What’s your main reason for being a theist or an atheist?

[Trailblazer]

But now you know why some people think the God of the Bible is a monster. He did order killing. So now what you gonna do? Do like other Baha'is and say that the Bible is the Word of God, but it's symbolic not historical? Or, be more like me and think it is embellished religious myth that was by a people and for a people. If the Hebrews didn't obey their God, he would have them killed invaded by their enemies or other horrible things.

I do not think that God ordered all that killing, but like I said, I don't know the OT well enough to say. I think that you have the most logical explanation, embellished religious myth that was by a people and for a people.

Anyway, that's your Bible lesson for today. But what's up with all the Bible quotes you throw out there? You seem to know your way around the Bible pretty well.

I know a lot of verses in the New Testament, and I know a lot of prophecies from the Old Testament, but I do not know how all of the Bible fits together, and I do not know many of the stories.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

So in other words no one really knows the truth for certain in Hinduism?

Just as with 100% of everyone else. Faith is not knowing, it's wishing.

 

[Dawnofhope]

- What proof the Christian or the Bahai spirit has for there being one God, many Gods and Goddesses, or no God at all?
- What criteria do to take to put your faith in Bahaullah but not in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad? You think he was a fake? Other people will say that Bahaullah is fake?
- We are not talking here of Jesus as a person but of the so-mentioned 'Christ Spirit'.
- Progressive revelation does that only to put in changes (though I do not find any evidence of that other than that Bahaullah is a manifestation of Allah).

What kind of God is this whose laws require frequent changes? In Hinduism, they said it for all times:
"Paropakaram punyaya, papaya parapeedanam"
(Helping others is merit, causing hurt to others is sin)

Each religion has eternal laws and transitory laws. Society changes, the needs of the community develops along with scientific advances. The world we live in today is very different from a thousand or even one hundred years ago. Of course helping others and not harming them is an example of an eternal law.

So a community that is static and does not change prevents its members as well as its community from reaching its true potential.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam all teach One God and these faiths have all prospered and become the foundation of great civilisations. Time will tell whether the Baha’i Faith and Ahmadiyyas are from God as the truth of 100 or no gods will be established.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What is your opinion about seeing purpose and mystery as our self, mind, body, heart as a source of purpose rather than any external cause?

We could see sacredness in Hope and Faith there is a source but then how does that sustain life than actually seeing purpose in front of you and in you?

We know ourselves more to discover in us purpose, how is Mystery and external cause contrast, I'll say, to purpose inside?

I see this self is flesh and blood that is subject to death and decay. As such it is a vessel to serve a purpose that is gifted life at conception. I see that life is a connection of our Rational Soul with the human spirit. As the bible indicates, it is the spirit that gives life. While we have that connection, we live this life, which God takes when God so chooses to.

I see to find our true selves, is connecting with the external cause. The bible to me indicates that connection is being Born again, born from knowledge of the flesh to knowledge of the Spirit.

I do see that all that soul searching, can be seen to be worldly phenomenon, but to me it is only that if we use it that way. If we use the good in us over self wants and desires, then to me this is connection to the external source, which I see shines out from within us. Others may not see it that way.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony, that's so sweet. God inspired the writers to say that Moses said that God told them to draw their sword of truth out and slay in the spirit all those that were worshipping the golden calf. And then God told Joshua to conquer all the cities in Canaan with their sword of truth. They must have been very convincing preachers, because whole cities were "killed" by the truth. No Tony, the Bible stories sound very much like God commanded for people to be killed. Which makes Trailblazer wrong and now you, another Baha'i, trying to change the Bible to suit your Baha'i version of God.

Most of Persia was slain in the same manner in the 1800's.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Most of Persia was slain in the same manner in the 1800's.

But not by God.

 

[ratiocinator]

I have evidence and reasoning.

Oh, good. Please feel free to post it.

It needs objective evidence for you and other atheists, not for everyone.

It's only rational that if somebody is asking you to accept a matter of objective fact, something that exists for everybody, regardless of their feelings or beliefs, that they should supply evidence that is similarly independent of human bias.

The revealed religions do not contradict each other; what people did to change them makes them appear to contradict.

The religions of the world, as practiced and according to their writings, obviously do contradict each other. Where are these "revealed religions" codified, and why should anybody take them seriously as more genuine than the actual religions?

If these supposed "revealed religions" were clear messages from a god, why did they get distorted. You can go on blaming people for a supposed omnipotent and omniscient god not getting its message across.

My religion does not co-opt anything.

