It's a stretch to assume that Christ, at the Last Supper, in the context of a Jewish liturgy, instituted the sacraments for a future 'church'.
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What are your thoughts about the Catholic Church?
- Thread starter Spiderman
- Start date
It's a stretch to assume that Christ, at the Last Supper, in the context of a Jewish liturgy, instituted the sacraments for a future 'church'.
It is its own country, the Vatican is an independent State, the reason it is seated at the UN.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
What he has repeatedly stated, and not just in the quote I posted, that even though the ideal is to belong to the CC, "Jesus' sacrifice" allows those even outside of the faith, including no faith (atheists), may well be "saved". What I posted was by no means the only time he has talked about this.
Now, where there is a conflict is that the Catechism does teach that if a person has knowledge of the role and teachings of the CC, but reject that "calling", then indeed they may not be "saved". And yet recent statements by the Pope have not pushed that teaching, instead pushing the concept I posted above.
So, why the conflicting messages? Based on what I have read (two books and many articles), I have very strong doubts that he believes in the Catechism on this issue, and yet he has to tread very carefully so as to not state that it's categorically wrong.
His statements have really upset many of the more conservative bishops, and not only in just this area. However, PF's response is to appoint new bishops who tend to agree with his more liberal approach, and this is likely to have a far-reaching effect for the church that also is fed by the fact that he has a very high approval rating from Catholics as a whole.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Generally speaking, you will find "pagan" beliefs in probably most, if not all, religious institutions because they tend to have copied elements from other faiths and secular traditions over the decades and centuries. And I would assume that you will find much the same within the Baha'i faith,
BTW, sorry for getting angry and posting too many over-the-top sarcastic words. I'll try and moderate myself much more carefully in any future discussions.
It isn't actually. The Holy See has a seat at the UN... though the Red Cross also has a seat at the UN, so that's not saying much.
There are two semi-distinct entities: the Holy See and Vatican City. The Catholic Church's position, effectively, has been that although neither of these entities would qualify for statehood on its own, they should be considered a state when taken together.
However,
- the Holy See doesn't have sovereignty or control over its territory. Most of the Holy See (a.k.a. the archidiocese of Rome) is in Italy.
- Vatican City, the entity that does have quasi-sovereignty over its territory, doesn't enter into relations with other states. Only the Holy See does that.
- neither one has a permanent population.
Neither the Holy See nor Vatican City meet any reasonable definition of statehood.
No, that's not what I said.
Maybe she cried because she realized that her tithes were helping to pay for Church lawyers trying to stop victims of abuse from getting compensation.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
HAHA No. Then I would have cried to, lol.
Im comparing what youre saying to an actual organization. What you said "is like..." what other way can you define an organization.
The Church doesnt force me to tithe. Though in a job we have to pay taxes or risk being arrested if we dont more than couple of times. The Church management has no paid membership. All sacraments are free. No minimum charge. No interest. Judt come right in.
Oh, by the way when you wear our organization shirt we just branded you part of a sex scandle. Dont worry, management got it handled. Just continue to take communion and pay your dues regularlly.
Its silly.
Youre confusing The Church with an organization. Catholicism is a religion. It involves a mass of people dedicated in faith. The church "covering things up" are
Going against their own teachings.
Scandles are not in their CCC and not in scripture. You are defining a catholics relationship with christ by blaming the church/body/people.
People do things in the name of their religion.
Believe me, you wont see "promoting child molestation" in scripture and in the catechism of the catholic church.
That is why she cried. It affects individual people. Organization members depending on their level may not "feel" the effects of organizational crisis. In a religion, people feel it right away.
Like a married couple knowing the other is hurt even though their not near each other.
A big part of the problems you are having with Penguin and Shun is that the RCC teaches differently from you.
The Church not only bills itself as an organization, but as The Organization. The True Church founded by Jesus Himself, the official spokes-organization for Almighty God on earth. Entrusted with the keys to Heaven and such.
Not all Catholics buy this, of course. But is there. And it has been used and misused for centuries.
Tom
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
You're talking about politics and organization. The Church all Catholics I know (and the Legion of Mary who just recently visit me on their yearly check on Catholic) is that The Church is built on the body of Christ.
I told them above, that's like saying:
The way you're saying is like I can make an investment in the Church and earn interest off my Mass attendances. If there is a grievance, I can file a complaint. Don't worry about management, we trust they will define us as consumers since we paid for our membership in the organization.
It's impersonal to compare The Church with an organization, though. If I were not a Catholic, I'd probably buy into it because of all the things you mentioned. After experiencing it, regardless of how the Church conducts it's business, I don't define the Church as an organization but the body of Christ with whom it's individual members come to Mass and celebrate the Eucharist. How it gets its money I don't know. But I also don't like the bias and negativity around the Church.
