What Are the Options for Trump Voters Who Don't Feel Listened to by the Democratic Party?

[sun rise]

I would love another originalist and Constitutionalist and get back to what these Unites States is about.

There are some issues, like this one, which are not reconcilable. I totally disagree that originalism is the way to go because it does not recognize that times changes.

Certainly there are fundamentals that need to be respected, but to lock the US into what I see are dead forms is to lead to decay and destruction.

 

[Kenny]

There are some issues, like this one, which are not reconcilable. I totally disagree that originalism is the way to go because it does not recognize that times changes.

Certainly there are fundamentals that need to be respected, but to lock the US into what I see are dead forms is to lead to decay and destruction.

Originalism is still pliable if it needs to be updated to conform to today's standards(as I understood from the latest questions given to the potential new Supreme Court nominee)... but it generally isn't the norm but an exception. Abortion laws (originalist) would look at the law as "what was the intent of that law"--a proper way to look at it vs people pushing as an agenda... for an example.

Very modern but still applicable

I don't see it as a dead form but alive and well. If it weren't so, we wouldn't have originalists. What we find is that people that don't agree with their decisions feel like that it is outdated whereas it just may be that they just don't agree with it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If someone doesn't think Democrats have middle-class policies, then they haven't done their research.
Democrats always put forth middle-class policies, while republicans put forth capitalist/corporate/1% policies.
Look at the contrast on middle-class policies below:

-Public Education = Democrat support = middle-class
-Minimum wage increase = Democrat support = middle-class
-Workers rights and protections = Democrat support = middle-class
-Health care for all = Democrat support = middle class
-Lower taxes on middle-class = Democrat support = middle-class
-Climate Change = Democrat support = middle-class
-Unions = Democrat support = middle-class
-Small Business = Democrat support = middle-class
-More safety laws (regulations) = Democrat support = middle-class
-Equal rights for all = Democrat support = middle-class
-etc

It goes on and on. Republicans do not support any of the above. Either people aren't doing their homework or are being mislead from the capitalist/elitist republicans with corporate interests only.

Republicans talk a big folksy game and jobs, etc. I can look at data and understand republicans do absolutely nothing for the middle-class. By design.

When people realize that the republican corporate establishment is only using them for their vote, them maybe things will change. Once you elect a republican, expect to be ignored after the politics and emotional trickery.

Democrats = NAFTA.

 

[Twilight Hue]

If someone doesn't think Democrats have middle-class policies, then they haven't done their research.
Democrats always put forth middle-class policies, while republicans put forth capitalist/corporate/1% policies.
Look at the contrast on middle-class policies below:

-Public Education = Democrat support = middle-class
-Minimum wage increase = Democrat support = middle-class
-Workers rights and protections = Democrat support = middle-class
-Health care for all = Democrat support = middle class
-Lower taxes on middle-class = Democrat support = middle-class
-Climate Change = Democrat support = middle-class
-Unions = Democrat support = middle-class
-Small Business = Democrat support = middle-class
-More safety laws (regulations) = Democrat support = middle-class
-Equal rights for all = Democrat support = middle-class
-etc

It goes on and on. Republicans do not support any of the above. Either people aren't doing their homework or are being mislead from the capitalist/elitist republicans with corporate interests only.

Republicans talk a big folksy game and jobs, etc. I can look at data and understand republicans do absolutely nothing for the middle-class. By design.

When people realize that the republican corporate establishment is only using them for their vote, them maybe things will change. Once you elect a republican, expect to be ignored after the politics and emotional trickery.

Sounds pretty oppressive.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

Democrats = NAFTA.

Can you please cite a report on how NAFTA has hurt the US economy? I hear it complained about a lot, but evidence is never given.
A report by economists please. Not anecdotal or unbacked accounts.

Thank you.

 

[Stevicus]

A recent thread I made where I asked Trump voters/supporters why they supported him has led me to the conclusion that some Trump supporters plan to vote for him because nobody has addressed their most pressing, everyday concerns such as finances, employment, etc.

