What’s your main reason for being a theist or an atheist?

[Trailblazer]

You've said that you had a time when you were blaming God. That's what I go through also. Some things seem too random to think that an all-knowing, all-loving, just God is in control. But there is another problem I think affects people in their decision to believe in God or not, and that is his rules and laws.

To look at how life works, it sure seems like sexual attraction was put there on purpose. With humans, bigger stronger, good looking men or rich and powerful men are going to have a much better chance at... getting laid. Great looking woman with awesome bodies or "easy" women are going to have more men chasing after them. But then God says "no". Don't do it. Don't even think about it, unless you are married?

That’s the breaks. God separates out those who truly love Him and believe in Him by making it tough. Sex is not a necessity and as people get older they hopefully realize that. But when people are younger they can have as much sex as they want as long as they are married, so what’s the big deal about the law? I had plenty of sex back when I was interested in it but I waited till I got married, and so did my husband, as we were both Baha’is. But I would have waited anyway because I never believed in sex out of wedlock even before I became a Baha’i. Now I wonder why I ever thought sex was so great. It was just a physical thing, nothing more. Sex definitely came in between me and God. I am much happier now that I have no more desire for it and I never even think about it unless someone posts about it on a forum.

In the Bible God said to stone adulterers to death. Same thing with people that are attracted to the same sex and follow through with those desires. God said in the Bible... stone them. Then the NT, Jesus said that anyone that looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. The NT also condemns fornication and homosexuality. God's laws with the Baha'i Faith are pretty much the same, but God no longer requires them to be killed.

Did it ever occur to you there might be a good reason for all these religious laws? Admittedly, the OT laws are pretty extreme but maybe that is because people who lived back then needed extreme laws.

Now this goes back to what I was saying earlier, that people are turned off by God and his religions when the people that are in those religions are acting hypocritically. I've known Christians and Baha'is that didn't and they said they couldn't live by those sexual laws of their religion. They chose to stay in the religion, supporting all the other things taught by the religion, but in this one thing, they break God's law. And then what happens? They can't admit in public. So they have to pretend they are good Christians or Baha'i, but in reality, they are living a lie.

I will not comment on other people breaking laws because it is none of my business, but Baha’u’llah had something to say about those Baha’is...

“My captivity can bring on Me no shame. Nay, by My life, it conferreth on Me glory. That which can make Me ashamed is the conduct of such of My followers as profess to love Me, yet in fact follow the Evil One. They, indeed, are of the lost.

When the time set for this Revelation was fulfilled, and He Who is the Day Star of the world appeared in ‘Iráq, He bade His followers observe that which would sanctify them from all earthly defilements. Some preferred to follow the desires of a corrupt inclination, while others walked in the way of righteousness and truth, and were rightly guided.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 117-118

Now whose fault is this? People didn't create the hormones that cause people to have sexual desires. Supposedly God did. Sex feels good. Being loved and touched, physically, feels good. People have to search for and pick out the people they think might want to have sex with them, but God says "No"? To put away those thoughts? God's the one, supposedly, that put all those things in motion. Or did he?

No, God does not say no. God says say yes, but only in marriage. Then we get older and hopefully we wake up and smell the coffee and realize what is really important in life, and it is nothing physical.

For as great and wonderful the Baha'i Faith is, it still has sexual rules that, like all other religions, won't and can't be obeyed.

These laws can be obeyed even if they aren’t. I was a virgin when I got married at age 32 and my husband was also a virgin and he was 42. Just because some Baha’is find it “inconvenient” to deny their sexual desires does not mean it cannot be done and there is a great reward for those people who adhere to the law, even if they do not realize it right away, or even in this world.

So would a real God keep doing this to people? To make them "horny as hell" and then tell them not to do those things? What has happened and what very well could continue to happen is that people will reject the religion and God and follow their sexual urges.

Good riddance to bad rubbish, people who consider physical pleasure more important than God. God can easily dispense with them.

