What’s your main reason for being a theist or an atheist?

[Phaedrus]

There is tons of evidence that indicates that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, but do you really want to go there?

I do not mind.

From my perspective it appears that claims of evidence have been made without the appearance of stated evidence. It is easy enough, after all, to gullibly believe a heresay claim of divine inspiration, but one does not reasonably believe in such claims without the empirical evidence to support it--well, I do not anyway.

 

[Trailblazer]

I do not mind.

From my perspective it appears that claims of evidence have been made without the appearance of stated evidence. It is easy enough, after all, to gullibly believe a heresay claim of divine inspiration, but one does not reasonably believe in such claims without the empirical evidence to support it--well, I do not anyway.

I cannot post all the evidence on this forum. All I can do is list the different *categories of evidence* and then people have to research what is in those categories if they want to know more. They can also ask me and I can try to explain some of it.

The evidence that *indicates* that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is as follows:

• What He was like as a person (His character);
• What He did during His 40 year mission on earth;
• The history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward;
• The scriptures that He wrote;
• The Bible prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming,
• The prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled by His coming;
• The predictions He made that have come to pass;
• The religion that His followers established, what they have done and are doing now.

 

[Aupmanyav]

- What He was like as a person (His character): How does one know another person's character? Many people are different inside than they appear on outside.
- What He did during His 40 year mission on earth: What did he do other than shouting that he was Allah's latest manifestation (avatara) - and none should be considered so in the next 800 years in trying to secure his assertion? Mirza Ghulam Ahmad came in Bahaullah's own life-time with a new message and mission from Allah and he was a Mahdi. Therefore, we do not know who was true, Bahaullah or Mirza?
- The history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward: What history of his cause? He replaced Bab's name by his own, usurped Bab's legacy. To be known as a divine person was his only cause.
- The scriptures that He wrote: Any one can write the kind of blah-blah he wrote, though I would not like to fill pages and pages of falsehood.
- The Bible prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming: Bible itself is one such book. Part of it borrowed from the Jews and the rest usual blah-blah written by followers of Jesus.
- The prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled by His coming: If you are talking of scriptures of monotheists, they are all the same. They are not like those of the Eastern religions which do not claim any divine authority.
- The predictions He made that have come to pass: People say even Nostradamus' predictions came true.
- The religion that His followers established, what they have done and are doing now: All religions are involved in social work. Some with genuine interest others because of their own interest to get more members. What the minuscule number of Bahais are doing is nothing special.

What evidence were you talking about? Did you post anything sensible?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I posted the evidence about a thousand times and it fell on deaf ears.

What you call "evidence"? Is merely the claims. Unsupported, unsubstantiated, and un-endorsed by anything resembling actual evidence.

Bootstrapping Logical Fallacy.

 

[paarsurrey]

I cannot post all the evidence on this forum. All I can do is list the different *categories of evidence* and then people have to research what is in those categories if they want to know more. They can also ask me and I can try to explain some of it.

The evidence that *indicates* that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is as follows:

• What He was like as a person (His character);
• What He did during His 40 year mission on earth;
• The history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward;
• The scriptures that He wrote;
• The Bible prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming,
• The prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled by His coming;
• The predictions He made that have come to pass;
• The religion that His followers established, what they have done and are doing now.

"Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God"

Bahaullah did not claim to be a Messenger of G-d in straightforward and unequivocal terms.
If yes, then please quote from "Kitab-i-Iqan", a core book of his thought.
Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I cannot post all the evidence on this forum. All I can do is list the different *categories of evidence* and then people have to research what is in those categories if they want to know more. They can also ask me and I can try to explain some of it.

The evidence that *indicates* that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is as follows:

• What He was like as a person (His character);
• What He did during His 40 year mission on earth;
• The history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward;
• The scriptures that He wrote;
• The Bible prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming,
• The prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled by His coming;
• The predictions He made that have come to pass;
• The religion that His followers established, what they have done and are doing now.

"The religion that His followers established, what they have done and are doing now."

