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What Are the Options for Trump Voters Who Don't Feel Listened to by the Democratic Party?

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member

Well... this one was easy... maybe I'll try another.

This seems to be an alarmist opinion piece. It was written in 2018 and nothing it said was enacted and certainly downsizing government is a good thing.

Education has continued without hindrances.

It says it was created to save money... how much has it saved? Or how much has it siphoned of off money for teachers and education?

The second is just a conservative hack piece. The title itself shows its colors. As a matter of fact, does she have a pro-conservative comment?
 
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Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
There seems to be significant differences in the approach to the place of government in a society and the responsibilities of society to itself that really can't be crossed by the unity of a "not Trump" approach by anyone who care deeply about their respective ideologies.
As a non-US resident with very limited understanding of US politics this is the impression I have as well. That said, I think our limited awareness may be causing us to oversimplify a lot?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member

Last one:

Center for American Progress - Wikipedia


The Center for American Progress was created in 2003 as a left-leaning alternative to think tanks such as the Heritage Foundation and the American Enterprise Institute.[7] In 2011, the Washington Post's Jason Horowitz described the Center for American Progress as "Washington’s leading liberal think tank," and "an incessant advocate for a broad progressive agenda and as such, a sharp thorn in President Obama’s left side. Horowitz further concluded that the Center, more broadly, had since become one of "Washington’s leading liberal think tanks."[8]

This say it all....

If all you read are left-leaning, conservative-trashing, anti-Republican hit pieces, then I can understand why you have your viewpoint.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
As Wikipedia outlines, there are multiple ways of interpreting the Constitution and laws: Judicial interpretation - Wikipedia
And of course people agree or disagree with any interpretation that contradicts what they believe should be the outcome whether they be originalists or living. People are people.

But I think the Country is best served by having justices with different approaches to the Constitution and the law. There were times, for example, when Scalia joined with the "liberal wing" on a case with very different reasoning and when a "liberal" justice joined with the "conservatives".

Actually the problem is that the Court has become yet another legislative arm as we're seeing now with the right pushing a right-wing candidate to be a Justice to ensure right wing decisions from the court.

That, of course, invites a backlash when Democrats add Justices to "redress the balance". It's the combination of the Merrick Garland affair with the current nominee that tees up the great wish to undo what the right has done over the past four years.

Yes....there are differing viewpoints.

But what you are saying is "redress the balance" means - "tilt it in the way YOU want it" by increasing the numbers for that specific purpose.

Though legal.... I don't agree with it. Tried before and it was just as wrong then. Even Ginsberg didn't agree with packing the court.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Everything will work out fine, always does under democratic administrations. You'll also see the middle class start making a comeback. The republican capitalists won't like that.

Seems to work out in some fashion under all administration in my experience. Occasional one group or another will start clutching their pearls. I suppose if we can't have religious moral outrage we gots to have political moral outrage. I don't think the US is so fragile to be dependent on who gets elected president.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
As a non-US resident with very limited understanding of US politics this is the impression I have as well. That said, I think our limited awareness may be causing us to oversimplify a lot?
I kind of thought I was saying the opposite. That the differences can't be minimized in order to create that unity.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
I kind of thought I was saying the opposite. That the differences can't be minimized in order to create that unity.
Yeah, I got that; I meant that maybe we're jumping the gun and maybe some of them can given our limited knowledge. Or I guess I'm just too optimistic. It came from a conversation I had last night with @Vouthon wherein we did the Political Compass together; we usually end up on opposite sides, yet surprisingly on finding out how each other answered the questions, we had way, way more in common than the results would have suggested. I was just wondering if we were missing some nuance here and there.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
That's really a loaded statement. What, specifically, does 'what these United States is about' mean to you and your support for Trump as opposed to Biden since it is the president who nominates a justice?

If it doesn't matter... why not nominate now?
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
How about some real problems, like healthcare or education or housing?

I think these problems are mostly local in scope... That's why I don't really address them in the context of the President. They're important, but the federal level of government doesn't really do much but write checks or regulate them on an interstate basis.