Also, what will probably continue to happen is that people, including the higher ups and leaders of the religion, will get caught in sexual affairs... both heterosexual and homosexual. So can this be from God? How will it be different with this set of divine decrees? Or, is it just people making up laws that they feel are necessary and then saying they came from an invisible God? A God that makes impossible laws that only make the believers feel ashamed and guilty when they, inevitably, break those laws.

These laws are not impossible. Most Baha’is I know are married so it is no problem. Whenever I have to rent one of my houses I see the deleterious effects on people who are not married and remarried and living together out of wedlock; all the children are split up and going back and forth from one parent to another and they have no stability. These people are not happy, it is the long married couples who are happy. Clearly, society would be much better off if people adhered to the laws of God.

It is not my place to judge anyone else, but here is one thing Baha’u’llah had to say about the laws.

“They whom God hath endued with insight will readily recognize that the precepts laid down by God constitute the highest means for the maintenance of order in the world and the security of its peoples. He that turneth away from them, is accounted among the abject and foolish. We, verily, have commanded you to refuse the dictates of your evil passions and corrupt desires, and not to transgress the bounds which the Pen of the Most High hath fixed, for these are the breath of life unto all created things. The seas of Divine wisdom and divine utterance have risen under the breath of the breeze of the All-Merciful. Hasten to drink your fill, O men of understanding! They that have violated the Covenant of God by breaking His commandments, and have turned back on their heels, these have erred grievously in the sight of God, the All-Possessing, the Most High.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 331

 

[Trailblazer]

I only know of one Bible: the book which contains the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Scriptures. What book are you referring to?
If, by some chance, you are referring to the same book that I know of as the Bible, where can I find a list of the Bible prophecies that you say the Baha'u'llah fulfilled?

Yes, I am referring to the Holy Bible that contains the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Scriptures.

The prophecies and how they were fulfilled by Baha’u’llah are delineated in the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is what you said: "The things that Christians consider important as evidence of Jesus, namely the cross sacrifice and the bodily resurrection, are not what is most important. It is what Jesus did on His Mission and what Jesus revealed, which later came to be recorded in the NT, that is the best evidence for Jesus."

If the miracles and resurrection are not important to you, then what did Jesus do that was so great that you believe he came from God and was the true Messiah to the Jews?

Jesus revealed teachings that can be read in the NT, teachings that provide us guidance on how we should live and how we should treat others. That is what He did.

Then you quote: "Recollect that Christ, solitary and alone, without a helper or protector, without armies and legions, and under the greatest oppression, uplifted the standard of God before all the people of the world, and withstood them, and finally conquered all.."

Alone? Without armies? When did Christianity finally take hold? I'm thinking it was when Constantine made it the state religion.

Christ conquered the hearts of all, not the lands. As Baha’u’llah said, all God wants is our hearts, everything else in the world is for those who want it, it is up for grabs.

“Dispute not with any one concerning the things of this world and its affairs, for God hath abandoned them to such as have set their affection upon them. Out of the whole world He hath chosen for Himself the hearts of men—hearts which the hosts of revelation and of utterance can subdue. Thus hath it been ordained by the Fingers of Bahá, upon the Tablet of God’s irrevocable decree, by the behest of Him Who is the Supreme Ordainer, the All-Knowing.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 279

The Baha'i have to reinterpret religious history to better fit their model. No problem, you kind of have to do it. All for the sake of you belief in God's progressive revelation.

How do the Baha’is reinterpret religious history?Solitary and alone, without a helper or protector, without armies and legions, and under the greatest oppression, Christ uplifted the standard of God before, and withstand and conquer the hearts of man? It was the hearts of man that were conquered, not anything else. Ask any Christian.

There is too much darkness in the world to believe that hate and evil are not real. It's is God that turned his light off or at least dimmed it to make people live they way they do. He made it dark enough so most of us can't see his light. And then what? He turns on the light and says, "Surprise! You see, I was real all the time. Now you people that didn't believe in me and didn't try and find me can continue to live in darkness. All you people that believed, come with me. We're going to party down."

Hate and evil and darkness are real but all evil comes from man, no evil comes from God.