Is it acknowledgement/confirmation that Bahaism is a religion that his followers Abdul Baha and Shoghi Effendi founded without any authority from G-d? Bahaullah neither established it nor named it. Bahaullah was therefore not a Bahai strictly speaking, please. Right, please?

Regards

 

[CG Didymus]

I cannot post all the evidence on this forum. All I can do is list the different *categories of evidence* and then people have to research what is in those categories if they want to know more. They can also ask me and I can try to explain some of it.

The evidence that *indicates* that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is as follows:

• What He was like as a person (His character);
• What He did during His 40 year mission on earth;
• The history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward;
• The scriptures that He wrote;
• The Bible prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming,
• The prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled by His coming;
• The predictions He made that have come to pass;
• The religion that His followers established, what they have done and are doing now.

Is Jesus the Messiah, the evidence?
His character? People say he was sinless. That's good enough for me.
His Earthly mission? He healed the sick and raised the dead. At least, that's what people say he did.
The history of his cause? The Holy Wars, the Inquisition, the Protestant Reformation, TV Evangelists? All have made Christianity the number one religion in the world.
The Scriptures he wrote? Zero, but the New Testament is about him. And, his followers say God inspired them.
The Bible prophecies he fulfilled? All the prophesies can be verified. Just ask any Christian. But, don't ask the Jews. They think most are out of context or for some other reason wrong.
Prophesies of other religions? None of the other religions, except Judaism are considered true.
The religion his followers established? Look at them all. And most believe he is God. Just ask them.

So is Jesus a manifestation and The Messiah? People, that is his followers, say he is. But judging by some of the things on the list, Jesus and Christianity don't look that good. But, at least your guy, Baha'u'llah vouches for him... in a way. The miracles are downplayed and many Baha'is say were not literally true. Jesus and Satan? No, there is no Satan. He is not real. Jesus is God? Hell no, his followers made that up. Jesus rose from the dead? Get real. That was only symbolic. His whacked out followers take things way too literal.

So very little of the things that Christians use for evidence for Jesus being real and the Messiah is supported by Baha'is. Which means that the things followers of a religion believe about their guy is very different from what others say about him and is very, very questionable. Yet, for them, the followers, it is concrete and solid?

 

[Trailblazer]

So is Jesus a manifestation and The Messiah? People, that is his followers, say he is. But judging by some of the things on the list, Jesus and Christianity don't look that good.

Jesus was a Manifestation of God but He was not the end time Messiah prophesied in the OT and all the other religions.
Baha’u’llah was that Messiah.

So very little of the things that Christians use for evidence for Jesus being real and the Messiah is supported by Baha'is. Which means that the things followers of a religion believe about their guy is very different from what others say about him and is very, very questionable. Yet, for them, the followers, it is concrete and solid?

That is true. The things that Christians consider important as evidence of Jesus, namely the cross sacrifice and the bodily resurrection, are not what is most important. It is what Jesus did on His Mission and what Jesus revealed, which later came to be recorded in the NT, that is the best evidence for Jesus. The same is true for Baha’u’llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

"Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God"

Bahaullah did not claim to be a Messenger of G-d in straightforward and unequivocal terms.
If yes, then please quote from "Kitab-i-Iqan", a core book of his thought.
Right, please?

Regards

Baha’u’llah absolutely did claim to be a Messenger of God, many times, but not in the Kitab-i-Iqan, because that was not the purpose of that book.

If you wants quotes wherein Baha’u’llah claimed to be a Messenger of God and a Manifestation of God, I can quote them from Gleanings.

 

[Trailblazer]

"The religion that His followers established, what they have done and are doing now."

Is it acknowledgement/confirmation that Bahaism is a religion that his followers Abdul Baha and Shoghi Effendi founded without any authority from G-d? Bahaullah neither established it nor named it. Bahaullah was therefore not a Bahai strictly speaking, please. Right, please?

Regards

Baha’u’llah was not a Baha’i because a Baha’i is a follower of Baha’u’llah.

Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi had authority conferred upon them by Baha’u’llah by virtue of the Covenant of Baha’u’llah, which is based upon the will and testament of Baha’u’llah and the will and testament of Abdu’l-Baha.

Bahá’u’lláh and His Covenant
“These holy Manifestations have been as the coming of springtime in the world…For each spring is the time of a new creation…”— ‘Abdu’l-Bahá

The Bahá’í Faith began with the mission entrusted by God to two Divine Messengers—the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh. Today, the distinctive unity of the Faith They founded stems from explicit instructions given by Bahá’u’lláh that have assured the continuity of guidance following His passing. This line of succession, referred to as the Covenant, went from Bahá’u’lláh to His Son ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, and then from ‘Abdu’l-Bahá to His grandson, Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice, ordained by Bahá’u’lláh. A Bahá’í accepts the divine authority of the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh and of these appointed successors.

The Báb »
(1819-1850)

The Báb is the Herald of the Bahá’í Faith. In the middle of the 19th century, He announced that He was the bearer of a message destined to transform humanity’s spiritual life. His mission was to prepare the way for the coming of a second Messenger from God, greater than Himself, who would usher in an age of peace and justice.

Bahá’u’lláh »
(1817-1892)

Bahá’u’lláh—the “Glory of God”—is the Promised One foretold by the Báb and all of the Divine Messengers of the past. Bahá’u’lláh delivered a new Revelation from God to humanity. Thousands of verses, letters and books flowed from His pen. In His Writings, He outlined a framework for the development of a global civilization which takes into account both the spiritual and material dimensions of human life. For this, He endured 40 years of imprisonment, torture and exile.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá »
(1844-1921)

In His will, Bahá’u’lláh appointed His oldest son, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, as the authorized interpreter of His teachings and Head of the Faith. Throughout the East and West, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá became known as an ambassador of peace, an exemplary human being, and the leading exponent of a new Faith.

Shoghi Effendi »
(1897-1957)

Appointed Guardian of the Bahá’í Faith by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, His eldest grandson, Shoghi Effendi, spent 36 years systematically nurturing the development, deepening the understanding, and strengthening the unity of the Bahá’í community, as it increasingly grew to reflect the diversity of the entire human race.

The Universal House of Justice »
(established 1963)

The development of the Bahá’í Faith worldwide is today guided by the Universal House of Justice. In His book of laws, Bahá’u’lláh instructed the Universal House of Justice to exert a positive influence on the welfare of humankind, promote education, peace and global prosperity, and safeguard human honour and the position of religion.
Bahá’u’lláh and His Covenant | What Bahá’ís Believe

 

[paarsurrey]

Baha’u’llah was not a Baha’i because a Baha’i is a follower of Baha’u’llah.

Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi had authority conferred upon them by Baha’u’llah by virtue of the Covenant of Baha’u’llah, which is based upon the will and testament of Baha’u’llah and the will and testament of Abdu’l-Baha.

Bahá’u’lláh and His Covenant
“These holy Manifestations have been as the coming of springtime in the world…For each spring is the time of a new creation…”— ‘Abdu’l-Bahá

The Bahá’í Faith began with the mission entrusted by God to two Divine Messengers—the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh. Today, the distinctive unity of the Faith They founded stems from explicit instructions given by Bahá’u’lláh that have assured the continuity of guidance following His passing. This line of succession, referred to as the Covenant, went from Bahá’u’lláh to His Son ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, and then from ‘Abdu’l-Bahá to His grandson, Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice, ordained by Bahá’u’lláh. A Bahá’í accepts the divine authority of the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh and of these appointed successors.

The Báb »
(1819-1850)

The Báb is the Herald of the Bahá’í Faith. In the middle of the 19th century, He announced that He was the bearer of a message destined to transform humanity’s spiritual life. His mission was to prepare the way for the coming of a second Messenger from God, greater than Himself, who would usher in an age of peace and justice.

