What are the best arguments in favor of theism and against atheism?

[ChristineM]

Now I have not used the term universal reality to describe a faith, but merely state reality, pantheism defines God as the oneness that is all, iow, the universe is God manifested.

Then it would seem we are arguing about nothing until you read your posts.

You say you don't use the term to describe faith while continuing to describe your faith, god etc as universal

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Then it would seem we are arguing about nothing until you read your posts.

You say you don't use the term to describe faith while continuing to describe your faith, god etc as universal

As a atheist, you do not understand, the reality represented by the concept of God is realizable, not by the personal ego, but by the cessation of the thinking 'I'. Any dualistic form of religious practice or faith that involves a seeker after God, will not result in union with God because nothing that is separate from God can ever enter into God. This illusion of separation, the sense of 'I' existing as a distinct separate entity from the universal environment in which it sees itself is brought about by the dualistic mind, and there in lies the answer to transcending duality, still the mind so the 'I' does not arise to disturb the natural non-duality of existence.

 

[ChristineM]

As a atheist, you do not understand, the reality represented by the concept of God is realizable, not by the personal ego, but by the cessation of the thinking 'I'. Any dualistic form of religious practice or faith that involves a seeker after God, will not result in union with God because nothing that is separate from God can ever enter into God. This illusion of separation, the sense of 'I' existing as a distinct separate entity from the universal environment in which it sees itself is brought about by the dualistic mind, and there in lies the answer to transcending duality, still the mind so the 'I' does not arise to disturb the natural non-duality of existence.

I was not always an atheist, and there is no reality in gods, they are faith based ideas. I.e. of the mind, not real.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I was not always an atheist, and there is no reality in gods, they are faith based ideas. I.e. of the mind, not real.

But the universe exists, there is no faith needed, God is all there is. If you were taught that God was somehow separate from the manifest universe, then I don't doubt you lost faith, for God is the one that is all.

 

[ChristineM]

But the universe exists, there is no faith needed, God is all there is. If you were taught that God was somehow separate from the manifest universe, then I don't doubt you lost faith, for God is the one that is all.

Yes the universe exists, there is proof of this

Now provide proof a god or god's exist.
Bet ya can't, well at least no one has to date. If you can provide such incontrovertible evidence you could end atheism in a stroke, you woiuld be rich and famous, i bet you'd have the phone numbers of the world's religious leaders on speed dial, they'd be falling over themselves to honour you. Give it a try by all means

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yes the universe exists, there is proof of this

Now provide proof a god or god's exist.
Bet ya can't, well at least no one has to date. If you can provide such incontrovertible evidence you could end atheism in a stroke, you woiuld be rich and famous, i bet you'd have the phone numbers of the world's religious leaders on speed dial, they'd be falling over themselves to honour you. Give it a try by all means

But I keep explaining, the universe is God manifest, the concept God is meant to represent the universe, seen and unseen. By seen, I mean the 2.5% (5%) available to human sensory perception...What is the Universe Made Of? - SpaceRef

If you want to not believe in a God that does not exist, I commend you, but you can not deny the God/Universe that does exist. You as an atheist may not accept the name God as acceptable to represent the universe, but many of us do, so there.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

But I keep explaining, the universe is God manifest, the concept God is meant to represent the universe, seen and unseen. By seen, I mean the 2.5% (5%) available to human sensory perception...What is the Universe Made Of? - SpaceRef

If you want to not believe in a God that does not exist, I commend you, but you can not deny the God/Universe that does exist. You as an atheist may not accept the name God as acceptable to represent the universe, but many of us do, so there.

What is the difference, to you, of saying "The Universe is God" and saying "The Universe is the Universe"?

Also, what does calling the Universe "God" actually mean? What different quality does a Universe that can be called "God" have that a Universe that is called "a Universe" doesn't have? Does calling the Universe "God" increase our understanding of the Universe or our concept of God?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

What is the difference, to you, of saying "The Universe is God" and saying "The Universe is the Universe"?