You were trying to add a whole load of other religions' followers (55% of the population) into the number who believed in your god.

People contradict people, religions do not contradict each other, they are simply different from each other in some ways.

In contradictory ways. To take just one example: there can't be a trinity and not be a trinity, Jesus can't be god and not be god.

Otherwise we would never need new religions.

This is just a bizarre statement. New religions contradict or add to existing ones, since the existing ones tend not to accept any additions, they end up being contradictions too.

Or perhaps you could try to see what is so clear.

If it was clear, everybody could see it without having to try hard - that's what clear means.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Just as with 100% of everyone else. Faith is not knowing, it's wishing.

I could say the same about atheism. You seem like an intelligent guy. Why not find a more constructive way to engage with theists?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But not by God.

@CG Didymus - What CG can also consider with the comments made, is that the Bible also shows us what is the sharpest sword;

Hebrews 4:12 "The word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

 

[Aupmanyav]

Judaism, Christianity and Islam all teach One God and these faiths have all prospered and become the foundation of great civilisations.

Why leave out Hinduism and Buddhism from the list? They have also done it with their thousands of Gods and Goddesses or without any God; for a time longer than any of the three you mentioned.

But not by God.

Nice escape for the God. No blame whatever happens in the world. Cruelty, it was the humans that did it; natural calamities, I am only testing people.

You seem like an intelligent guy. Why not find a more constructive way to engage with theists?

Of course, your message was for Bob the Unbeliever. I am not as intelligent as he is. But let me add, we go along very well with theists, but doing that with proselytizers and evangelists is a bit more difficult.

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh, good. Please feel free to post it.

I do not think I could post all my evidence of a forum.

It's only rational that if somebody is asking you to accept a matter of objective fact, something that exists for everybody, regardless of their feelings or beliefs, that they should supply evidence that is similarly independent of human bias.

Objective facts exist surrounding the Revelation of Baha’u’llah but not everyone will interpret them in the same way. Some people will see them as indicative that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God; other people won’t see them that way, because all people have different education, and different backgrounds and perspectives.

The religions of the world, as practiced and according to their writings, obviously do contradict each other. Where are these "revealed religions" codified, and why should anybody take them seriously as more genuine than the actual religions?

If these supposed "revealed religions" were clear messages from a god, why did they get distorted. You can go on blaming people for a supposed omnipotent and omniscient god not getting its message across.

God got the message across correctly and then as usual humans messed it all up over time, changed the scriptures and misinterpreted them to suit their purposed. To blame God for that is shifting the blame to where it does not belong.

You were trying to add a whole load of other religions' followers (55% of the population) into the number who believed in your god.

I do not have a God. All I was saying is that about 55% of people in the world believe in the God of Abraham, which is the same God I believe in.

In contradictory ways. To take just one example: there can't be a trinity and not be a trinity, Jesus can't be god and not be god.

Even within one religion there are contradictions because people interpreted the scriptures differently. It is all because of how people interpret scriptures that religions contradict each other. If they were interpreted correctly, one would realize that each religion simply adds on a new message but it does not contradict the previous message, it simply builds on the previous message, since humanity needs a new message in every age as humanity evolves. Religious truth is no different from scientific truth in that it needs to evolves over time to be useful, since mankind evolves and the world he lives in evolves over time.

This is just a bizarre statement. New religions contradict or add to existing ones, since the existing ones tend not to accept any additions, they end up being contradictions too.

You are right about one thing; the existing religions do not accept the new additions because the existing religions think they have a corner on the market of religious truth. But newer religions do not contradict older religions, they just add to them. They only appear to contradict because the original message of the older religions has been distorted by the followers over time.

If it was clear, everybody could see it without having to try hard - that's what clear means.

No, I did not say clear to everyone, I said clear.

Everyone does not recognize the Messenger of God because their vision is clouded by prejudice and bias and their own desires for the Messenger to be different than who He is. If they are looking for something that are hoping for they cannot see what is actually there. That is what happened with the Christians in the 19th century; they were waiting for the same Jesus they imagined would come down from the clouds with trumpets and angels; but when that did not happen, they took their ascension robes and went home. Baha’u’llah came like a thief in the night, hidden from the view of people who had clouded vision but He did fulfill all the prophecies for the return of Christ.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Religious truth is no different from scientific truth in that it needs to evolves over time to be useful, since mankind evolves and the world he lives in evolves over time.

Right. Then, why don't you accept the latest message brought in by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Mahdi? With the coming of Mirza, Bahaullah is outdated. Why do you persist with your prejudice?