Like I said, it makes a lot older Catholics cry because of how people see the Church today. I mean, if that woman I talked about came on RF and saw what half you guys thought about her Church, she'd probably have a heart attack.
I'm just not that heartless to consider a religion a person's devotion, someone's spirituality, to an organization. Baptist Churches are "organizations" by you guys definition. JW the same as every other Church, temple, and Mosque.
For some reason the negativity and publicity people have of The Church (as well as it's horrible history) just sours the eyes of converts and peopel who actually see the Church beyond investing in gold.
It's a personal "investment."
You and I and most other Catholics understand this.
Do you understand why Shun and Penguin don't?
The fact that Pope Francis is taking on this issue, but with carefully measured steps, is my favorite thing about him.
Tom
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Yeah. It saddens me that some don't understand it. I try not to get blue in the face but if a Jew can understand it @metis I can see some hope at least. Right?
leibowde84
Veteran Member
Why do you think that the young gravitate toward tradition. It seems, from my experience, that the opposite is true, but I'm interested to hear why you believe that.
Of course there's hope.
Metis is a culturally Christian dude married to a Catholic. Not really normal.
I have more hope in Pope Francis though. One of my least favorite things about Benedict was his stated goal of returning the Church to traditional teachings, even if that meant it shrunk in size and influence. Now he's gone and I suspect that is partially due to that attitude.
Tom
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Yeah. I heard my priest talking about that in one of the Masses. A lot of Catholics aren't really liking Francis too much because of something he said about the GLBTQ community. I heard that a lot in where I live. I haven't been keeping up with it, though. If it weren't for the god and jesus/god thing, I'd probably still be in the Church. But can't reconcile core beliefs with my own definitions. Shrugs
This is why no modern pope can rule by fiat the way medieval popes did. There's around a billion Catholics, keeping them onboard(if not on the same page), when they are a dizzying array of ages and cultures and education levels and needs, is a gargantuan task.
Then there are the anti-Catholics who cannot be ignored. Especially the legalistic ones like @shunyadragon . They are not even Catholics, but in the modern world they can talk all they want.
Tom
The Catholic Church is both a religion (or more accurately, a religious denomination) and an organization.
Could be. I never claimed that the Catholic Church isn't hypocritical.
The Catholic Church has most definitely has its share of scandals.
I haven't said anything at all about a Catholic's relationship with anything.
Yes: for instance, the Christian Brothers at the Mount Cashel orphanage beat children in the name of their religion. The religious orders who ran the Magdalene Laundries enslaved women in the name of their religion.
... but yet it happens.
If I found out that a church I belonged to had hurt people the way the Catholic Church has hurt people, I might cry, too.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
You are wrong about why she cried. Dont change my words. You may not agree but I live with and work for the residents here and when an elder whose known only christ in the church hears her Church (christ body) compared to molestation
To her, that is like saying christ aproves molestation of little boys.
That, and please reread my post. All churches, temples, and mosque is an "religious organization" for business purposes. You are literally comparing the body of christ to how the church makes its money.
You are saying christ is a scandal.
I dont know if you understand but thats my poing.
I can't help it if people like you misunderstand what I've said clearly.
No, I'm not.
No, I'm not.
It seems to me that your point is to jump to absurd conclusions in order to deflect legitimate criticism. "Criticising the Church means criticizing every single Catholic and Jesus"? Give me a break.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Not to excuse the scandals in any way, we do have to remember that the RCC, because if its size and scope, attracts more attention for when things go right or when they do something wrong.
In my fundamentalist Protestant church that I grew up in (or at least tried to), there were scandals, let me tell ya (one of the reasons why I left that church/denomination), but it certainly didn't get any significant publicity. Matter of fact, there's only one scandal that I remember hitting the local papers/t.v. news, and I'm pretty sure it didn't make any national news.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
No. You dont have a personal connection with The Church. Its like saying my family is hiding child abuse and I tell you that I love my family because I was born and raised into it. The you say that doesnt excuse their behavior as if their behavior from your point of view is more valid than mine.
We are speaking from differing points of view. I do not see the Church coldly. MY words. If its not posted here, I dont have any internal meaning behind it.
That assumption aside, I wasnt talking to you about the Church. The Church was compared to paganism in the OP not politics. I highly dislike comparison with both
But if you read my post, I did say the church manages money just as any other religious organization (if you like).
I also said I dont like negative connotations and bias towards The Church.
Whatever else you are reading into his either I did not post it or you didnt ask if that is what I meant.