Our government is bad at healthcare and everything was better when they largely weren't involved. (I still think you need a medicare/medicaid alternative for the under-employed/old.) I just think that states have a lot of unique problems in this regard and they gotta deal with the problem closer to home for responsiveness.... I mean California and South Dakota for example have such a different set of needs it's hard to put them in the same box and come up with something workable.

Education needs to be gutted -- it's too costly, and too much is being taught that doesn't lead to an income. Again, most of this is under state level control. We like to pretend that it's one educational system, but really the 50 states have 50 different ideas of schooling. I'm particularly against the removal of hands-on elective classes like shop, home economics, and things of that nature. (Which has been all the trend in recent years...) Education needs to give you basic life skills, and I think it's failing on that and replacing most of the useful things with fluff. College is largely useless at this point unless you're in a medical, legal field, or a trade (where they actually give you a sort of apprenticeship). The focus of education has moved into a bunch of useless and impractical concerns and none of it leaves you without anything but a fat bill. Many of my friends have children that have spent on college and are not working in the field of their major. We need to change that. The costs have gone up mostly because the government gives the schools unlimited funny money via the loan program. Schools used to be so much cheaper, and teach you way more.

Housing is complex, but I'd say it was largely better with no government involvement. I'm old enough to remember when the govt wasn't giving out all the funny money and Section 8 and so on, and the prices were WAY lower. (like half or less, lol.) This artificial stimuli has done nothing but drive up prices and make the path of ownership even more difficult. This is another situation where the govt has largely hurt that rather than help it. (like schools) The market for housing needs to be more natural and then it would sort of resolve itself.

So, I guess in these areas I am highly conservative, but it's because I've been alive long enough to know days when education, housing, and healthcare were a lot cheaper. The only real gain on the healthcare front from a government perspective is the pre-existing condition mandate, but I'd like that further expanded to include a consideration of extremity. For example, many conditions have a scale --- you can be diabetic, but taking really good care of yourself and have no actual risk. (A situation I am in currently...) As of now, I am just treated as a 'diabetic' with no consideration of my particulars. My blood sugar is probably more controlled than the average person and I should have similar insurance rates, etc. None of that is really considered and I'd like that to make it into legislation, etc. You can have conditions but be low to no risk because you're taking care of yourself.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I'm talking about the subset of his supporters who are average Joes/Janes with middle- or working-class jobs and are concerned about how they're going to pay their bills next month because,

Apparently many of these "average Joes/Janes" believed Trump when he said he was bringing back coal mining jobs.

Apparently many of these "average Joes/Janes" believed Trump when he said he was bringing back steel mills.

These people will vote for Trump again.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
For the first time in my life, yesterday I watched some political commentators. Namely, Ben Shapiro, Cenk Uygur, Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan. Ok maybe the last guy doesn't really count.

Maybe my experience in NA politics (or any politics at all) is rather limited, but it seems like the Republican - Democrat gulf is too wide to be described as "not listened to". There seems to be significant differences in the approach to the place of government in a society and the responsibilities of society to itself that really can't be crossed by the unity of a "not Trump" approach by anyone who care deeply about their respective ideologies.