“Consider, for instance, that which hath been forbidden, in the Bayán, unto men. God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand. Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 149-150

God turns on the light every time He sends a new Manifestation of God, but if people do not go in the room and see the light that is not God’s fault.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103

But either way the Baha'i model or the Christian model both suck. And God, if he is real, is playing sick games with people. He created disasters and animals that kill, and diseases. One Baha'i justified that by calling them "tests." Tests to make us stronger. Stronger? How about for the people, including young kids that are blown up, shot, killed in an accident, or at birth or by some sickness? But, the soul lives on? And is given great rewards? Really?

Tests make people stronger if they are able to weather them and learn from them. Not everyone is able to do that but those with a firm belief in God have a much better chance. God loves and watches over everyone but God those who truly believe in God and trust God get special help. I was reading that in some Baha’i prayers just this week.

I can testify to the fact that God assists those who truly believe in Him, because when my faith was weak and I tried to control everything, I got no help from God since I had shut God out... I was on my own.

Then how about animals. Like my dog. Cute little thing. But it's going to get sick and die. Great. Then what? It lived for a few years and turns to dust? Then animals in the wild that get born then eaten alive by other animals? What was God's plan in this? They live, die and are forgotten? But lucky people. We live, suffer and die and get rewarded? Sorry, I can definitely see why people don't believe this God is real.

I understand how you feel about the animals and that is my pet peeve when it comes to God. That is the one thing that makes me wonder how God can be all-loving. Sure, humans have recompense in the afterlife for all their suffering in this world, but what about animals? It is not certain they have no afterlife, but if they do God never revealed that so there is no way to know.

We have lost well over 20 cats in the last 20 years. Every time I wonder why they have to suffer and die and why I have to go through this over and over and over. I have had a bit of a reprieve, it is a little over a year since the last cat died, but I know what is up ahead since we still have 10 cats. I just have to deal with it somehow but it is never easy. Why should life be so hard for some people and not very hard at all for other people? Did you ever ask yourself that question?

I can definitely see why people don't believe this God is all-loving.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

That’s the breaks. God separates out those who truly love Him and believe in Him by making it tough.

Sounds like a "nice guy".... NOT.

In truth? That sounds like someone who's just a Big Bully...

 

[CG Didymus]

Christ conquered the hearts of all, not the lands.

The New World had people living in it, and they all had a religion. That religion fit very well with their culture. Some went on vision quests, some sacrificed people on altars. Then, the Europeans came and brought different forms of Christianity. I think a good case can be made that it was forced on the people. Then, I believe during the Inquisition, Jews were given a choice, convert or be tortured and killed.

God turns on the light every time He sends a new Manifestation of God, but if people do not go in the room and see the light that is not God’s fault.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103

Prior to the coming of Baha'u'llah, which "room" had the light of God in it? The Protestant room? The Catholic room? The Jewish room? and so on with all the other religions? The true Baha'i answer is that none of them had the true light. For Baha'is, the only true light didn't come until Baha'u'llah came and set things right about God and religion. All the others Baha'is say had problems, and with many, it was corrupt leadership. So any true seeker of truth should not have joined up with any religion prior to the Baha'i Faith. All of them were wrong about something. Now why people don't believe in how Baha'is interpret who God is, that's a different question.

Tests make people stronger if they are able to weather them and learn from them.

A couple of recent "tests" A hurricane is heading towards Florida. It reaches category 5. But it hits the Grand Bahamas and hovers there. Nice test. Did more people pray in Florida? Did the prayers of the Puerto Ricans divert the storm around them and caused it to wipe out the Bahamas? An old man watched his wife drown as the walls crumbled around where she was hiding. Yeah, he needed to be tested to get stronger. But how about her? She needed to die a horrible death so that in her last gasp for air she turned to God... and what? Thanked him for the "test" that killed her?

Then the mass shootings. Hispanic families going to Walmart to get school supplies for their kids. Then almost 2 dozen people shot down? Nice test. Why them? Why did the shooter drive all the way to El Paso and chose that store at that time? What went through his mind and he decided on which people to target? Yeah, nice test. El Paso and the nation will probably be a lot stronger now. And many, I'm sure will turn to God. But which God? Since many Hispanics are Catholic or Protestant, they will probably pray to their God... The Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit. And, if Catholic, to Mary also. Since Baha'is don't believe in that God, who hears their prayers?