Jesus is here even in 21st century. Here are the returning Jesuses of 21st Century:

• Apollo Quiboloy (1950–) is the founder and leader of a Philippines-based Restorationist church, the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, The Name Above Every Name, Inc. He has made claims that he is the "Appointed Son of God".
• Alan John Miller (1962–), more commonly known as A.J. Miller, a former Jehovah's Witness elder and current leader of the Australia-based Divine Truth movement. Miller claims to be Jesus Christ reincarnated with others in the 20th century to spread messages that he calls the "Divine Truth". He delivers these messages in seminars and various forms of media along with his current partner Mary Suzanne Luck, who identifies herself as the returned Mary Magdalene.
• David Shayler (1965–) is a former MI5 agent and whistleblower who, in the summer of 2007, proclaimed himself to be the Messiah. He has released a series of videos on YouTube claiming to be Jesus, although he has not built up any noticeable following since his claims.
• Maurice Clemmons (1972–2009), an American felon responsible for the 2009 murder of four police officers in Washington state, referred to himself in May 2009 as Jesus.
• Oscar Ramiro Ortega-Hernandez (1990–). In November 2011, he fired nine shots with a Romanian Cugir SA semi-automatic rifle at the White House in Washington D.C., believing himself to be Jesus Christ sent to kill U.S. President Barack Obama, whom he believed to be the antichrist.
• JOGJIB
• Trevor Mowoyo, Prophet, Harare-based apostle and founder of Christ in Action International, who made headlines after claiming to restore sight, says it is possible for men of the cloth to raise the dead.Who else can do that but a prophet?
• Walter Magaya, prophet, from the Prophetic Healing and Deliverance Ministries, claims that he has found a cure for HIV/AIDS – and that his cure is scientifically proven.
• Dia Abdul Zahra Kadim (1970 – January 2007), a Shia Iraqi former leader of Soldiers of Heaven, claimed to be the Mahdi.
• At the tender age of 10, Thapelo Ramokokobo is a well-known prophet and dream interpreter in Ga-Rankuwa, north of Pretoria. Thapelo has also been granted the gift of healing.

Want more? Just let me know.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Why leave out Hinduism and Buddhism from the list? They have also done it with their thousands of Gods and Goddesses or without any God; for a time longer than any of the three you mentioned.

Baha’is see both Hinduism and Buddhism as religions of Divine origins alongside the Abrahamic Faiths. Buddha and Krishna are both considered Manifestations of God. There may be others who have emerged from the Indian subcontinent. It may well be the Patriarch Abraham in the Hebrew Bible was influenced by Hinduism.

 

[Trailblazer]

Right. Then, why don't you accept the latest message brought in by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Mahdi? With the coming of Mirza, Bahaullah is outdated. Why do you persist with your prejudice?

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be the messiah and the second coming of Jesus, so I believe he was a false prophet, since I believe that Baha'u'llah was the messiah and the second coming of Jesus.

Both cannot be the messiah and the second coming of Jesus, so you have to choose.
You can make your choice but I have made mine.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Right. Then, why don't you accept the latest message brought in by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Mahdi? With the coming of Mirza, Bahaullah is outdated. Why do you persist with your prejudice?

Jesus is here even in 21st century. Here are the returning Jesuses of 21st Century:

The standard for being the Mahdi or Return of Christ is high.

There is a long list of requirements to be met and prophecies to be fulfilled.

Second Coming - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

Right. Then, why don't you accept the latest message brought in by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Mahdi? With the coming of Mirza, Bahaullah is outdated. Why do you persist with your prejudice?

Jesus is here even in 21st century. Here are the returning Jesuses of 21st Century:

• Apollo Quiboloy (1950–) is the founder and leader of a Philippines-based Restorationist church, the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, The Name Above Every Name, Inc. He has made claims that he is the "Appointed Son of God".
• Alan John Miller (1962–), more commonly known as A.J. Miller, a former Jehovah's Witness elder and current leader of the Australia-based Divine Truth movement. Miller claims to be Jesus Christ reincarnated with others in the 20th century to spread messages that he calls the "Divine Truth". He delivers these messages in seminars and various forms of media along with his current partner Mary Suzanne Luck, who identifies herself as the returned Mary Magdalene.
• David Shayler (1965–) is a former MI5 agent and whistleblower who, in the summer of 2007, proclaimed himself to be the Messiah. He has released a series of videos on YouTube claiming to be Jesus, although he has not built up any noticeable following since his claims.
• Maurice Clemmons (1972–2009), an American felon responsible for the 2009 murder of four police officers in Washington state, referred to himself in May 2009 as Jesus.
• Oscar Ramiro Ortega-Hernandez (1990–). In November 2011, he fired nine shots with a Romanian Cugir SA semi-automatic rifle at the White House in Washington D.C., believing himself to be Jesus Christ sent to kill U.S. President Barack Obama, whom he believed to be the antichrist.
• JOGJIB
• Trevor Mowoyo, Prophet, Harare-based apostle and founder of Christ in Action International, who made headlines after claiming to restore sight, says it is possible for men of the cloth to raise the dead.Who else can do that but a prophet.
  
