We need to have an honest discussion about race in America

[Kfox]

Do you believe "street culture" influences that economic disparity, or not?

I do.

 

[Kfox]

I think many times whiteness is associated with not being cool. In many ways it has replaced nerd. But I do not think that this is so true that it causes a huge impact. My point is that we have always seen this culture of getting good grades, following the rules etc pushed into a negative light. I don't think this is "street culture" i think this is american culture.

Street culture is an american culture. Unlike many places, there are countless american cultures in america. (person raised in rural Birmingham Alabama will experience culture shock if he were to move to New York city; regardless of race) Street culture is just one of countless american cultures.

I imagine you can find someone saying virtually anything, that doesn't mean there is substance to it. But, given this particular statement why do you think the comment is problematic. Former secretay of state, General powell, was born in 1937. He began serving in 1958. Have you imagined what life was like for him? Does it surprise you that someone of a different generation was judgmental of General Powell's choices? Especially someone who benefits from espousing incendiary rhetoric?

Spike Lee’s comments had more to do with his attitude and the attitudes of his fan club than being a part of a different generation.

No but there are plenty of reasons why those are valued by our culture. Why you think this is only valued by teenagers and preteens that are a part of street culture is surprising.

Perhaps sex, but getting good grades? I don’t know of any other culture that vilifies kids getting good grades in school; do you? If so, where?

I have no reason to think that those children are flocking towards that culture any more or less than their socioeconomic peers, regardless of race.

My point is this is not something they do in order to survive, it’s perceived as cool.

Firstly, getting a better job for getting better grades is not necessarily true. I am not even sure it is generally true. Secondly, why is getting better grades acting white. Following the rules may be used as "acting white" by some. Being a "try-hard" may be called acting white by some. Being a "teacher's pet" may be labeled as "acting white" by some, but there is no clear consensus that any of these things are acting white. "Acting white" is a catchall putdown for anything that isn't cool, lacks style, or goes against a "woke" narrative. It is at once a label for both submissive and aggressive qualities. If acting white means anything, it is contextual. A pejorative placeholder to symbolize a lack of acceptable behavior.

Finishing high school does make a difference in the job market. I have never seen trying hard as called acting white; there is a reason for the term “pimpin ain’t easy” a lot of the street life requires a lot of effort

Do you really think that is the whole story? You don't think visibility plays a role? You don't think that past trauma plays a role?

I think it is more of an excuse than anything else. To suggest someone of today is traumatized due to what their grandfather went through …… I ain’t buying it.

For the same reason they outperform whites who have been here for generations. I think thos question is a subtle attempt at a strawman. I dod not say that culture doesn't play a role, i said that "culture" is not the whole story.

Immigrants aren’t outperforming the average of american, the vast majority of rich and middle class are those who have been here for multiple generations.

The racial disparities we see today are not so overwhelming that they, in themselves, are preventing a group as a whole from success. People of all walks of life can find success. However as you add layers of trauma, as you add discriminatory impediments, as you add cultural biases you greatly dampen the outcomes.

The issues have always been more complex than just about race. And people who discuss race often want to focus on race. But in the same vein, because there are other factors at play does not mean that there is not racial factors also at play.

America is a product of its history. Some of that history related to race. That has impacted generations of Americans. That history continues to impact us to this day. To ignore this impact and claim that it is merely "culture" that is impacting us is to ignore how that racism has shaped our culture.

I am not suggesting race has nothing to do with the disparity, and culture is 100% of the problem, I’m saying IMO race is not as much of the issue it is being given credit for, and culture is much more of a problem than race, but nobody wants to address culture.

 

[Kooky]

I do.

Why do you think this has so far never been observed in scientific studies?

 

[Kfox]

Why do you think this has so far never been observed in scientific studies?

What type of science studies culture, and economic disparities?

 

[Kooky]

What type of science studies culture, and economic disparities?

Your theory about "street culture" and its impact on economic disparity.

 

[Kfox]

Your theory about "street culture" and its impact on economic disparity.

My theory on street culture has nothing to do with science.

 

[fantome profane]

What type of science studies culture, and economic disparities?

Sociology, anthropology.