Why should life be so hard for some people and not very hard at all for other people? Did you ever ask yourself that question?

I can definitely see why people don't believe this God is all-loving.

That's all I'm trying to say. Cut Atheists some slack. There are very legitimate reasons to doubt and to question and then reject God and religion. Baha'is reject those beliefs also.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's all I'm trying to say. Cut Atheists some slack. There are very legitimate reasons to doubt and to question and then reject God and religion. Baha'is reject those beliefs also.

I will come back and respond to the rest of your post later, as right now I am on the run. But I just wanted to respond to this last part.

I cut atheists a lot of slack and I know that there are very legitimate reasons to doubt and to question and then reject God and religion. I do not agree with all of their reasons but I do agree with some of their reasons. For example, I do not think that a good reason to reject God is because God uses Messengers to communicate, but a reason to question that God even exists is all the suffering in the world.

 

[Link]

I know without God's vision, who I am is impossible to have a reality and not be an illusion.

 

[CG Didymus]

Did it ever occur to you there might be a good reason for all these religious laws? Admittedly, the OT laws are pretty extreme but maybe that is because people who lived back then needed extreme laws.

But did God make those laws for only those people or for the whole world? Other people had their own laws and their gods are the ones that gave them those laws. And all these laws and gods are different. So one real God? Or many people with their own ideas about what the rules should be and then make up a concept of god to fit their culture and beliefs?

The other problem. The religious few make the rules for the rest of the people. You didn't have sex until married, but what about everybody else? Should religion tell them how to behave? Can religion tell them how to behave? I don't think religion has ever been successful at doing that. So now the new message from God... no sex before marriage and no homosexual sex. I doubt if it will be successful. So why can't God get people to do what he wants? Is it people's fault? Or God making rules that he knows won't work because of the way he made people... to like pleasure and to question things they can't see or prove, like an invisible God that makes impossible to follow rules.

 

[Trailblazer]

But did God make those laws for only those people or for the whole world? Other people had their own laws and their gods are the ones that gave them those laws. And all these laws and gods are different. So one real God? Or many people with their own ideas about what the rules should be and then make up a concept of god to fit their culture and beliefs?

The whole world was not connected at the time the OT laws were revealed. i assume those laws were just for the Jews. God reveals new laws in every age, whenever He sends a new Messenger, but those laws only apply to those who have recognized that Messenger.

The other problem. The religious few make the rules for the rest of the people. You didn't have sex until married, but what about everybody else? Should religion tell them how to behave? Can religion tell them how to behave?

The Baha'i laws only apply to Baha'is. Other people might have their own religion with other laws so they are responsible to follow them, but nonbelievers do not have a religion so they can do whatever they want to do.

I don't think religion has ever been successful at doing that.

It hasn't been very successful because people are selfish and they just want to do what they want to do.

So now the new message from God... no sex before marriage and no homosexual sex. I doubt if it will be successful. So why can't God get people to do what he wants? Is it people's fault?

Eventually, it will be more successful, when people change and become more spiritual but that is a long way off.
Yes, it is squarely peoples' fault because everyone has free will to choose.... choose God or self.

Or God making rules that he knows won't work because of the way he made people... to like pleasure and to question things they can't see or prove, like an invisible God that makes impossible to follow rules.

God knows some people will follow the laws and others won't. That is their choice. It won't hurt God if people do not follow the laws, it only hurts the people. It is not impossible to follow the rules, some people just do not WANT TO because they are attached to the things of the world instead of to God.

 

[CG Didymus]

The whole world was not connected at the time the OT laws were revealed. i assume those laws were just for the Jews. God reveals new laws in every age, whenever He sends a new Messenger, but those laws only apply to those who have recognized that Messenger.

I'm just thinking it's more likely that all tribal people and all big civilization and empires, since they all had different beliefs and gods, that they all made up their own religion. Rather than one God sending special messengers to each. And, that originally and somehow, all these messages were the same and consistent and progressive with each other. And then, all of them got changed, distorted and messed up by the people?