  
• Dia Abdul Zahra Kadim (1970 – January 2007), a Shia Iraqi former leader of Soldiers of Heaven, claimed to be the Mahdi.

Anyone can claim to be the return of Jesus, but they have no evidence to back it up.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yeah, they must have been visited by Michael, Gabriel or the 'Maid of Heaven'. I suppose the Jesuses and Mahdis all have that kind of evidence. No reason to disbelieve them. Actually a sin to refuse to believe in them, they represent Allah, YHWH, the one God in whom you all believe.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be the messiah and the second coming of Jesus, so I believe he was a false prophet, since I believe that Baha'u'llah was the messiah and the second coming of Jesus. Both cannot be the messiah and the second coming of Jesus, so you have to choose.

Why? What stops Allah to send in as many prophets/sons/messengers/manifestations/mahdis as he likes? Allah likes to keep his word up to date. Indian Constitution since 1950 has been amended 103 times. That is exactly what I was asking. What is the criteria on which you decide this?

Baha’is see both Hinduism and Buddhism as religions of Divine origins alongside the Abrahamic Faiths. It may well be the Patriarch Abraham in the Hebrew Bible was influenced by Hinduism.

Now, that makes things is a bit confusing. To Hindus, Buddhists and animists, he says there are thousands of Gods and to Abrahamics, just one. What are we supposed to do? Even in Bible and Quran, there is a mention of many Gods. Does Allah get bouts of confusion? Abraham was born just yesterday. Hinduism is much older than that. RigVeda is at least 6,000 years old.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yeah, they must have been visited by Michael, Gabriel or the 'Maid of Heaven'. I suppose the Jesuses and Mahdis all have that kind of evidence. No reason to disbelieve them. Actually a sin to refuse to believe in them, they represent Allah, YHWH, the one God in whom you all believe.

Have you ever studied the Bible or Quran?

Why? What stops Allah to send in as many prophets/sons/messengers/manifestations/mahdis as he likes? Allah likes to keep his word up to date. Indian Constitution since 1950 has been amended 103 times. That is exactly what I was asking. What is the criteria on which you decide this?

Moses was born 3,500 years ago, Christ I’ve 2,000, Muhammad 1,400 and Bahá’u’lláh 200 years ago. God knows what he’s doing so he doesn’t need as many updates as the Indian constitution.

Now, that makes things is a bit confusing. To Hindus, Buddhists and animists, he says there are thousands of Gods and to Abrahamics, just one. What are we supposed to do? Abraham was born just yesterday. Hinduism is much older than that. RigVeda is at least 6,000 years old.

Abraham was born during the 2nd millennium BCE not too far from the Indus Valley so Abraham may have been influenced by Hinduism.

Abraham - Wikipedia

Hinduism and Judaism are among the oldestexisting religions in the world. The two share some similarities and interactions throughout both the ancient and modern worlds.

Hinduism and Judaism - Wikipedia

 

[savagewind]

Why do you believe what you do? We’re in the religious debates section so feel free to debate. I might too...who knows!? I don’t really like atheist verses theist debates. This could be s first. Let’s see how we go.

I believe in rightness. I trust that God alone knows it. I know about respecting righteousness that I need all the help I can get. I have learned that people are not so helpful or right also, they can be scary. I realize that it is wise to know a friend who is helpful and available at all time and which is longing to be known; meaning, not scary.

I was scared for the Earth until I realized that my fright is almost nothing compared to what God has for it. So now, I shall be God's confidant. OK?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I believe in rightness. I trust that God alone knows it. I know about respecting righteousness that I need all the help I can get. I have learned that people are not so helpful or right also, they can be scary. I realize that it is wise to know a friend who is helpful and available at all time and which is longing to be known; meaning, not scary.

I was scared for the Earth until I realized that my fright is almost nothing compared to what God has for it. So now, I shall be God's confidant. OK?

Its nice to have another theist join us.