What’s your main reason for being a theist or an atheist?

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Wow. So you don't believe, but yet you still think i need prayers based on what... YOU think i'm going to do based on entirely your own constructed little fantasy land? You accused me of doing this, in the FUTURE:

"But yet you attack John, belitting him, saying he's schizophrenic or whatever.
That shows me that in reality your life has issues so you attack others and they pay for your issues in life.
Ask yourself this, if John believes in god, why does it bother you sooo much that you have to attack him?"

How delusional must you be to first:

A. Concoct such a fantasy.

B. Then decide it's real.

C. Then go around telling the person you just insulted that you'd pray if you prayed if you believed but you don't.

Something's off here.

I think you're a theist.

I'm pretty sure he is-- I'd be willing to take bets on that too.

 

[Alonzo Tanner]

Welcome to RF @Alonzo Tanner . So what is it we are supposed to believe and what’s illogical about it?

Many things----The Virgin Birth---Resurrection, Walking On Water---Seven Loaves & Fish---Creation---Red Sea Parting--etc. etc.

 

[wandering peacefully]

You call it a soul and it didn't exist until a physical body was conceived. Then, from that point on it is eternal.

Where was this soul before conception? Where do souls originate from exactly?
Does God have a big basket of spare soul ingredients and cooks them up and puts them in human bodies at conception? Why not just skip the earthly existence step altogether considering what a literal blink of an eye it is compared to eternity?

Seems a bit silly and an unnecessary side step for an eternal soul.

 

[CG Didymus]

Nope. Faith that is based on reason, isn't actually faith-- it's knowledge.

But your attempt to re-define things to suit your false narrative is duly noted and added to the very long list.

Because the god you believe in is an egotistical monster?

Or is it that your god knows that rational people would never be happen in "heaven", constantly kissing the behind of this "god", forever?

Especially, if a person knows the god who's behind is being lip-waxed, has also put the majority of folk into an infinite torture pit?

A moral person would never abide such a place! Your god? Immoral.

I have no desire to "please" such a monster-- it is wholly undeserving of even attention.


See above: Your god seems to crave the gullible and the foolish most of all.

Likely because anyone with an Ethical Mind, would be unhappy with infinite torture.

Faith is not the opposite of reason because faith can be based upon reason.
Nice try though.

Faith is however necessary to please God. You should know that after all your experience with Christianity.
It is a double-edged sword Bob. If you do not want to have faith, you will never please God and God will not guide you to the truth, since God does not come running after nonbelievers.

I don't know how "faith" is being defined in the different Bible verses. I'd imagine that sometimes it can be "trust". Like in put your trust in God. I doubt if it means put "blind faith" into something you can't see or prove.

But I tried to believe in several different religions and put my trust in them as being true. Then later, after gaining more knowledge and using a little reasoning, I questioned some of the things I was being told. You know how it goes in religions, though, questioning and doubting are frowned upon. Unfortunately, I think it is still true with the Baha'i Faith, although they support using reason and for people to investigate the truth for themselves. I think they are way too defensive and instead of honoring and supporting varying view points, they, like other religions, try to show people the errors of their thinking.

Now what is weird, Baha'is don't believe in the monster god either. They don't have a fiery pit or a devil. So, in a lot of ways, I believe, Baha'is and Atheists have a lot in common. Both think that monster god does not exist. Now if they could only prove their kinder, gentler God is real. Which is difficult, because he is invisible and unknowable. All they have is their prophet's word and all the prophecies that they say he fulfilled. You know like the prophecy that Jesus would return as a Persian nobleman. And that not only Baha'u'llah, but Muhammad and The Bab were also the returns of Christ... that is the Christ Spirit. Way too complicated for me to figure out. But I know why I think some of things they say don't make sense to me.

 

[CG Didymus]

Sorry I made that statement, I will try to remember not to talk about what I do not know about or care about.
Who cares about what happened over 4000 years ago? I guess you do... Why you do I cannot understand.

I made the mistake of thinking religious truth was real, so I listened to people from several religions... and studied a little bit about their religion. But now you know why some people think the God of the Bible is a monster. He did order killing. So now what you gonna do? Do like other Baha'is and say that the Bible is the Word of God, but it's symbolic not historical? Or, be more like me and think it is embellished religious myth that was by a people and for a people. If the Hebrews didn't obey their God, he would have them killed invaded by their enemies or other horrible things. Now for most Christians it's a lot better. They get to go to heaven. If they screw up they can confess their screwups. It's only those that reject Jesus that God throws into a fiery pit. Anyway, that's your Bible lesson for today. But what's up with all the Bible quotes you throw out there? You seem to know your way around the Bible pretty well.

 

[CG Didymus]

Where was this soul before conception? Where do souls originate from exactly?
Does God have a big basket of spare soul ingredients and cooks them up and puts them in human bodies at conception? Why not just skip the earthly existence step altogether considering what a literal blink of an eye it is compared to eternity?

Seems a bit silly and an unnecessary side step for an eternal soul.

Exactly, that is so right on. Too bad God couldn't think of that. Instead, he creates souls, puts them into bodies, puts those bodies into a messed up world and says "Come find me!"