Like what was the message to China? Who was their messengers? Who was the messenger to the Aztecs or others that sacrificed people to their gods? That would have had to be some distortion of the one God's truth. Plus, since Baha'is support scientific evidence, it seems that anthropological views would be considered important. And I doubt very much that scientific studies would support the belief that all the world's religion came from one source. But then again you have the trump card, your information comes, supposedly, from that one source, God.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm just thinking it's more likely that all tribal people and all big civilization and empires, since they all had different beliefs and gods, that they all made up their own religion. Rather than one God sending special messengers to each.

That would make sense only if there is no God.

And, that originally and somehow, all these messages were the same and consistent and progressive with each other. And then, all of them got changed, distorted and messed up by the people?

The messages from God did all get changed, distorted and messed up by the people

Like what was the message to China? Who was their messengers? Who was the messenger to the Aztecs or others that sacrificed people to their gods? That would have had to be some distortion of the one God's truth. Plus, since Baha'is support scientific evidence, it seems that anthropological views would be considered important. And I doubt very much that scientific studies would support the belief that all the world's religion came from one source. But then again you have the trump card, your information comes, supposedly, from that one source, God.

Yes, I think that all the great world religions come from one source, God. I read recently where Baha'u'llah wrote that God has sent Messengers to all nations, but I do not know who those Messengers were.

“Give ear, O My servant, unto that which is being sent down unto thee from the Throne of thy Lord, the Inaccessible, the Most Great. There is none other God but Him. He hath called into being His creatures, that they may know Him, Who is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful. Unto the cities of all nations He hath sent His Messengers, Whom He hath commissioned to announce unto men tidings of the Paradise of His good pleasure, and to draw them nigh unto the Haven of abiding security, the Seat of eternal holiness and transcendent glory.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 144-145

 

[Trailblazer]

Prior to the coming of Baha'u'llah, which "room" had the light of God in it? The Protestant room? The Catholic room? The Jewish room? and so on with all the other religions? The true Baha'i answer is that none of them had the true light. For Baha'is, the only true light didn't come until Baha'u'llah came and set things right about God and religion.

No, that is not the true Baha'i belief.... It is more like this... The Light has been there all along:

“One who does not know God’s Messengers, however, is like a plant growing in the shade. Although it knows not the sun, it is, nevertheless, absolutely dependent on it. The great Prophets are spirits suns, and Bahá’u’lláh is the sun of this “day” in which we live. The suns of former days have warmed and vivified the world, and had those suns not shone, the earth would not be cold and dead, but it is the sunshine of today that alone can ripen the fruits which the suns of former days have kissed into life.”
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 72

A couple of recent "tests" A hurricane is heading towards Florida. It reaches category 5. But it hits the Grand Bahamas and hovers there. Nice test. Did more people pray in Florida? Did the prayers of the Puerto Ricans divert the storm around them and caused it to wipe out the Bahamas? An old man watched his wife drown as the walls crumbled around where she was hiding. Yeah, he needed to be tested to get stronger. But how about her? She needed to die a horrible death so that in her last gasp for air she turned to God... and what? Thanked him for the "test" that killed her?

Sorry, but there are no answers to these questions. You have free will so you can choose to blame god for everything or you can turn to God. God gives us all this choice. I hated God for many years but then I realized I just do not know the answers to everything. This material world is a storehouse of suffering but it is just temporary and will soon be gone and forgotten.

Then the mass shootings. Hispanic families going to Walmart to get school supplies for their kids. Then almost 2 dozen people shot down? Nice test. Why them? Why did the shooter drive all the way to El Paso and chose that store at that time? What went through his mind and he decided on which people to target?

Nobody knows why them, nobody but God.

Yeah, nice test. El Paso and the nation will probably be a lot stronger now.

Many people will attest to the fact that they are stronger from tests like these.

And many, I'm sure will turn to God. But which God? Since many Hispanics are Catholic or Protestant, they will probably pray to their God... The Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit. And, if Catholic, to Mary also. Since Baha'is don't believe in that God, who hears their prayers?

There is only one true God, that God.