 

[Curious George]

Street culture is an american culture. Unlike many places, there are countless american cultures in america. (person raised in rural Birmingham Alabama will experience culture shock if he were to move to New York city; regardless of race) Street culture is just one of countless american cultures.

I just don't see what you are describing as "street culture" as something distinct from mainstream culture in the U.S.

Spike Lee’s comments had more to do with his attitude and the attitudes of his fan club than being a part of a different generation.

Spike Lee was born in '57. His formative years were in the '60s and '70s. You do not see a generational difference in how race and racism was approached between that generation and former secretary of state, general Colin Powell's generation?

Perhaps sex, but getting good grades? I don’t know of any other culture that vilifies kids getting good grades in school; do you? If so, where?

Almost any middle school in the U.S. though I think you are overstating the amount of villification placed on getting good grades, but it is there. Cool kids party; uncool kids study. That is a sentiment that is not unique to "street culture."

My point is this is not something they do in order to survive, it’s perceived as cool.

But if this is done by all races at the same rate, then it cannot account for later disparities.

Finishing high school does make a difference in the job market.

High school dropout rates are different than getting better grades. High school dropout rates do not differ that substantially between white vs. Black students, especially in light of the disparity between socioeconomic classes.

These dropout rates are hardly enough to cause the racial disparity we see.

I have never seen trying hard as called acting white; there is a reason for the term “pimpin ain’t easy” a lot of the street life requires a lot of effort

It is not "trying hard" but "try hard." Try hard is another pejorative used to describe someone exerting effort on what another has judged to be a meaninglessness endeavor. So the kid who puts in 30 hours worth of work to impress a teacher is a "try-hard."

I think it is more of an excuse than anything else. To suggest someone of today is traumatized due to what their grandfather went through …… I ain’t buying it.

There is a MAUS, that recently made the news. One of the themes in it, is how trauma shapes the lives of people and therefore shapes the lives of their children. I don't think it is far-fetched to note that trauma can have generational impacts, especially when that trauma is pervasive, perpetual, and ubiquitous.

Immigrants aren’t outperforming the average of american, the vast majority of rich and middle class are those who have been here for multiple generations.

I would disagree. But i don't think it os germane to our discussion. If you are saying that immigrants, perceived as black, are outperforming native born individuals, perceived as black, then i would hold that they are also outperforming native born individuals regardless of their perceived race. To settle this we would need to breakdown by which metrics we consider the immigrants to be outperforming one demographic and see if thos trend is true for other demographics.

I am not suggesting race has nothing to do with the disparity, and culture is 100% of the problem, I’m saying IMO race is not as much of the issue it is being given credit for, and culture is much more of a problem than race, but nobody wants to address culture.

I think this is key. If we both acknowledge that 1) there are a multitude of factors involved in explaining disparities we see and 2) race is one of those factors, then we should agree that efforts to reduce those disparities including efforts that focus on race, are beneficial to our society.

Now you may hold that we should focus more on "culture" factors than race factors, but that doesn't entail that we neglect race factors. When the discussion is about race factors and you shift it to "culture" factors, it does not feel like you are having an "honest" discussion about race and instead are trying to curtail discussion about race factors.

Note that it doesn't apply when you are having a meta-discussion about whether race factors or culture factors offer a better accounting of the disparities. I am just pointing out that if individuals are trying to specifically discuss race and you then try to change the topic to that meta-discussion, I can understand why people would perceive your intentions as disingenuous.

 

[Kfox]

Sociology, anthropology.

Okay. When he said “Science” I thought he was talking about natural science which consists of Biology, Physics, and Chemistry. Yeah technically theoretical sciences like sociology is considered a science; just as agriculture, and math is considered a science. Heck they even have christian science!
However if we’re gonna include theoretical sciences, Thomas Sowell of Harvard University has commented about the affect of street culture in many of his lectures and books concerning racial issues.

 

[Kfox]

I just don't see what you are describing as "street culture" as something distinct from mainstream culture in the U.S.

Don’t cooperate with the police phrases like “snitches in stitches” or “no snitchin” are not a part of mainstream cultures in most US neighborhoods; those are popular with neighborhoods with a large gang influence.

Spike Lee was born in '57. His formative years were in the '60s and '70s. You do not see a generational difference in how race and racism was approached between that generation and former secretary of state, general Colin Powell's generation?