Bahá’u’lláh »
(1817-1892)

Bahá’u’lláh—the “Glory of God”—is the Promised One foretold by the Báb and all of the Divine Messengers of the past. Bahá’u’lláh delivered a new Revelation from God to humanity. Thousands of verses, letters and books flowed from His pen. In His Writings, He outlined a framework for the development of a global civilization which takes into account both the spiritual and material dimensions of human life. For this, He endured 40 years of imprisonment, torture and exile.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá »
(1844-1921)

In His will, Bahá’u’lláh appointed His oldest son, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, as the authorized interpreter of His teachings and Head of the Faith. Throughout the East and West, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá became known as an ambassador of peace, an exemplary human being, and the leading exponent of a new Faith.

Shoghi Effendi »
(1897-1957)

Appointed Guardian of the Bahá’í Faith by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, His eldest grandson, Shoghi Effendi, spent 36 years systematically nurturing the development, deepening the understanding, and strengthening the unity of the Bahá’í community, as it increasingly grew to reflect the diversity of the entire human race.

The Universal House of Justice »
(established 1963)

The development of the Bahá’í Faith worldwide is today guided by the Universal House of Justice. In His book of laws, Bahá’u’lláh instructed the Universal House of Justice to exert a positive influence on the welfare of humankind, promote education, peace and global prosperity, and safeguard human honour and the position of religion.
Bahá’u’lláh and His Covenant | What Bahá’ís Believe

"Baha’u’llah was not a Baha’i because a Baha’i is a follower of Baha’u’llah.

Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi had authority conferred upon them by Baha’u’llah by virtue of the Covenant of Baha’u’llah"

Bahaullah had no authority from G-d to break the previous Covenant and take a new Covenant. Bahaullah's own authority is challenged here , therefore, it is nonsensical/unreasonable and pointless on one's part to present the case of his conferring authority on others. Please concentrate on Bahaullah only, else, one would be wasting one's own time.

Regards


Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

"Baha’u’llah was not a Baha’i because a Baha’i is a follower of Baha’u’llah.

Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi had authority conferred upon them by Baha’u’llah by virtue of the Covenant of Baha’u’llah"

Bahaullah had no authority from G-d to break the previous Covenant and take a new Covenant. Bahaullah's own authority is challenged here , therefore, it is nonsensical/unreasonable and pointless on one's part to present the case of his conferring authority on others. Please concentrate on Bahaullah only, else, one would be wasting one's own time.

Regards


Regards

What previous Covenant are you referring to?

If God conferred authority upon Baha’u’llah, He had the authority.

One cannot really understand the Baha’u’llah’s intentions absent the Covenant and those to whom He conferred authority.

 

[CG Didymus]

Jesus was a Manifestation of God but He was not the end time Messiah prophesied in the OT and all the other religions.
Baha’u’llah was that Messiah.

That is true. The things that Christians consider important as evidence of Jesus, namely the cross sacrifice and the bodily resurrection, are not what is most important. It is what Jesus did on His Mission and what Jesus revealed, which later came to be recorded in the NT, that is the best evidence for Jesus. The same is true for Baha’u’llah.

What Jesus did? You mean like walk on water, heal people of leprosy and resurrect from the dead? Baha'is here on the forum don't necessarily believe any of those things happened. So is it that Baha'is accept that Jesus did? And then, what do Baha'is say he revealed? I'm sure it's a long way from what most Christians think he revealed, like we are born sinners and need to accept his sacrifice to be saved and to avoid being cast into hell with Satan and his demons.

 

[Phaedrus]

The best way to dismiss the existence of a believer's god is to take the method used by the believer to dismiss every other god and apply it to his god.

 

[Trailblazer]

What Jesus did? You mean like walk on water, heal people of leprosy and resurrect from the dead?

No, as I have told you more than once, the miracles are not the important part of what Jesus did, even though Jesus could do miracles.

Question.—It is recorded that miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles really to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning? It has been proved by exact science that the essence of things does not change, and that all beings are under one universal law and organization from which they cannot deviate; and, therefore, that which is contrary to universal law is impossible.

Answer.—The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared.