So my question is this: Even if a Trump supporter is mistaken in the perception that Trump is going to address their concerns, what is the alternative? Realistically, the Democratic Party is the only other option, and a Trump supporter isn't going to vote for them if they feel their everyday concerns aren't going to be addressed.

I'm not talking about the white supremacists or gun-toting extremists who support Trump for clearly malicious reasons. I'm talking about the subset of his supporters who are average Joes/Janes with middle- or working-class jobs and are concerned about how they're going to pay their bills next month because, as far as they can see, Democrats won't make things any better for their situation.

I would like this thread to be an opportunity to see more perspectives because discussions about Trump often seem focused on the most morally bankrupt portion of his base. This one focuses on a different portion thereof, so hopefully it could help me gain a better and more realistic understanding of how other politicians could best address their concerns and perhaps win their votes.

A common criticism I've heard about the Democrats - or at least the top leaders in the Democratic Party - is that they're out of touch. One often hears about "coastal elites" viewing Middle America as "flyover country," indicating a certain level of scorn and derision towards large sections of America. Some of it also has to do with America itself, as America's present has struggled to reconcile with America's past, both the recent past and earlier eras.

I've noticed that, among those who are thoroughly anti-Trump, some of them seem genuinely confused by those who support Trump. Either that, or they're quick to pigeon-hole them into some of the more odious factions out there (and in some cases, this is probably true). But the thing that strikes me is that, I get a very strong impression that they really don't understand certain parts of the US population or its political culture (some of the more subtle aspects that may not show up in official propaganda or in the mainstream media).

I don't think there are that many extremists in Trump's power base or even America itself. However, I think there may be sections of the US which may be considered "at risk" or vulnerable to extremist rhetoric. However, they're probably more America Firsters than out-and-out white supremacists (although there may be some overlap). Although there are also a number of working class folks who agree with the America Firsters regarding the US industrial base and wanting to bring back manufacturing to the US.

Thing is, the Democrats resisted the idea of outsourcing and sending US jobs overseas to exploit cheap labor and sweatshops - at least until Clinton took office, and he was somehow able to shift the direction of the Democratic Party to being more like the Republicans, at least on the issue of free trade and other economic policies. Since then, both parties have favored candidates who supported free trade and continued globalist policies. Trump said he was going to bring back manufacturing jobs, restore America's industrial base, and repair our crumbling infrastructure. Any Democratic candidate could have said this - or something to that effect. They should have said it. The FIRE economic model does not work. Manufacturing is vital to the lifeblood of any industrial economy. The Democrats used to believe this, and they were also heavily pro-union, but something happened to them.

 

[Valjean]

Slayer, your question is asking for too much. For simplification, there are two sides of the political spectrum; call it the Liberal and the Conservative. I don't feel one party can have both Liberals and Conservatives feeling like they are being listened to and supported by one party's policies.

Many Conservatives can feel Trump's embarrassing clownishness but the Republican Party is still their best vehicle for support of their views.

Listen to the strong liberals and the strong conservatives debate and ask how can one party make both sides feel they are being listened to and responded to? Can't be done.

Alas, neither of the mainstream American parties is 'liberal'.

 

[Valjean]

Can you please cite a report on how NAFTA has hurt the US economy? I hear it complained about a lot, but evidence is never given.
A report by economists please. Not anecdotal or unbacked accounts.

Thank you.

Corporations moving to Mexico?

 

[Daemon Sophic]

-Public Education = Democrat support = and Republicans.
-Minimum wage increase = Democrat support = middle-class = no, only those below poverty line for which there is ample help.
-Workers rights and protections = Democrat support = middle-class - I support workers rights and protections - don't see where republicans don't
-Health care for all = Democrat support = middle class - we reject only the one for all - not the concept
-Lower taxes on middle-class = Democrat support = middle-class - That is EXACTLY what Trump did.
-Climate Change = Democrat support = middle-class - has nothing to do with middle class
-Unions = Democrat support = middle-class - toss up - I agree with them until they become the one that makes business go down as my Uncle said when he worked for GM.
-Small Business = Democrat support = middle-class - also Republicans but Democrat supported Nafta... not exactly a small Business in mind
-More safety laws (regulations) = Democrat support = middle-class - depends what you mean by that
-Equal rights for all = Democrat support = middle-class - Republicans position too.

