Were the "Heaven's Gate" Folks Delusional?

[doppelganger]

What of those followers of Marshall Applewhite who committed mass suicide because they expected their souls would meet "Jesus" riding in a spacecraft behind the Comet Hale-Bopp as it was passing through our solar system . . . .

Were they delusional?

How do you know?

If you answer the first question, please answer the second one, too.

 

[doppelganger]

BTW, their website is still up and just as it was when they all died:

Heaven's Gate® - How and When It May Be Entered

 

[Sola'lor]

I've sometimes wonderd. What if they were right? Wouldn't it be strange if out of all the religions and/or cults in the world Heaven's Gate was the true one. Hehehe.

 

[Yerda]

Were they delusional?

How do you know?

I think so. I don't know.

 

[Popeyesays]

I think it was a man's invention. God has not required human sacrifice in some time if he ever did at all.

Regards,
Scott

 

[logician]

In one word, yes.

 

[doppelganger]

In one word, yes.

You didn't follow the instructions.

 

[blackout]

What of those followers of Marshall Applewhite who committed mass suicide because they expected their souls would meet "Jesus" riding in a spacecraft behind the Comet Hale-Bopp as it was passing through our solar system . . . .

Were they delusional?

How do you know?

If you answer the first question, please answer the second one, too.

delusional? I know nothing of it.

I would say however that they were all of a "spaced out" mind set.
Who knows what they found on the other side of the "Hale- Bopp"?!

Personally I'm much more partial to the "Hail- Dopp":bow: :flirt:

 

[fantome profane]

This is a really really good question. 1) Yes, they were delusional. If I can’t call these people delusional, then I cannot call anybody delusional. If the word cannot be used here then it loses all meaning. Perhaps that is they way it should be. Perhaps all perceptions of reality are equally valid, but I am not ready for that yet. So I have to consider these people delusional, and I have to find something to support that.

2) The best that I can come up with is that they held their beliefs absolutely without doubt, and also absolutely without evidence. I would add to this that their views lead to actions that were clearly harmful to them (mutilation and death).

The extremeness of their views, in that they dealt with matters far removed from ordinary every day experiences and their unique nature might be considered warning signs, but by themselves would not be sufficient.

 

[Reverend Rick]

It was necessary for all us Conservatives to be able to call people kool aid drinkers.

 

[doppelganger]

2) The best that I can come up with is that they held their beliefs absolutely without doubt, and also absolutely without evidence. I would add to this that their views lead to actions that were clearly harmful to them (mutilation and death).

But might they have had evidence in the form of personal spiritual experience that made these beliefs real? For example, their prophet seemed to be able to see into their souls and know them in ways that indicated he was in touch with Divine knowledge and "Jesus" may have communicated to them in a "still small voice" of the Spirit that the prophet was right.

 

[Random]

Were they delusional?

If you accept Psychiatry, yes. If you don't...

How do you know?

I don't, honestly. Who knows? Maybe JC did rescue those poor souls in His shiny spaceship. It could be regarded as making about as much sense as anything else in the world, depending on your POV.

If you answer the first question, please answer the second one, too

Done.

 

[Quiddity]

I suppose as delusional as the rest of us.

Everybody sing along...kumbaya....

 

[Somkid]

Need you ask this question?

 

[doppelganger]

Need you ask this question?

I'm not sure. Why do you ask?

 

[fantome profane]

But might they have had evidence in the form of personal spiritual experience that made these beliefs real? For example, their prophet seemed to be able to see into their souls and know them in ways that indicated he was in touch with Divine knowledge and "Jesus" may have communicated to them in a "still small voice" of the Spirit that the prophet was right.

(I was expecting something like that, and I admit I might not be able to win here, but …)

Did the prophet seem to be able to see into their souls? Where is the evidence that he seemed to be able to see into their souls? I understand that there may have been this belief, but the belief is not evidence. Was divine knowledge indicated? How, where, when was divine knowledge indicated? People may have believed divine knowledge was indicated, but that is not evidence.

And btw, since when did spiritual experience ever make a belief real?

 

[fantome profane]

Need you ask this question?

I think it is an excellent question. If I may be so bold as to interpret doppelgänger’s intention, the question is not so much about the Heaven’s Gate cult as it is about the concept of delusion. How do we recognise delusion? How do we define it? What give us the right to call a belief delusional? Do we have that right at all? All very interesting, at least in my opinion.

(of course I might be wrong about his intention)

 

[Somkid]

I'm not sure. Why do you ask?

If you have to ask:

Were they delusional? more like brain washed into delusion

How do you know? common sense

I mean I hope this is just common sense

 

[doppelganger]

Did the prophet seem to be able to see into their souls? Where is the evidence that he seemed to be able to see into their souls?

In their own experience. Let's say they were convinced he was able to know things about their thoughts, feelings and desires that they had only shared in their prayers to God.

I understand that there may have been this belief, but the belief is not evidence. Was divine knowledge indicated? How, where, when was divine knowledge indicated? People may have believed divine knowledge was indicated, but that is not evidence.

Right, but that's the tricky thing about "evidence." Once one is convinced they've experienced something and given a reality to their interpretation of it, to them it is evidence, even if nobody else perceives it the way they do.

And btw, since when did spiritual experience ever make a belief real?

Great question. If not spiritual experiences, what else could possibly make a belief real to someone?

 

[doppelganger]

(of course I might be wrong about his intention)

You're spot on. I could have used any ontological assertion as an example, though the more consent to a particular assertion is shared, the harder it is to coax a discussion about it. Something like "Heaven's Gate" I think allows us to keep a more comfortable distance and still engage the questions of "what makes something real?" , and, as you point out, "by what means can we assess a statement maintained as true, if the experience that generated it is not something to which we have direct access?"