But in the Holy Books an especial terminology is employed, and for the Manifestations these miracles and wonderful signs have no importance. They do not even wish to mention them. For if we consider miracles a great proof, they are still only proofs and arguments for those who are present when they are performed, and not for those who are absent.....

But in the day of the Manifestation the people with insight see that all the conditions of the Manifestation are miracles, for They are superior to all others, and this alone is an absolute miracle. Recollect that Christ, solitary and alone, without a helper or protector, without armies and legions, and under the greatest oppression, uplifted the standard of God before all the people of the world, and withstood them, and finally conquered all, although outwardly He was crucified. Now this is a veritable miracle which can never be denied. There is no need of any other proof of the truth of Christ.

The outward miracles have no importance for the people of Reality. If a blind man receives sight, for example, he will finally again become sightless, for he will die and be deprived of all his senses and powers. Therefore, causing the blind man to see is comparatively of little importance, for this faculty of sight will at last disappear. If the body of a dead person be resuscitated, of what use is it since the body will die again? But it is important to give perception and eternal life—that is, the spiritual and divine life. For this physical life is not immortal, and its existence is equivalent to nonexistence. So it is that Christ said to one of His disciples: “Let the dead bury their dead;” for “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” 1
Some Answered Questions, pp. 100-101

 

[Goodman John]

Regarding 'miracles', especially those involving healing or 'water into wine' sort of things, I don't believe the stories. Personally, I think the events described were bad retellings of perfectly mundane things, or tales made up of whole cloth.

Consider this: A man can't see, and he goes to another guy for help. The other guy takes a look and finds sand or dust in the guy's eyes- that's the environment they're living in after all. Guy help him out and washes the junk out of his eyes and voila! he can see again. But now let's play 'Chinese whispers' and tell the story just in one room among, say, a hundred people for a hundred or more years. How long do you think it would take before a guy healed another guy's blindness 'miraculously'?

Got an aching back? Hit the chiropractor's office for an adjustment. Notice how his actions fit the bill for a 'miracle' - there's no outside force, just him 'laying on hands' and BAM! your pain is gone. Shift this sort of thing back a few thousand years and you got yourself a bona fide divine figure healing the sick.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Regarding 'miracles', especially those involving healing or 'water into wine' sort of things, I don't believe the stories. Personally, I think the events described were bad retellings of perfectly mundane things, or tales made up of whole cloth.

Consider this: A man can't see, and he goes to another guy for help. The other guy takes a look and finds sand or dust in the guy's eyes- that's the environment they're living in after all. Guy help him out and washes the junk out of his eyes and voila! he can see again. But now let's play 'Chinese whispers' and tell the story just in one room among, say, a hundred people for a hundred or more years. How long do you think it would take before a guy healed another guy's blindness 'miraculously'?

Got an aching back? Hit the chiropractor's office for an adjustment. Notice how his actions fit the bill for a 'miracle' - there's no outside force, just him 'laying on hands' and BAM! your pain is gone. Shift this sort of thing back a few thousand years and you got yourself a bona fide divine figure healing the sick.

Even in modern times, we get stuff like this:

Jesus wept … oh, it's bad plumbing. Indian rationalist targets 'miracles'

A statue of Jesus was seen to weep. It's proclaimed by the faithful as a miracle, but when a skeptic digs a but deeper, it turns out that the "tears" are actually being caused by a leak due to the backup of a pipe to a nearby toilet. The "tears" were sewer water.

How often does nobody dig deeper?

 

[CG Didymus]

I cannot post all the evidence on this forum. All I can do is list the different *categories of evidence* and then people have to research what is in those categories if they want to know more. They can also ask me and I can try to explain some of it.

The evidence that *indicates* that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is as follows:

• What He was like as a person (His character);
• What He did during His 40 year mission on earth;
• The history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward;
• The scriptures that He wrote;
• The Bible prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming,
• The prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled by His coming;
• The predictions He made that have come to pass;
• The religion that His followers established, what they have done and are doing now.

You've said that you had a time when you were blaming God. That's what I go through also. Some things seem too random to think that an all-knowing, all-loving, just God is in control. But there is another problem I think affects people in their decision to believe in God or not, and that is his rules and laws.

