tree in heaven which was placed there by satan, Not God, because it was Satan's challenge that he will deceive man to disobey God. Ofcorse, God allowed him to place the tree there , but since God's warning can well imagined to be quite firm in essence since coming from an absolute command, it is more probable that man was expected by God to bind fiercely by the warning issued personally by God rather than heed to the subtle temptations of satan.

Surely at that time God did NOT present the concept of eternal hell fire to Adam and eve, to instill any fear in them, and just warned of the tree that 'do not go there or you will regret'. That proves, that God had not spoken of a 'hell torment' prior the first test of man as a creation in heaven, and AFTER the first test of man, the concept of fear had to be instilled for the rest of the creation to fear hell, because God is something people usually don't start fearing until they really do.

And those who think 'nah we wouldn't have gone near that tree had God said so', think again, as far the record of humanity is concerned i think we would've done much worse than just eat the forbidden fruit. And if the concept of hell was not introduced after the firts man's mistake, i don't doubt anyone would fear committing any crime, of any magnitude on this earth. People would just really mess up theirs and others lives to no end.

Well, "deception" is evil. A person who can't tell good from evil doesn't know what "deception" is. This is much like a small child doesn't know that when a stranger says to get in the car with him that he's "deceiving" them until you TEACH the child what deception is in order to protect them.

If you're talking by Adam and Eve, The Quran says that they were taught about everything. Why they still erred, was due to their "lack of application of knowledge" AND 'Non- practice of patience'. They were told that satan will try his best to mislead them, and at that time satan was a visible being.

The whole concept of creation, divinity, messengers of God, the day of judgment revolves around this. NOW,If man COULD err and sin in the Visual presence of GOD and SATAN, then why would he NOT err in the visual absence of both?

Like when an athiest would say that If God was visible, I'd listen to him and believe in him, this story refutes this claim. Because it clearly states that obedience does not come with Visual evidence.

If Satan, before he was fallen, had the guts to go against God while having full knowledge about Him, And when Adam could get tempted by the subtle 'apparently pleasant' but demonic invocations of satan, inspite of having seen God and clearly known of His powers, and yet he got tempted away by satan, MEANT that man, sort of needed, and chose to learn the way to God's obedience, the Hard way.

And that hard way gave birth to The Earth, where The rules were set by God and some will power and intelligence to judge/ analyze the outcome of his actions was given to man.

So, in our belief, you are not taken to task for every little sin that you did in innocence or due to lack of knowledge, you stand a full chance of repentence and a full chance of granted mercy. The problem is when you realize that you were wrong , and yet don't repent and then insist upon your previous stance out of arrogance.

And the thing about children, well children can be manipulated, but Adam was created as a full grown mature man. Also, in our faith we have so many prayers to save us from the entrapments of satan and of other mishaps and evil, we feel safe knowing that after having asked for divine help, we would be safe from any untoward events. And if then any unpleasant event happens, we find patience in the fact, through the word of God( in His book), that bigger evil was warded off us, and in such cases the pain and suffering is quite minimal and passable.

So, long winded rant over... creating beings ignorant of lies and then allowing a liar to manipulate them knowingly (omnisciently) is worse than entrapment, it's a setup. The one thing Adam and Eve required to protect themselves against deception was the one thing that they were forbidden to do. That is, I believe, a true catch-22. It definitely raises a lot of questions about the literal interpretation of the Genesis story.

In islam , it is clearly said that Adam and Eve were forewarned about the lies of satan, and that seems fair enough.

 

[idea]

In islam , it is clearly said that Adam and Eve were forewarned about the lies of satan, and that seems fair enough.

We also believe that Adam and Eve had a full knowledge of what they were getting themselves into, they were perfect, with a perfect mind, and perfect intellect. We belive that they made the right choice.

 

[Nerthus]

I don't want to be judged for someone else's actions.

 

[Beta]

I don't want to be judged for someone else's actions.

Don't worry - you won't be !
Jesus is our 'personal 'Saviour' and we are judged according to our own sins. :yes:

 

[Nerthus]

Don't worry - you won't be !
Jesus is our 'personal 'Saviour' and we are judged according to our own sins. :yes:

I won't be judged for any 'sins' thank you.

The idea of 'original sin' is something I won't ever agree with.

 

[Beta]

I won't be judged for any 'sins' thank you.

The idea of 'original sin' is something I won't ever agree with.

Seems you are not prepared to take correction for your own wrong-doing ??? Perhaps you are not aware that GOD makes the rules - not man.
Btw, I was not talking about original sin.