So that makes what he said okay? NO!

Almost any middle school in the U.S. though I think you are overstating the amount of villification placed on getting good grades, but it is there. Cool kids party; uncool kids study. That is a sentiment that is not unique to "street culture."

But if this is done by all races at the same rate, then it cannot account for later disparities.

I disagree. It is much worse for a black kid to be accused of acting white than it is for a white kid.
When I was a kid I went to a variety of different schools. I found those attitudes much more prevalent in economically oppressed minority schools than I did in middle class white schools.

I think this is key. If we both acknowledge that 1) there are a multitude of factors involved in explaining disparities we see and 2) race is one of those factors, then we should agree that efforts to reduce those disparities including efforts that focus on race, are beneficial to our society.

I agree! Yes effort should be put on all factors involved including race, but what I see is 90% of the effort being used to fight 10% of the problem, (race) and 10% effort used to fight 90% of the problem (culture). It’s almost like having a leaky faucet in the bathroom, and a fire in the kitchen, and everybody is running to the bathroom with pipe wrenches while the house burns down!

 

[Curious George]

Don’t cooperate with the police phrases like “snitches in stitches” or “no snitchin” are not a part of mainstream cultures in most US neighborhoods; those are popular with neighborhoods with a large gang influence.

There is absolutely more of a distrust for police in impoverished neighborhoods. While the sentiment of you don't turn on your friends is present in most American culture, this is taken to a new level when dealing with communities in which police have vilified themselves. But i am not sure how this translates to the disparities we see.

So that makes what he said okay? NO!

No, i agree it doesn't make it okay, but it does make his perspective more understandable. We are all a product of our environments and Spike Lee is no exception. Aren't you guilty of the same transgression by judging him?

I disagree. It is much worse for a black kid to be accused of acting white than it is for a white kid.

That is definitely speculation. But we agree that it is negative in context either way.

When I was a kid I went to a variety of different schools. I found those attitudes much more prevalent in economically oppressed minority schools than I did in middle class white schools.

I respect that observation, but besides that being anecdotal evidence getting good grades is not a high priority for many students as they move into their teenage years. While many kids would like good grades other things are prioritized. And it is a part of psychology to dissmiss and belittle things of a lower priority. If this was more prevalent in lower income neighborhoods it would not be surprising because things lile paying rent or getting food will always be a higher priority than getting a good grade on an exam. If this happens more in impoverished neighborhoods, that doesn't make it street culture, unless street culture is merely a way to state the culture of poor people.

I agree! Yes effort should be put on all factors involved including race, but what I see is 90% of the effort being used to fight 10% of the problem, (race) and 10% effort used to fight 90% of the problem (culture). It’s almost like having a leaky faucet in the bathroom, and a fire in the kitchen, and everybody is running to the bathroom with pipe wrenches while the house burns down!

Well i am not as certain about the percentages as you, but i do agree that we are dealing with complex problems. I think that we should be focusing our energy on working toward solutions. But is that what is happening?

Out of curiosity, didn't you say that black people were over represented in this street culture? Why do you think that is the case?

 

[Kfox]

There is absolutely more of a distrust for police in impoverished neighborhoods. While the sentiment of you don't turn on your friends is present in most American culture, this is taken to a new level when dealing with communities in which police have vilified themselves. But i am not sure how this translates to the disparities we see.

I don’t know if I buy this idea that there is more distrust in black neighborhoods than most others. If there were so much distrust, why are they constantly calling the cops more than anyone else? When Jacob Blake, Michael Brown, or Tamier Rice were shot by police, who do you think called the cops on these people? If black people didn’t trust the cops, black victims would not be calling them.
According to the FBI (despite being only 12% of the population) 52% of all murders and 55% of all robberies are committed by black people
Table 21
And because (according to politifact) 93% of all crimes black people commit are committed against black victims
PolitiFact - Giuliani: 93 percent of black murders committed by blacks
it is all of these black victims who are calling the police. Unfortunately the media doesn’t interview the victims of these crimes, they interview the criminals, or the friends and family of the criminals who make them look like the victims and the cops look like the criminals. Perhaps if the media covered things differently, we would see just how needed and wanted the cops are in black impoverished neighborhoods.