Doesn't seem like there is that much of a difference.

I know its highly unlikely that anyone will read past their own biases, but here is a big splash of reality anyways.

Middle class economy and taxes. Ten actions that hurt workers during Trump’s first year: How Trump and Congress further rigged the economy in favor of the wealthy
How Trump has betrayed the working class | Robert Reich
It wasn’t China that ruined the middle class; it was Republican policies

Small business. The Big Lie that Conservative Policies Are Good for Small Business - Center for American Progress
Republican Tax Plans Would Largely Exclude Small Businesses — and Could Even Hurt Them

Public education. Why the Right Hates Public Education - Rethinking Schools
Why Republicans have long wanted to shut Education Department
What the Republican platform says about education This one is probably a big factor in why the GOP refused to publish a new platform this year. Scary.

Workers’ rights and protections. How President Trump and congressional Republicans are undercutting wages and protections for working people
Trumping Labor: The Republican Plan to Gut Workers’ Rights – BillMoyers.com
Democrats have an ambitious plan to save American labor unions

Equal rights. The Trump Administration Human Rights Tracker
https://www.americanprogress.org/is...mps-alarming-human-rights-agenda-home-abroad/

 

[Daemon Sophic]

Corporations moving to Mexico?

...and the economist’s report that demonstrates this is....where?

 

[sun rise]

Originalism is still pliable if it needs to be updated to conform to today's standards(as I understood from the latest questions given to the potential new Supreme Court nominee)... but it generally isn't the norm but an exception. Abortion laws (originalist) would look at the law as "what was the intent of that law"--a proper way to look at it vs people pushing as an agenda... for an example.

Very modern but still applicable

I don't see it as a dead form but alive and well. If it weren't so, we wouldn't have originalists. What we find is that people that don't agree with their decisions feel like that it is outdated whereas it just may be that they just don't agree with it.

As Wikipedia outlines, there are multiple ways of interpreting the Constitution and laws: Judicial interpretation - Wikipedia

• Living Constitution/living tree doctrine
• Originalism (original meaning)
• Original intent
  (legislative intent, legislative history)
• Strict constructionism
• Textualism
• Purposive approach

And of course people agree or disagree with any interpretation that contradicts what they believe should be the outcome whether they be originalists or living. People are people.

But I think the Country is best served by having justices with different approaches to the Constitution and the law. There were times, for example, when Scalia joined with the "liberal wing" on a case with very different reasoning and when a "liberal" justice joined with the "conservatives".

Actually the problem is that the Court has become yet another legislative arm as we're seeing now with the right pushing a right-wing candidate to be a Justice to ensure right wing decisions from the court.

That, of course, invites a backlash when Democrats add Justices to "redress the balance". It's the combination of the Merrick Garland affair with the current nominee that tees up the great wish to undo what the right has done over the past four years.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Can you please cite a report on how NAFTA has hurt the US economy? I hear it complained about a lot, but evidence is never given.
A report by economists please. Not anecdotal or unbacked accounts.

Thank you.

It opened the door to send manufacturing jobs away. It was devestating for American workers. And, notice. I never made a claim about the economy. I am referring to manufacturing jobs that were lost as a result amd never came back. Wages went down. And jobs that rellied on manufacturing (such as service jobs) were lost.

 

[George-ananda]

Alas, neither of the mainstream American parties is 'liberal'.

The Democrats are the liberals. I am guessing they’re not liberal enough for you lol.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

It opened the door to send manufacturing jobs away. It was devestating for American workers. And, notice. I never made a claim about the economy. I am referring to manufacturing jobs that were lost as a result amd never came back. Wages went down. And jobs that rellied on manufacturing (such as service jobs) were lost.

Yes. yes. That’s the common lore.
But every economist report that I’ve reviewed show either negligible change or even a benefit to US workers.

 

[Valjean]

...and the economist’s report that demonstrates this is....where?

6 Negative Effects of NAFTA

 

[Valjean]

It opened the door to send manufacturing jobs away. It was devestating for American workers. And, notice. I never made a claim about the economy. I am referring to manufacturing jobs that were lost as a result amd never came back. Wages went down. And jobs that rellied on manufacturing (such as service jobs) were lost.