To look at how life works, it sure seems like sexual attraction was put there on purpose. With humans, bigger stronger, good looking men or rich and powerful men are going to have a much better chance at... getting laid. Great looking woman with awesome bodies or "easy" women are going to have more men chasing after them. But then God says "no". Don't do it. Don't even think about it, unless you are married?

In the Bible God said to stone adulterers to death. Same thing with people that are attracted to the same sex and follow through with those desires. God said in the Bible... stone them. Then the NT, Jesus said that anyone that looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. The NT also condemns fornication and homosexuality. God's laws with the Baha'i Faith are pretty much the same, but God no longer requires them to be killed.

Now this goes back to what I was saying earlier, that people are turned off by God and his religions when the people that are in those religions are acting hypocritically. I've known Christians and Baha'is that didn't and they said they couldn't live by those sexual laws of their religion. They chose to stay in the religion, supporting all the other things taught by the religion, but in this one thing, they break God's law. And then what happens? They can't admit in public. So they have to pretend they are good Christians or Baha'i, but in reality, they are living a lie.

Now whose fault is this? People didn't create the hormones that cause people to have sexual desires. Supposedly God did. Sex feels good. Being loved and touched, physically, feels good. People have to search for and pick out the people they think might want to have sex with them, but God says "No"? To put away those thoughts? God's the one, supposedly, that put all those things in motion. Or did he?

Could sex and procreation simply be the way things work in the physical world? It's part of nature. But for people, things have to be controlled. Society has to make rules to control people's behavior. Could people have invented their gods to have an invisible watchdog over society? Considering how every culture has different rules and different sexual moral codes, it sure seems to me that people in each culture made their owns rules. And since they have different gods and different religious beliefs, could they have made up and invented their own gods too?

For as great and wonderful the Baha'i Faith is, it still has sexual rules that, like all other religions, won't and can't be obeyed. So would a real God keep doing this to people? To make them "horny as hell" and then tell them not to do those things? What has happened and what very well could continue to happen is that people will reject the religion and God and follow their sexual urges.

Also, what will probably continue to happen is that people, including the higher ups and leaders of the religion, will get caught in sexual affairs... both heterosexual and homosexual. So can this be from God? How will it be different with this set of divine decrees? Or, is it just people making up laws that they feel are necessary and then saying they came from an invisible God? A God that makes impossible laws that only make the believers feel ashamed and guilty when they, inevitably, break those laws.

 

[Terry Sampson]

The evidence that *indicates* that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is as follows:

• The Bible prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming,

I only know of one Bible: the book which contains the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Scriptures. What book are you referring to?
If, by some chance, you are referring to the same book that I know of as the Bible, where can I find a list of the Bible prophecies that you say the Baha'u'llah fulfilled?

 

[CG Didymus]

No, as I have told you more than once, the miracles are not the important part of what Jesus did, even though Jesus could do miracles.

Question.—It is recorded that miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles really to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning? It has been proved by exact science that the essence of things does not change, and that all beings are under one universal law and organization from which they cannot deviate; and, therefore, that which is contrary to universal law is impossible.

Answer.—The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared.

But in the Holy Books an especial terminology is employed, and for the Manifestations these miracles and wonderful signs have no importance. They do not even wish to mention them. For if we consider miracles a great proof, they are still only proofs and arguments for those who are present when they are performed, and not for those who are absent.....

But in the day of the Manifestation the people with insight see that all the conditions of the Manifestation are miracles, for They are superior to all others, and this alone is an absolute miracle. Recollect that Christ, solitary and alone, without a helper or protector, without armies and legions, and under the greatest oppression, uplifted the standard of God before all the people of the world, and withstood them, and finally conquered all, although outwardly He was crucified. Now this is a veritable miracle which can never be denied. There is no need of any other proof of the truth of Christ.