 

[Nerthus]

Seems you are not prepared to take correction for your own wrong-doing ??? Perhaps you are not aware that GOD makes the rules - not man.
Btw, I was not talking about original sin.

Not believing in God is not a wrong doing. I don't hurt anyone, so I don't need correction.

You believe God makes the rules, I don't - so that's all there is to that one.

I was referring to the thread, not you on that latter point.

 

[Dan4reason]

Don't worry - you won't be !
Jesus is our 'personal 'Saviour' and we are judged according to our own sins. :yes:

Well, according to the bible humanity received the same punishment as Adam and Eve. That does not sound fair to me!

 

[Beta]

Not believing in God is not a wrong doing. I don't hurt anyone, so I don't need correction.

You believe God makes the rules, I don't - so that's all there is to that one.

I was referring to the thread, not you on that latter point.

Fair enough !
Now I know where you stand !

 

[Nerthus]

Fair enough !
Now I know where you stand !

I'm not one for being preached at, sorry.

You might believe God made the rules and Jesus will judge us, but you don't need to tell me that.

 

[Nerthus]

Well, according to the bible humanity received the same punishment as Adam and Eve. That does not sound fair to me!

It's not fair that child birth is now more painful due to them either!

 

[Beta]

Well, according to the bible humanity received the same punishment as Adam and Eve. That does not sound fair to me!

Which punishment are you talking about - being kept from the tree of Life ???
That is not an ever-lasting punishment for we can have access (through/by Jesus Christ) when we repent and mend our ways .
It is correction !!!

 

[Beta]

I'm not one for being preached at, sorry.

You might believe God made the rules and Jesus will judge us, but you don't need to tell me that.

Look friend - YOU are on a discussion forum - expect answers !!! Even some you don't like.

 

[Dan4reason]

Which punishment are you talking about - being kept from the tree of Life ???
That is not an ever-lasting punishment for we can have access (through/by Jesus Christ) when we repent and mend our ways .
It is correction !!!

Genesis 3

16 To the woman he said,

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

This punishment was applied to every human being on the planet. This punishment is not eternal but is still a punishment.

 

[Nerthus]

Look friend - YOU are on a discussion forum - expect answers !!! Even some you don't like.

Answers, not preaching. There's a difference.

Many other people manage it.

Any way I'm done on this one.

 

[Beta]

This punishment was applied to every human being on the planet. This punishment is not eternal but is still a punishment.

So you don't agree with God the way he does things ? To sin against God is a serious thing and God wants us to be aware of it. In fact what sinning man deserves is death and so SOME suffering is better than death don't you think ?
We should be thankful to be given opportunity to mend our ways instead of complaining about injustice.:slap:

 

[Dan4reason]

So you don't agree with God the way he does things ? To sin against God is a serious thing and God wants us to be aware of it. In fact what sinning man deserves is death and so SOME suffering is better than death don't you think ?
We should be thankful to be given opportunity to mend our ways instead of complaining about injustice.:slap:

The existence of God is not an established fact so there is no point in used a statement like "So you don't agree with God the way he does things." In reality God did not make women suffer from childbirth, that happened because of evolution. I an simply critiquing the notion that this was a result of an omnipotent being punishing all women for the sin of one female who did not have the knowledge of good and evil.

Let me lay out the punishments for you.
1. Women have childbirth pains.
2. Wifes are subservient to their husbands.
3. Men will have to work hard to live.

These are a result of the actions for Adam and Eve and are being dumped on the rest of humanity according to the bible. I doubt these are the actions of an omnipotent omnibenevolent God because it is wrong to punish people for the sins of their ancestors thousands of years ago.

[/LIST]

 

[outhouse]

WHY so much thought into this fable?????????????????????????????????????????

with homo sapiens being on the planet for 200,000 years I think this old myth can be put to rest [in my opinion]

and if you do believe then you will have to dig deep into fiction to explain why adam and eve are supposed to be white and theres afro americans. did afro americans evolve from white people?. Im pretty sure its the other way around.

 

[Beta]

Dan4reason , seems we are reaching the end of our discourse seeing we share only parts of the Bible. To divide it up between God (should you even consider his existence) and evolution is a recipe for confusion which I don't want to follow.
You also think it is wrong to lay A & E's punishment on all mankind thus considering yourself wiser than God - who knew that sooner or later EVERY human being would sin and need to be corrected.
Be that as it may....perhaps we should leave it there.