It was devastating for Mexican farmers and small businessmen, as well -- and guess where this army of unemployed migrated....

 

[Valjean]

The Democrats are the liberals. I am guessing they’re not liberal enough for you lol.

That's true. I'm registered Green, not Democrat, but, as Thomas Frank pointed out, the Democrats -- traditionally the party of the working class -- abandoned that class for the more lucrative coffers of the technical class, leaving the workers -- and much of the middle class -- flailing in the wind.
The Republicans were quick to exploit this, and convinced the angry and abandoned workers that this was all the fault of the "liberals," and that the corporate "job makers" were their real friends.

Today's Democrats are right of Reagan, right of Nixon -- right of Eisenhower, for heaven's sake....

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes. yes. That’s the common lore.
But every economist report that I’ve reviewed show either negligible change or even a benefit to US workers.

Economists also say the economy was doing well and recovering wonderfully under Obama.
BUT--and this is a major, huge but--overall those economic gains were mostly going straight to the top, the middle class continued to dwindle, and wages continued to stagnate despite economists claiming things are good (and by those numbers, they were. But those numbers are basically only how well investors and elites are doing, not the common citizen).
NAFTA send jobs away and they never came back. It was signed into law, manufacturing jobs plummeted by 30%.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The Democrats are the liberals. I am guessing they’re not liberal enough for you lol.

Democrats are pro-establishment conservatives. They things they promote that are labeled "liberal" or "progressive" or even "socialist" here in America are just regular, basic, "plane Jane" centrist issues in other countries.

 

[Mindmaster]

So my question is this: Even if a Trump supporter is mistaken in the perception that Trump is going to address their concerns, what is the alternative? Realistically, the Democratic Party is the only other option, and a Trump supporter isn't going to vote for them if they feel their everyday concerns aren't going to be addressed.

My support for Trump is simple: Meat and potatoes. That's it, it's not complex or aloof or difficult to grasp.

I think that Democrats have been pounding the pavement for things that sound great, but don't translate into a workable reality or are so expensive that they're not realistically achieved. I find myself in agreement with many of the social concerns Dems have, but I don't know how they can do them without destroying us in the process. That's not saying I reject the ideas, but rather I don't know if they're the one's to implement them. (I feel that they've been historically bad at this.) I prefer a gradual more conservative and organic process of change than what they seem to believe in. My concern is usually they're 'going too fast with that' and it's just because I feel it takes time to acclimate to new things. There are certain things where I think they're specifically barking up the wrong tree.

1) LGBT rights - This has to come organically to stick and not build resentment. It's much better than it was, but to go further is really just takes time.

2) Abortion - Ideally, we have the means to have zero of these. We should make that happen and discourage the practice. It's not something to be celebrated or even sought. It should be something we are doing only in medical emergencies to save someone's life.

3) Climate - I agree with much of what the concerns are with Dems, but I also disagree on implementation. They've sort of pushed for a heavy-handed approach. I don't want pollution at all, but at the same time I realize we're not at a sum zero in technology where we can do that. -YET-. Meanwhile, people gotta eat. I'd favor an approach which is much more cognizant of both the economic and human concerns. Do whatever we can w/o cutting our throats in the process, etc.

4) Race - Nonsense. If your life sucks at the moment, I guarantee your race has nothing to do with it. I won't even entertain that dialogue in the affirmative, or not. This is similar to the LGBT issue in that any actual remaining racism needs to get worked out over time/acclimation. But, I still think it's 1% of what it was in the 60's and it's to the point of diminishing returns. Resources spent here presently don't really translate into results... It's a dead issue for me, and not something I vote in consideration of.

5) Proxy wars, globalism, etc. - Totally against these things in entirety. Trump rejects it, Tulsi rejected it, and so on. I'm so over the endless useless conflicts. The Dem donors are the war hawks and they are going to have to appease this constituency. I'm against Biden mostly on this issue and the meat & potatoes. I don't think Biden can do better than Trump on the economy... He's had his shots and never took them.