Also, what does calling the Universe "God" actually mean? What different quality does a Universe that can be called "God" have that a Universe that is called "a Universe" doesn't have? Does calling the Universe "God" increase our understanding of the Universe or our concept of God?

It all depends on each person's understanding of the what the concept of God and universe is in terms of actual reality. Some people think the universe is devoid of life and or intelligence/awareness, some think it came into existence from nothing, created by some God, or it is eternal, etc.

In my case, I understand the universe is eternal and one, all that exists is merely an expression of the one universe, be it a subatomic particle or a galaxy. Any and all intelligence that exists is an aspect of the universe, nothing exists that is not as aspect of the one. The totality of this one existence I am inclined to give the name God, but not exclusively, depending who I am discussing reality with, I am just at home with calling it Brahman, Tao, Cosmos, Universe, etc.. The quality that gives the universe worthiness of the name God is not in verbal description, but in realizing the fullness of it beyond the mind's conception.

 

[ChristineM]

But I keep explaining, the universe is God manifest, the concept God is meant to represent the universe, seen and unseen. By seen, I mean the 2.5% (5%) available to human sensory perception...What is the Universe Made Of? - SpaceRef

If you want to not believe in a God that does not exist, I commend you, but you can not deny the God/Universe that does exist. You as an atheist may not accept the name God as acceptable to represent the universe, but many of us do, so there.

And i keep explaining that is illusion.

Yes i can deny god exists and i can provide several factual evidence's to back that up, pity no god believer can say the same. Whst you do insted is fuzzy the borderer between real (universe) and imaginary (gods) which only shows your misunderstanding of reality.

Yes many of you have faith, i have no problem with that, the problem i have is when the faithful need to lie about their belief system to justify that faith to themselves.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It all depends on each person's understanding of the what the concept of God and universe is in terms of actual reality. Some people think the universe is devoid of life and or intelligence/awareness, some think it came into existence from nothing, created by some God, or it is eternal, etc.

In my case, I understand the universe is eternal and one, all that exists is merely an expression of the one universe, be it a subatomic particle or a galaxy. Any and all intelligence that exists is an aspect of the universe, nothing exists that is not as aspect of the one. The totality of this one existence I am inclined to give the name God, but not exclusively, depending who I am discussing reality with, I am just at home with calling it Brahman, Tao, Cosmos, Universe, etc.. The quality that gives the universe worthiness of the name God is not in verbal description, but in realizing the fullness of it beyond the mind's conception.

With due respect, you didn't really answer any of my questions.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

And i keep explaining that is illusion.

Yes i can deny god exists and i can provide several factual evidence's to back that up, pity no god believer can say the same. Whst you do insted is fuzzy the borderer between real (universe) and imaginary (gods) which only shows your misunderstanding of reality.

Yes many of you have faith, i have no problem with that, the problem i have is when the faithful need to lie about their belief system to justify that faith to themselves.

Haha...because you have not realized the reality represented by some as Tao, God, etc., then it does not exist. Well that's fine for you as an atheist, but you do not speak for those who have. And this is not about faith, not about belief, but about actual realization. You can be as skeptical as you like, but if lack the realization, then it is vanity for you to prejudge.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

With due respect, you didn't really answer any of my questions.

Wow, what a feeble excuse, what part of my answer did you not understand? The universe is God, God is the universe manifest, it is pantheism.

 

[ChristineM]

Haha...because you have not realized the reality represented by some as Tao, God, etc., then it does not exist. Well that's fine for you as an atheist, but you do not speak for those who have. And this is not about faith, not about belief, but about actual realization. You can be as skeptical as you like, but if lack the realization, then it is vanity for you to prejudge.

Seems you are still having problems with the concept of reality

Ok so you want to claim reality, provide your evidence for the reality of a god?

I saw "a" god because excluding Hinduism which has literally billions of personal god's, there are over 4800 claimed god's in human civilisation, more than 3200 of them are claimed "one god's". So which of these 3200 is your claimed one god? Be specific and provide valid argument to discount the others.

Yes, i am afraid it is completely about faith and belief. Completely.