No, i agree it doesn't make it okay, but it does make his perspective more understandable. We are all a product of our environments and Spike Lee is no exception. Aren't you guilty of the same transgression by judging him?

My disdain for Spike Lee is based on his words over the years that has convinced me he is a racist; and I have disdain for racists of any color.

I respect that observation, but besides that being anecdotal evidence getting good grades is not a high priority for many students as they move into their teenage years. While many kids would like good grades other things are prioritized. And it is a part of psychology to dissmiss and belittle things of a lower priority. If this was more prevalent in lower income neighborhoods it would not be surprising because things lile paying rent or getting food will always be a higher priority than getting a good grade on an exam. If this happens more in impoverished neighborhoods, that doesn't make it street culture, unless street culture is merely a way to state the culture of poor people.

I don’t think the low priority for good grades is due to the struggle of getting food and paying rent, in these neighborhoods, the drug industry is seen as easy money from a young age. When you see 13 and 14 year old kids with rolls of cash, they don’t get this from getting studying for a test and getting good grades.

Out of curiosity, didn't you say that black people were over represented in this street culture? Why do you think that is the case?

The same reason (so called) Gangsta rap is dominated by black people; the same reason hip hop is dominated by black people. If you are poor, you do what you can to get by and often that includes committing crime. Street culture will often help you get away with committing crime, because much of the rules of the culture is dictated by criminals.

 

[metis]

An old but still pertinent study by the Swedish anthropologist Victor Hannertz (sp?) found that very poor inner-city blacks tend to feel that there's no hope for them to advance or that it is too difficult because the cards are stacked against them. Because of this feeling, right or wrong, they tend to form a type of sub-culture that operates under different "rules".

This often leads to we v they thinking plus many in unstable family situations. And then when some youths see that many or most of the young people they know with money are into drugs and crime, the attraction to go the same way can be very strong. And many may adopt a "what have I got to lose" mindset matched with plenty of guns, is there any wonder that places like south Chicago exist that all too often feels like a war zone?

 

[Curious George]

I don’t know if I buy this idea that there is more distrust in black neighborhoods than most others. If there were so much distrust, why are they constantly calling the cops more than anyone else? When Jacob Blake, Michael Brown, or Tamier Rice were shot by police, who do you think called the cops on these people? If black people didn’t trust the cops, black victims would not be calling them.

Hold on there. I did not say distrust of the police is more prominent in black neighborhoods. I said their is more distrust of the police in impoverished neighborhoods. It feels like you want to equate poor with black when it suits you. Is thos the case?

According to the FBI (despite being only 12% of the population) 52% of all murders and 55% of all robberies are committed by black people
Table 21
And because (according to politifact) 93% of all crimes black people commit are committed against black victims
PolitiFact - Giuliani: 93 percent of black murders committed by blacks
it is all of these black victims who are calling the police. Unfortunately the media doesn’t interview the victims of these crimes, they interview the criminals, or the friends and family of the criminals who make them look like the victims and the cops look like the criminals. Perhaps if the media covered things differently, we would see just how needed and wanted the cops are in black impoverished neighborhoods.

What do you think that this disproportionately evidences? What percentage of those percentages are related to culture? What of the rest?

My disdain for Spike Lee is based on his words over the years that has convinced me he is a racist; and I have disdain for racists of any color.

Why do you think Spike Lee said what he did about Former Secretary of State, General Colin Powell?

I don’t think the low priority for good grades is due to the struggle of getting food and paying rent, in these neighborhoods, the drug industry is seen as easy money from a young age. When you see 13 and 14 year old kids with rolls of cash, they don’t get this from getting studying for a test and getting good grades.

the latter part of this is true, and highlights that money now is seen as a priority, how is this not related to survival?

The same reason (so called) Gangsta rap is dominated by black people; the same reason hip hop is dominated by black people. If you are poor, you do what you can to get by and often that includes committing crime. Street culture will often help you get away with committing crime, because much of the rules of the culture is dictated by criminals.

So am I correct in assuming that you believe that black people are over represented in "street culture" because they are over represented in poverty? If that is the case, why are black people over represented in poverty?