 

[CG Didymus]

Many things----The Virgin Birth---Resurrection, Walking On Water---Seven Loaves & Fish---Creation---Red Sea Parting--etc. etc.

Hey Alonzo, Boy do you got a lot of catching up to do about the Baha'i Faith. Let me just give you one word "symbolic". Most of those things the Baha'is don't believe happened either. If I had a nickel for every time a Baha'is used the word "symbolic" I'll bet you I'd have at least nine dollars and fifty five cents by now. You got 'em on the Virgin Birth thing, though. For some reason their prophet says that is true.

 

[Dawnofhope]

That answers what I was asking about the "spirit being" part of people. You call it a soul and it didn't exist until a physical body was conceived. Then, from that point on it is eternal. So both the soul and physical body know nothing?

We can’t make the statement “The soul knows nothing at conception” as the nature of the soul is the first to recognise the excellence of its Creator and a mystery that no man can fathom no matter how keen his intellect. We can say the soul continues to progress through the worlds of God beyond this world.

The body learns and grows, makes mistakes, but is supposed to come to realize that the body is not its true self. And to stop leaving for the body but to live its life for the future spiritual world?

We need to recognise what is necessary for our development both in this world and the next. We can best do that through the Manifestations of God according to a Baha’i worldview.

And, right now, not one religion, other than the Baha'is, have the updated and correct truth about God and how to do the right things to be in a good position to be close to God in the next world?

Correct.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Many things----The Virgin Birth---Resurrection, Walking On Water---Seven Loaves & Fish---Creation---Red Sea Parting--etc. etc.

That’s quite a list.

Do you think the Gospels and Torah that conveyed these events were providing an historical or religious narrative?

 

[Aupmanyav]

I like that philosophy very much. It's simliar to the Napkin Religion. Have you heard of it

Yeah, I have heard of that.

But there is a difference. Hindu religion has many sects with different philosophies ranging, as you perhaps know, from a thousand Gods and Goddesses to even none. Hinduism does not make any of them to be the only truth in exclusion to others.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

See, as it is not my explanation I share, it is what I have read and seen as Truth.

Regards Tony

I have no idea what you mean by "seen as Truth." Do you mean you thought about it and accepted it as true?

 

[Aupmanyav]

And that not only Baha'u'llah, but Muhammad and The Bab were also the returns of Christ... that is the Christ Spirit.

You forgot some, e.g., Zoroaster and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of the Ahmadiyyas. But why this Christ spirit has to insist on one God and why the Christ spirit always tries to negates all previous prophets/sons/messengers/manifestations/Mahdis? Now don't let Bahais say that they accept all, because in fact, they don't. 'Progressive Revelation' puts all that was said before in the waste paper basket.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yeah, I have heard of that.

But there is a difference. Hindu religion has many sects with different philosophies ranging, as you perhaps know, from a thousand Gods and Goddesses to even none. Hinduism does not make any of them to be the only truth in exclusion to others.

So in other words no one really knows the truth for certain in Hinduism?

 

[Dawnofhope]

You forgot some, e.g., Zoroaster and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of the Ahmadiyyas. But why this Christ spirit has to insist on one God and why the Christ spirit always tries to negates all previous prophets/sons/messengers/manifestations/Mahdis? Now don't let Bahais say that they accept all, because in fact, they don't. 'Progressive Revelation' puts all that was said before in the waste paper basket.

The Christ Spirit insists on One God because it believes in One God.

Baha’is don’t believe Mírzá Ghulam Ahmad was the Return of Christ but Ahmadiyyas do.

Baha’is believe Zoroaster was a Manifestation of God but don’t believe He was the Return of Christ. That wouldn’t make any sense as Zoroastrianism emerged at least 500 years before Christ was born.

Progressive Revelation affirms and validates what has gone before.

 

[Aupmanyav]

And, right now, not one religion, other than the Baha'is, have the updated and correct truth about God and how to do the right things to be in a good position to be close to God in the next world?

What is the update CG Didymus, other than that Bahaullah is the latest 'avatara' (Manifestation - what becomes manifest, incarnation) of Allah, and that Allah has come with a new revelation which is better than all the rest that was revealed before? That is what all the other people also said. Jesus and Mohammad also brought new covenants. Peace, peace, peace! Did Jesus and Mohammad deny peace? So, what is new other than one more claimant of the pie?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don't know how "faith" is being defined in the different Bible verses. I'd imagine that sometimes it can be "trust". Like in put your trust in God. I doubt if it means put "blind faith" into something you can't see or prove.

But I tried to believe in several different religions and put my trust in them as being true. Then later, after gaining more knowledge and using a little reasoning, I questioned some of the things I was being told. You know how it goes in religions, though, questioning and doubting are frowned upon. Unfortunately, I think it is still true with the Baha'i Faith, although they support using reason and for people to investigate the truth for themselves. I think they are way too defensive and instead of honoring and supporting varying view points, they, like other religions, try to show people the errors of their thinking.