But I'm literally like 24 hours into this, so maybe I'm wrong.
TV tends to be heavy on entertainment and light on critical analysis and relevant facts. Would you be up for some reading?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
But what did you mean by stating "getting back to what these United States is about"
Not legislating from the bench. Let that be from Congress and and the congressional bodies of each state.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think these problems are mostly local in scope... That's why I don't really address them in the context of the President. They're important, but the federal level of government doesn't really do much but write checks or regulate them on an interstate basis.
And this is the problem. They're treated as local problems, by local special interests, and with limited, local resources. We end up with a complex patchwork of hundreds of different and often competing systems, making it easy for the more unified corporate interests to run roughshod over the people.
Our government is bad at healthcare and everything was better when they largely weren't involved. (I still think you need a medicare/medicaid alternative for the under-employed/old.)
Yes, government is bad at healthcare, but not because they couldn't easily be good at, but because it's hobbled by special interests making billions off the chaos and the inability of small government to reign them in.
When government wasn't involved things were not better.
I just think that states have a lot of unique problems in this regard and they gotta deal with the problem closer to home for responsiveness.... I mean California and South Dakota for example have such a different set of needs it's hard to put them in the same box and come up with something workable.
Local, unique problems may be handled locally, but universal or national problems; problems of The Commons, are best handled collectively, by a disinterested, not for profit actor.
If we'd allowed states to handle problems locally we'd have no national parks, massive pollution, no standard, 8 hour day; no universal suffrage, no Social Security or Medicare, &c, &c.
Education needs to be gutted -- it's too costly, and too much is being taught that doesn't lead to an income. Again, most of this is under state level control. We like to pretend that it's one educational system, but really the 50 states have 50 different ideas of schooling.
It's worse than that, Within each state, even each district, education varies. Schools in poor neighborhoods get poor education, in middle class neighborhoods they get middle class education. Schools in Louisiana get education inferior to that in Massachusetts. This is what happens when schools are funded not by Big Government, but by local property taxes.
What other country does this? Collective affairs are best handled collectively, not locally.

Too costly? Education is an investment, and it yields interest. We can't afford not to educate.
I'm particularly against the removal of hands-on elective classes like shop, home economics, and things of that nature. (Which has been all the trend in recent years...) Education needs to give you basic life skills, and I think it's failing on that and replacing most of the useful things with fluff.
There's more to education than practical life-skills.

Basic education establishes a foundation of general knowledge upon which specialized skills might be built. It should include civics and cultural literacy, as well as the rudiments of important subjects like economics, mathematics, ecology, history, psychology, &c; skills a competent member of a larger society and, presumably, a voter, should have.

Higher
education focuses on producing intellectuals and polymaths. It's 1ry purpose is to increase happiness and appreciation of the world.

Then there's trade school, to teach the "practical," non-fluff skills, like plumbing, medicine, cooking, law, auto mechanics and engineering.
College is largely useless at this point unless you're in a medical, legal field, or a trade (where they actually give you a sort of apprenticeship). The focus of education has moved into a bunch of useless and impractical concerns and none of it leaves you without anything but a fat bill.
It gives you social competence, political competence and happiness, my Philistine friend. It makes you a competent social and political actor. It shows you the big picture, not just an isolated puzzle piece.
Many of my friends have children that have spent on college and are not working in the field of their major. We need to change that. The costs have gone up mostly because the government gives the schools unlimited funny money via the loan program. Schools used to be so much cheaper, and teach you way more.
What is this "funny money" the government loans? Why should any student need a loan? This is a new thing.
Corporate interests discovered there was money in education and, being good capitalists, they capitalized on it.
You used to be able to work your way through many colleges with a Summer job, and most state colleges began as free institutions, for in-state students. Neoliberalism changed all that. It made a virtue of avarice.
Housing is complex, but I'd say it was largely better with no government involvement. I'm old enough to remember when the govt wasn't giving out all the funny money and Section 8 and so on, and the prices were WAY lower. (like half or less, lol.) This artificial stimuli has done nothing but drive up prices and make the path of ownership even more difficult. This is another situation where the govt has largely hurt that rather than helped it. (like schools) The market for housing needs to be more natural and then it would sort of resolve itself.
I remember when there weren't homeless encampments everywhere, and beggars at every traffic stop. This is the result of lack of government involvement, not a result of it. It was when government began withdrawing from social programs, and avarice became a virtue, that housing prices started going up.
So, I guess in these areas I am highly conservative, but it's because I've been alive long enough to know days when education, housing, and healthcare were a lot cheaper. The only real gain on the healthcare front from a government perspective is the pre-existing condition mandate, but I'd like that further expanded to include a consideration of extremity. For example, many conditions have a scale --- you can be diabetic, but taking really good care of yourself and have no actual risk. (A situation I am in currently...) As of now, I am just treated as a 'diabetic' with no consideration of my particulars. My blood sugar is probably more controlled than the average person and I should have similar insurance rates, etc. None of that is really considered and I'd like that to make it into legislation, etc. You can have conditions but be low to no risk because you're taking care of yourself.
Yes, you used to be able to buy cheap insurance, but it was also bad insurance, full of uncovered situations, restrictions, loopholes and caps, plus medical care and pharmaceuticals used to be cheaper as well. As a diabetic I assume you're quite familiar with this. But, again, this is the result of lack of government regulation, not because of it. Other developed countries, with bigger, more interventionist government, don't have these problems.
Watch the videos from posts 82 and 85 from the "Is it true Trump Supporters just want a father figure?" thread (sorry, I don't know how to link :oops:).
This is an American problem caused by too little government, not too much.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This is an American problem caused by too little government, not too much.