Unlike you who tries to trivialise my knowledge and understanding, i say you are welcome to your faith and belief, just don't invent lies that demean knowledge just to justify your faith

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Seems you are still having problems with the concept of reality

Ok so you want to claim reality, provide your evidence for the reality of a god?

I saw "a" god because excluding Hinduism which has literally billions of personal god's, there are over 4800 claimed god's in human civilisation, more than 3200 of them are claimed "one god's". So which of these 3200 is your claimed one god? Be specific and provide valid argument to discount the others.

Yes, i am afraid it is completely about faith and belief. Completely.

Unlike you who tries to trivialise my knowledge and understanding, i say you are welcome to your faith and belief, just don't invent lies that demean knowledge just to justify your faith

Christine, if you believe the reality represented by the concept God is completely about faith and belief, then so be it, but that does not make it so, nor will it ever allow understanding of the deeper mysteries of life. Belief is just a mental construct, it does not in the slightest effect the reality of universal existence. The evidence of which you seek for the reality represented by the name God is not a mental concept, it is realization, and another's successful realization does not mean it can be transferred to another.

There is this old mystical saying which probably does not make sense to you as a non-student of divinity, but it is the best explanation wrt God realization, God can only reveal God to God, there is no other revelation.

 

[ChristineM]

Christine, if you believe the reality represented by the concept God is completely about faith and belief, then so be it, but that does not make it so, nor will it ever allow understanding of the deeper mysteries of life. Belief is just a mental construct, it does not in the slightest effect the reality of universal existence. The evidence of which you seek for the reality represented by the name God is not a mental concept, it is realization, and another's successful realization does not mean it can be transferred to another.

There is this old mystical saying which probably does not make sense to you as a non-student of divinity, but it is the best explanation wrt God realization, God can only reveal God to God, there is no other revelation.

There is no reality in the concept of god

So you have no evidence then, i though not

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Wow, what a feeble excuse, what part of my answer did you not understand? The universe is God, God is the universe manifest, it is pantheism.

But by that definition, how does saying "The Universe is God" differ from saying "The Universe is the Universe"? What does applying the label "God" to the Universe add to our understanding OF the Universe or the concept of God?

I was very specific about these questions and you have a response that was absolutely non-specific and largely meaningless. Please try again and answer my questions.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

There is no reality in the concept of god

So you have no evidence then, i though not

Though you though not, reality itself is within, think not about it and it will reveal itself in due course if your heart is pure..

 

[Ben Dhyan]

But by that definition, how does saying "The Universe is God" differ from saying "The Universe is the Universe"? What does applying the label "God" to the Universe add to our understanding OF the Universe or the concept of God?

I was very specific about these questions and you have a response that was absolutely non-specific and largely meaningless. Please try again and answer my questions.

What is called the universe by a conceptualizing human mind, is called God manifest by pantheistic religious mind. Science and religion do not have the same goal, nor is the methodology the same. The goal of religion is to be one with ultimate reality, aka God, the goal of science is to learn and understand the physical universe. The scientific method is based on conceptual knowledge, the religious method is based on transcending conceptual knowledge. Conceptual knowledge is based on duality, transcendence is based on non-duality.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

What is called the universe by a conceptualizing human mind, is called God manifest by pantheistic religious mind.

The question is "What is the DIFFERENCE?"

Science and religion do not have the same goal, nor is the methodology the same. The goal of religion is to be one with ultimate reality, aka God, the goal of science is to learn and understand the physical universe. The scientific method is based on conceptual knowledge, the religious method is based on transcending conceptual knowledge. Conceptual knowledge is based on duality, transcendence is based on non-duality.

Again, this has nothing to do with anything I asked.

Why can't you answer a few simple questions?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The question is "What is the DIFFERENCE?"


Again, this has nothing to do with anything I asked.

Why can't you answer a few simple questions?

All your questions have been addressed, the problem is you do not understand what is being said to you. In order to find out what prerequisite understanding is lacking on your part that is responsible for your not understanding what is being said to you, we need to explore a bit. So let me ask you, do you know the difference between a conceptualizing mind and a non-conceptualizing mind? Do you know the difference between the manifest universe and the unmanifest universe?