That's all I'm trying to say. Cut Atheists some slack. There are very legitimate reasons to doubt and to question and then reject God and religion. Baha'is reject those beliefs also.

I already answered this part this morning but I will say one more thing. I understand why people do not believe in God. It is not easy and some people do not like hard.

 

[Spirit of Light]

We all believe what we do for some reason. I’m a theist and believe in the God of Abraham. That God I believe is concerned for humanity and for each one of us. Out of His love for us all He’s guided us through His Great Educators such as Christ, Muhammad, the Buddha and Krishna to name a few. What I believe makes perfect sense to me but I can see merit in arguments that would reject such a view. I believe in God because:
1/ It seems rational
2/ It resonates with my experience in life
3/ It works practically.

An atheist could use exactly the same argument of course. I tried atheism for about a year but it was the worst year of my life. Some atheists would probably say the same about their experiences of theism. So I can see how atheism makes sense. It just doesn’t work for me.

Why do you believe what you do? We’re in the religious debates section so feel free to debate. I might too...who knows!? I don’t really like atheist verses theist debates. This could be s first. Let’s see how we go.

My journey to follow the teaching of Buddha Sakyamuni did not start before i was around 15 years old. Before that i was born as a Christian, but it never gave the answers i was looking for. Today after more then 27 years after my new search started i acually found answers i did not see before,within every Religions i studied. But Buddhism was the one that stuck with me and the teachingis beautiful to me. What is so good is that no matter how much i fail, when i go back and read the suttas i will find answers to what went wrong where i failed in following the teaching. And even today i understand something new about our existance and about different religious views.

The teaching is there to guide us toward wht we know as Enlightenment, But it taken me 20 years to understand that i was wrong in my view of what Enlightenment actually is or isn`t This is the beauty of Buddhism, wenever stop learning or understanding
To me that is the true arising of wisdom

 

[CG Didymus]

Good riddance to bad rubbish, people who consider physical pleasure more important than God. God can easily dispense with them

Ancient religions didn't have the same moral codes as the Baha'is. Their gods were okay with sex.

"Asherah is the Canaanite goddess of fertility, growth, and renewal in the cycle of life. She was associated with all that is symbolised by the Tree of Life. Widely worshipped in ancient Israel, she was also known as 'She Who Walked the Sea', and as the consort of Yahweh." "...(G)oddess worship was far from a passing fancy among Hebrews- it was an integral part of their religion. It took a great deal of effort (i.e.- the killing of her worshippers) by the male-dominated priesthood to erase goddess worship from among the people.

These laws can be obeyed even if they aren’t. I was a virgin when I got married at age 32 and my husband was also a virgin and he was 42. Just because some Baha’is find it “inconvenient” to deny their sexual desires does not mean it cannot be done and there is a great reward for those people who adhere to the law...

So this is what I found in the book "Unrestrained as the Wind" about the sexual moral codes of the Baha'is. I'll paraphrase it. Page 145: The kissing that goes on in modern society is not in keeping with being pure and chaste. It leads to doing other things. On page 149: It says that there is no lawful sexual act outside of marriage. And it says masturbation is not a proper use of the sex impulse. Homosexuality, forget about it. An absolute no for Baha'is.

So does a non-married Baha'i kiss or play with themselves? Then no, they are not obeying the Baha'i moral codes. Can Baha'is live up to this standard? Not the ones I knew and never could the Christians that had similar standards. So what I think is happening and probably will continue to happen is that it will push people into leading duel lives. Their life with the other Baha'is and then their secret life. And it don't even got to include porn sites, or strip clubs, or having affairs... it's kissing and touching ones self. If a person can't live by those supposed standards of an invisible God, why would they want to believe that God is real?

 

[Trailblazer]

Ancient religions didn't have the same moral codes as the Baha'is. Their gods were okay with sex.

"Asherah is the Canaanite goddess of fertility, growth, and renewal in the cycle of life. She was associated with all that is symbolised by the Tree of Life. Widely worshipped in ancient Israel, she was also known as 'She Who Walked the Sea', and as the consort of Yahweh." "...(G)oddess worship was far from a passing fancy among Hebrews- it was an integral part of their religion. It took a great deal of effort (i.e.- the killing of her worshippers) by the male-dominated priesthood to erase goddess worship from among the people.