 

[Kfox]

Hold on there. I did not say distrust of the police is more prominent in black neighborhoods. I said their is more distrust of the police in impoverished neighborhoods. It feels like you want to equate poor with black when it suits you. Is thos the case?

My mistake. You know all of those poor white people in Kentucky and West Virginia, I don’t know the extent they distrust the police in those areas; do you? The media only reports on distrust in impoverished black neighborhoods.

Why do you think Spike Lee said what he did about Former Secretary of State, General Colin Powell?

During that time Colin Powell was everywhere in the Media as the good guy, the military’s #1 guy and was on track to becoming the first black President nearly a quarter century before anybody even heard of Obama. Colin Powell represented everything people of his type wanted to believe was not possible. So to prevent young black kids from looking at Powell and thinking “yes I can” he wanted to get those thoughts out of their heads by proclaiming Powell was not a real black man, he is a sellout who compromised himself as a black man to accomplish what he did.

the latter part of this is true, and highlights that money now is seen as a priority, how is this not related to survival?

Drug dealing is more than just getting enough money to survive, it’s about “flexing and flossing” with rolls of cash around your friends.

So am I correct in assuming that you believe that black people are over represented in "street culture" because they are over represented in poverty? If that is the case, why are black people over represented in poverty?

Initially black people were over represented in poverty due to systemic racism, so illegal income was necessary to get by. Once the laws changed outlawing systemic racism, illegal income sources saw no reason to change, so it continues to this day. That’s my guess.

 

[Curious George]

My mistake. You know all of those poor white people in Kentucky and West Virginia, I don’t know the extent they distrust the police in those areas; do you? The media only reports on distrust in impoverished black neighborhoods.

Are you under the impression that poor white people only live in Kentucky and West Virginia? Was your comment intended to be snarky?

During that time Colin Powell was everywhere in the Media as the good guy, the military’s #1 guy and was on track to becoming the first black President nearly a quarter century before anybody even heard of Obama. Colin Powell represented everything people of his type wanted to believe was not possible. So to prevent young black kids from looking at Powell and thinking “yes I can” he wanted to get those thoughts out of their heads by proclaiming Powell was not a real black man, he is a sellout who compromised himself as a black man to accomplish what he did.

What reason to you have to attribute such a level of malice?

Drug dealing is more than just getting enough money to survive, it’s about “flexing and flossing” with rolls of cash around your friends.

Drug dealing is usually about getting money period. One needs money to survive.

Initially black people were over represented in poverty due to systemic racism, so illegal income was necessary to get by. Once the laws changed outlawing systemic racism, illegal income sources saw no reason to change, so it continues to this day. That’s my guess.

So because black people are overrepresented in poor communities due to the historical racism?

 

[Kfox]

Are you under the impression that poor white people only live in Kentucky and West Virginia? Was your comment intended to be snarky?

No intention of being sharky, my point is; I never hear about poor white areas just poor black areas from the media so I don’t know what is going on there; I don't know if your claim that all poor regardless of race have equal disdain for the police.

What reason to you have to attribute such a level of malice?

It goes against his agenda

Drug dealing is usually about getting money period. One needs money to survive.

Yeah’ but drug dealing is more than about getting enough money to survive.

So because black people are overrepresented in poor communities due to the historical racism?

Agreed.

 

[Secret Chief]

Over the years, I’ve heard many people say that we need to have an honest discussion about race in America, but when the people who say this get the discussion, I’ve found 100% of the time (not most of the time, not even 90%, but 100% of the time) it turns out these are the very people who do not want an honest discussion about race in America. What they want is to dictate their subjective views about race to everyone else, even to the point of offending others, but they do not want others dictating their subjective views at them; even even to a point that they might find offensive.
They want to express their views to others and have others listen to them, without giving input or disagreement, and they attempt to conflate this with having an honest discussion about race. This is not a discussion, this is dictation; this is indoctrination. Now if this is what you want, fine; just just say so! Say you want to dictate your subjective views about race on to others and just have them listen; and quit calling it a desire for an honest discussion, because that it is not.
Your thoughts?

The need appears to be very pressing indeed.

- Louis Theroux’s Forbidden America review – a terrifying meeting with the new far right