The outward miracles have no importance for the people of Reality. If a blind man receives sight, for example, he will finally again become sightless, for he will die and be deprived of all his senses and powers. Therefore, causing the blind man to see is comparatively of little importance, for this faculty of sight will at last disappear. If the body of a dead person be resuscitated, of what use is it since the body will die again? But it is important to give perception and eternal life—that is, the spiritual and divine life. For this physical life is not immortal, and its existence is equivalent to nonexistence. So it is that Christ said to one of His disciples: “Let the dead bury their dead;” for “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” 1
Some Answered Questions, pp. 100-101

This is what you said: "The things that Christians consider important as evidence of Jesus, namely the cross sacrifice and the bodily resurrection, are not what is most important. It is what Jesus did on His Mission and what Jesus revealed, which later came to be recorded in the NT, that is the best evidence for Jesus."

If the miracles and resurrection are not important to you, then what did Jesus do that was so great that you believe he came from God and was the true Messiah to the Jews?

The miracles and the resurrection are "...(O)nly proofs and arguments for those who are present when they are performed"?

Who was present? Well, supposedly someone very important, God. And supposedly he told or at least inspired the gospel writers to tell the story of what Jesus said and did. Baha'is can have or accept the miracles and resurrection as literally true, because it blows their whole interpretation of what is the real truth. Baha'i truth needs to explain away the miracles and the resurrection, which is fine. Atheists do the same. But I think they are more honest about it. They call it BS.

But really, they are only "proofs" to those present? How many people read the NT and believe what is said comes from God and , therefore, is the truth? They say, "Jesus walked on water. He heal the sick. He fed the 5000. He rose from the grave. He's for sure, the Son of God." Yes, they believe the story. They believe those writers are telling the truth. So that means that statement from who, Abdul Baha'?... is wrong. People today are influenced by the supposed miracles and resurrection of Jesus.

Then you quote: "Recollect that Christ, solitary and alone, without a helper or protector, without armies and legions, and under the greatest oppression, uplifted the standard of God before all the people of the world, and withstood them, and finally conquered all.."

Alone? Without armies? When did Christianity finally take hold? I'm thinking it was when Constantine made it the state religion. And why would he do that? By winning a war in which he though God and Jesus helped him. Then there are the Holy Wars. Then the Inquisition. And what were the Christian beliefs back then? That Jesus performed miracles and was resurrected from the dead, that he was God, that he conquered Satan, that he can save people from being sent to hell etc. That is the "standard" of God that Jesus brought to the world?

The Baha'i have to reinterpret religious history to better fit their model. No problem, you kind of have to do it. All for the sake of you belief in God's progressive revelation. Or, like I keep saying, did people invent their gods and their religions? Or, is there some supernatural energy that can be tapped into that gives people some mystical wisdom or revelation? Could be. Are those messages consistent? No, people come up with lots of ideas of spiritual truth. Is that higher power or whatever it is real? Maybe. Is it God? Maybe. Is it all-loving? Maybe. But then what about the negative side of things? Where does that comes from? If darkness disappears when you switch on the light, then who turned off the light?

There is too much darkness in the world to believe that hate and evil are not real. It's is God that turned his light off or at least dimmed it to make people live they way they do. He made it dark enough so most of us can't see his light. And then what? He turns on the light and says, "Surprise! You see, I was real all the time. Now you people that didn't believe in me and didn't try and find me can continue to live in darkness. All you people that believed, come with me. We're going to party down."

But either way the Baha'i model or the Christian model both suck. And God, if he is real, is playing sick games with people. He created disasters and animals that kill, and diseases. One Baha'i justified that by calling them "tests." Tests to make us stronger. Stronger? How about for the people, including young kids that are blown up, shot, killed in an accident, or at birth or by some sickness? But, the soul lives on? And is given great rewards? Really?

Then how about animals. Like my dog. Cute little thing. But it's going to get sick and die. Great. Then what? It lived for a few years and turns to dust? Then animals in the wild that get born then eaten alive by other animals? What was God's plan in this? They live, die and are forgotten? But lucky people. We live, suffer and die and get rewarded? Sorry, I can definitely see why people don't believe this God is real.