Yes and no, I'd concede that there is too little government but I have a different measure. I think the effectiveness is too little for what you pay for, and based on that metric I think we should have less. Unless someone finds some way to miracle up a performance increase for what we pay for it doesn't necessarily justify more expenditures. At best, it justifies a tightening of the belt before we consider an expansion.

The only way to increase the size of the government is debt, and that's usually a tough sell. We're in America and for the most part just want to keep our money in our own wallet and fix our own problems if we are able to do so. We have layers upon layers of government which are often countermanding each other and hence a lot of the problems. The federal says 'this', state goes 'nah', county goes 'yeah!', and town goes 'yeah!" And meanwhile, they all sit there arguing and nothing gets done.
 

Tambourine

Well-Known Member
Most Americans here seem perfectly okay to pay for those elements of government they personally approve of.
So I often find the term "small government" to be a misnomer. Usually, it's "government only for things I approve of".
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
Most Americans here seem perfectly okay to pay for those elements of government they personally approve of.
So I often find the term "small government" to be a misnomer. Usually, it's "government only for things I approve of".
"Small government" is a ruse used by capitalists.
"Small government" to capitalists = less regulations
When republicans use the term, they aren't thinking about the American people. Only corporations and their profit margins.
Has nothing to do with the size of government and everything to do with rolling back profit-hurting regulations that protect the American people.
 

Tambourine

Well-Known Member
"Small government" is a ruse used by capitalists.
"Small government" to capitalists = less regulations
When republicans use the term, they aren't thinking about the American people. Only corporations and their profit margins.
Has nothing to do with the size of government and everything to do with rolling back profit-hurting regulations that protect the American people.
As far as I can tell, even capitalists don't actually dislike regulations in principle, only those that potentially lessen their profits. So for example, capitalists who benefit from appropriating artistic or intellectual property tend to be strong supporters of an expansion of copyright and intellectual property regulations, new tech companies tend to be in favor of net neutrality regulations etc.

Supporting hardcore market libertarianism seems to be a specific niche among capitalists, and I suspect that it would not benefit all capitalists to the same degree.
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
As far as I can tell, even capitalists don't actually dislike regulations in principle, only those that potentially lessen their profits. So for example, capitalists who benefit from appropriating artistic or intellectual property tend to be strong supporters of an expansion of copyright and intellectual property regulations, new tech companies tend to be in favor of net neutrality regulations etc.

Supporting hardcore market libertarianism seems to be a specific niche among capitalists, and I suspect that it would not benefit all capitalists to the same degree.
The #1 problem behind it all is Greed. There's plenty of capitalists that do good with their money and attempt to contribute to society. Then there's late-stage Capitalism, where the company is so big everything turns to reducing costs. Greed is the only difference.
Take corporations in the MIC, so big they've completely infiltrated our government. And are robbing us blind with 'government contracts.' The treasury has been getting raided for decades.
18 year war in Afghanistan so far? Constant supply of $$ for corporations involved. Greedy capitalists destroying the middle class in the process. They don't care.
 
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