Now what is weird, Baha'is don't believe in the monster god either. They don't have a fiery pit or a devil. So, in a lot of ways, I believe, Baha'is and Atheists have a lot in common. Both think that monster god does not exist. Now if they could only prove their kinder, gentler God is real. Which is difficult, because he is invisible and unknowable. All they have is their prophet's word and all the prophecies that they say he fulfilled. You know like the prophecy that Jesus would return as a Persian nobleman. And that not only Baha'u'llah, but Muhammad and The Bab were also the returns of Christ... that is the Christ Spirit. Way too complicated for me to figure out. But I know why I think some of things they say don't make sense to me.

I don't mean to be rude to Baha'i, and to add, you forgot The Buddha, Krishna, and Zoroastar.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So in other words no one really knows the truth for certain in Hinduism?

We know the truth but not every one is intelligent and brave enough to understand or accept it. So we do not mind if people make their own guesses which satisfy their mental level. These are similar to those of Bahais. These are known as sects with their own leaders and their own God beliefs.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't know how "faith" is being defined in the different Bible verses. I'd imagine that sometimes it can be "trust". Like in put your trust in God. I doubt if it means put "blind faith" into something you can't see or prove.

I like this verse that a Christian posted on my forum recently, to an atheist.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

No, I do not think God wants us to believe in Him on blind faith. This passage explains what Baha'u'llah says God wants us to do.

“He Who is the Day Spring of Truth is, no doubt, fully capable of rescuing from such remoteness wayward souls and of causing them to draw nigh unto His court and attain His Presence. “If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 71

In the context of the passage above, If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people it means that God could have made all people believers, but IF God has pleased, implies that God did not want to make all people into believers, verified by the fact that not all men are believers. The passage goes on to say why God didn’t want to make us believers... In short, God wants us to do our own homework and become believers by our own efforts.

According to this passage, God wants everyone to search for Him and determine if He exists by using their own innate intelligence and using their free will to make the decision to believe. God wants those who are sincere and truly search for Him to believe in Him. God wants to distinguish those people from the others who are not sincere, those who are unwilling to put forth any effort.

You know like the prophecy that Jesus would return as a Persian nobleman. And that not only Baha'u'llah, but Muhammad and The Bab were also the returns of Christ... that is the Christ Spirit. Way too complicated for me to figure out. But I know why I think some of things they say don't make sense to me.

I think you have overthought it to the point where it became too complicated for you to understand. I guess you never heard about too much information? I came in the Baha'i Faith in 1970, and I knew just enough to know it was the Truth from God, and I have never flinched. Sure, I went through a period when I was angry at God all the time, but I never lost my belief in Baha'u'llah, which is why I was able to maintain my belief in God.

If, after all these years, the Baha'i Faith still does not make sense to you and you still have not figured it out, you probably never will, sad to say. Not unless something changes and you are able to gain a new perspective. Having your face in the Bible and trying to make it "fit" with the Baha'i Faith sure does not help your situation.

Luke 5:37-38 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.”

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

One cannot fit a newer religion (Baha’i) into an older religion such as Judaism or Christianity because it is too big and has many new ingredients the older religions did not have; so Baha’i would burst the bottles. However, if we put the Baha’i Faith in new bottles, we can still keep the older bottles of wine and both are thereby preserved. In other words, there is no reason the older bottles have to be thrown out, because the wine in all the bottles is the Word of God; the Baha’i wine is just newer and of a different flavor.

I also find this verse very significant:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.”

Jesus was right, as that is what actually happens... Christians or Jews or any older religious believers who have drunk the old wine do not desire the new Baha’i wine; they say the old is better.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Exactly, that is so right on. Too bad God couldn't think of that. Instead, he creates souls, puts them into bodies, puts those bodies into a messed up world and says "Come find me!"

At least the advert with the cute young woman was real. And even if she was an actor? She was real enough to have existed.

In sharp contrast to this god thing... it's principle attribute appears to be one of deliberate obscurity.

What's worse-- the only people who god seems to "speak" to, personally? Are rather unhinged-- not someone I'd want to buy a used car from, let alone anything serious.

 

[Aupmanyav]

- The Christ Spirit insists on One God because it believes in One God.
- Baha’is don’t believe Mírzá Ghulam Ahmad was the Return of Christ but Ahmadiyyas do.
- Baha’is believe Zoroaster was a Manifestation of God but don’t believe He was the Return of Christ. That wouldn’t make any sense as Zoroastrianism emerged at least 500 years before Christ was born.
-Progressive Revelation affirms and validates what has gone before.

- What proof the Christian or the Bahai spirit has for there being one God, and not many Gods and Goddesses, or no God at all?
- What criteria do to take to put your faith in Bahaullah but not in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad? You think he was a fake? Other people will say that Bahaullah is fake?
- We are not talking here of Jesus as a person but of the so-mentioned 'Christ Spirit'.
- Progressive revelation does that only to put in changes (though I do not find any evidence of that other than that Bahaullah is a manifestation of Allah).

What kind of God is this whose laws require frequent changes? In Hinduism, they said it for all times:
"Paropakaram punyaya, papaya parapeedanam"
(Helping others is merit, causing hurt to others is sin)