The Baha'i Faith is also okay with sex as long as it is within marriage.

So this is what I found in the book "Unrestrained as the Wind" about the sexual moral codes of the Baha'is. I'll paraphrase it. Page 145: The kissing that goes on in modern society is not in keeping with being pure and chaste. It leads to doing other things. On page 149: It says that there is no lawful sexual act outside of marriage. And it says masturbation is not a proper use of the sex impulse. Homosexuality, forget about it. An absolute no for Baha'is.

So does a non-married Baha'i kiss or play with themselves? Then no, they are not obeying the Baha'i moral codes. Can Baha'is live up to this standard? Not the ones I knew and never could the Christians that had similar standards. So what I think is happening and probably will continue to happen is that it will push people into leading duel lives. Their life with the other Baha'is and then their secret life. And it don't even got to include porn sites, or strip clubs, or having affairs... it's kissing and touching ones self. If a person can't live by those supposed standards of an invisible God, why would they want to believe that God is real?

What a person might want to ask themselves is why they are so obsessed with sex. Yes, Baha'is can live up to this standard and I know Baha'is who do. I cannot say what all the Baha'is do but that does not matter as the law is the law. I think it is rather pathetic that people would consider sex more important than God, but then that's just me.

The Baha'i Faith is not going to go anywhere until the Baha'is start living up to the Baha'i standards, so what happens is that those Baha'is who don't are ruining it for the others and bringing disgrace upon the Cause of God, just because they cannot control their carnal desires. However, whatever they do in the privacy of their own home is just between them and God.

“My captivity can bring on Me no shame. Nay, by My life, it conferreth on Me glory. That which can make Me ashamed is the conduct of such of My followers as profess to love Me, yet in fact follow the Evil One. They, indeed, are of the lost.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 118

 

[Goodman John]

God knows some people will follow the laws and others won't. That is their choice. It won't hurt God if people do not follow the laws, it only hurts the people. It is not impossible to follow the rules, some people just do not WANT TO because they are attached to the things of the world instead of to God.

From the Baha'i point of view, what is to be done with those who 'attach themselves to the things of the world instead of to God'? Are they doomed to some sort of everlasting punishment, or do they simply die, or do they 'come back' for another chance at the Great Game of Life?

 

[Trailblazer]

From the Baha'i point of view, what is to be done with those who 'attach themselves to the things of the world instead of to God'? Are they doomed to some sort of everlasting punishment, or do they simply die, or do they 'come back' for another chance at the Great Game of Life?

I cannot really say exactly what will happen to them in the afterlife. Only God knows. I only have what Baha'u'llah has written which *indicates* what will happen in a very general sense. My interpretation of the following passage is that those who "attach themselves to the things of the world instead of to God" will become victims of self and passion and will end up in hell after they die.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

Mind you, Baha'is do not believe that hell is an actual place but rather it is the state of the soul who is far from God. People make their own hell by the selfish choices they make, God does not send anyone to hell.

According to the Baha'i Faith beliefs, we will not have a second chance because we will never return to this world for another chance.

 

[Jimmy]

We all believe what we do for some reason. I’m a theist and believe in the God of Abraham. That God I believe is concerned for humanity and for each one of us. Out of His love for us all He’s guided us through His Great Educators such as Christ, Muhammad, the Buddha and Krishna to name a few. What I believe makes perfect sense to me but I can see merit in arguments that would reject such a view. I believe in God because:
1/ It seems rational
2/ It resonates with my experience in life
3/ It works practically.

An atheist could use exactly the same argument of course. I tried atheism for about a year but it was the worst year of my life. Some atheists would probably say the same about their experiences of theism. So I can see how atheism makes sense. It just doesn’t work for me.

Why do you believe what you do? We’re in the religious debates section so feel free to debate. I might too...who knows!? I don’t really like atheist verses theist debates. This could be s first. Let’s see how we go.

I just find God a little more interesting than a stone or nothing