What came before the Big Bang?

[godnotgod]

This is all rubbish.

Now you are saying the universe has consciousness.

No. I'm saying that the universe IS consciousness itself, and that YOU are IT. You ARE the universe itself looking at itself through your eyes. You are NOT separate from the universe in any sense of the word. There is no separate observer of the universe called the 'self'.

Let's return to the rope/snake metaphor: the illusory 'snake', representing the universe, is none other than the rope itself, which is a metaphor for the Absolute, or Consciousness, that is projecting the 'snake'. IOW:

"The universe is the Absolute as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation"

You seemed to have a different definition for consciousness.

Define consciousness.

Then explain how this "higher" consciousness than other consciousness?

How is my consciousness of self-awareness, of seeing, hearing, feeling are nothing more than illusion, but this supposed high consciousness can perceive this so-called "true" reality?

To me, you are just playing word-game, where everything that I perceived to be real, but you are saying it is illusion, so when I say up, you say down, then when I say left you'd say right, I see green, but you would say red, etc. It is just never ending of opposites.

I already provided an example portraying the difference in that of the Second level of consciousness, Sleep with Dreams, and awakening onto the Third Level, Waking Sleep, both of which is pretty common to all of us. This is a rough approximation to compare ordinary consciousness with Higher Consciousness. Essentially, Higher Consciousness is a powerful transformative experience in which what one thought was the case, is not actually the case, just as when one awakens from dream-sleep, it is clearly seen that what one previously believed to be real, was but a dream.

And second, when you make a positive claim of what you believe or think especially of the divine or supernatural, then you should have to provide evidences to support such claim, otherwise your claim is nothing more than wishful thinking.

It is neither belief nor wishful thinking, but seeing what the true nature of things are. I have explained many times that conventional proofs cannot be executed with this kind of awareness, as it is beyond the rational mind. I thought that was clear to you.

And claiming of universe being conscious and self-aware, then you would have to show that what you say to be true and it is just more than your belief.

Belief and knowing are 2 different things. It is best when knowing and believing go hand-in-hand, but so far all your posts only state what you believe in.

Belief requires rational thought. I am not employing rational thought to formulate a belief. I am utilizing insight, without thought to point out something I am aware of, including the conventional state of mind, as I already know how that functions.

How is it that you know you are conscious, and yet deny it to the universe, which sustains you 100% inside and out, and from which you emerged, are now fully a part of, and to which you shall return?

In addition, no one yet has explained how the non-material that is consciousness can develop from the material world. THAT, along with the old paradigm of a solid material world, is what the rubbish is.

 

[godnotgod]

Guys. I am dead. I am done. Deadbeat. Down. My head has been rent asunder by this consciousness-not-conscioussness-illusiory-space-time thingy!

Good! Doubt and confusion are the first step toward Enlightenment.

"Little doubt, small enlightenment;
Great doubt, Great Enlightenment"

"At the bottom of great doubt lies great awakening. If you doubt fully, you will awaken fully"
Hakuin

 

[godnotgod]

I get that its nonsensical kind of topic to begin with but I was referring specifically to how the back and forth you've been having for the past few pages has mostly been fruitless because it has devolved into a situation where you are arguing from a point that is not only unsuported by evidence but by your own personal claim, impossible to support by evidence.

I'm not saying your wrong or that your position isn't valid. I'm simply saying that I don' think its possible to debate the position other than simply rehashing the same sentences over and over.

I am used to this. You see, the conditioned mind is extremely entrenched. It's not going to give up easily. As you can see for yourself, some here are almost up in arms. The old paradigms must be turned against themselves, but in doing so, there is anger and outrage and accusation. The thinking mind wants to desperately cling to its old, safe ideas, because, for one, that's where the authority is, and also the feeling of belonging to the 'right' side of the argument. When it is realized there is no 'right' side, that what went before was only a pacifier for the conceptual mind, then there is a bit of panic, because no one knows what to think; what evidence to look for. It is new/old ground which brings us right back to square one, which is "I don't know". That is when conceptual thought stops and seeing begins.

Otherwise, what would you have us do with the topic at hand? How do you suggest we proceed with a premise that is already erroneous, as even you admit?

All I can do is to continue to point, in spite of the fact that those who look, (and they DO see it) continue to not only deny what they see, but to recoil back to the old paradigm. And so, I point again and again. Once in awhile, someone gets it.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Scientists say...at the beginning, there was a bang...a big bang!
Theologians say...at the beginning, there was God saying...let there be light!

There really is no difference in practice.

THAT what existed before the big bang/creation is THAT which continues to exist after the big bang/creation, IT is not subject to creation, nor evolution, nor was it ever born. If this were not so, then there would never be any refuge from being ground over forever in the process of creation, birth, and evolution, and that would imply a form of Hell. And there is no Hell, the end of suffering comes from realizing THAT which is beyond creation, time, and space.

 

[Ouroboros]

Scientists say...at the beginning, there was a bang...a big bang!

Actually they don't.

 

[godnotgod]

Scientists say...at the beginning, there was a bang...a big bang!
Theologians say...at the beginning, there was God saying...let there be light!

There really is no difference in practice.

Except that theologians assign a Banger to the BB, whereas scientists say there is no evidence of such an agent; that it occurred solely due to the interactions of various inanimate, unconscious energies and materials.

Here we return to the age old conflict between the eternalists and the materialists, which the Buddha saw as extreme views, causing him to formulate his Middle Path philosophy.

THAT what existed before the big bang/creation is THAT which continues to exist after the big bang/creation, IT is not subject to creation, nor evolution, nor was it ever born. If this were not so, then there would never be any refuge from being ground over forever in the process of creation, birth, and evolution, and that would imply a form of Hell. And there is no Hell, the end of suffering comes from realizing THAT which is beyond creation, time, and space.

It is the one True Reality the realization of which sets you free.

Plotinus distinguishes three cognitive stages. (1) In sensory experience we are provided with images which, however, are not always or universally reliable. (2) Reason, the theoretical part of the individual soul, then works on the images so as to transcend sensory experience and facilitate the practice of science and philosophy. The soul then passes beyond this to become united with nous* before finally enjoying a mystical and ecstatic union with the One, in which it loses all consciousness of itself. This is what Plotinus calls "the flight of the alone to the Alone".

*nous: God Consciousness

http://www.philosophos.com/philosophical_connections/profile_029.html

 

[godnotgod]

Alan Wallace, ex-Buddhist monk and Professor of Physics, brings down the barrier between consciousness and the material world:

[youtube]0Yx75ppXO60[/youtube]
B. Alan Wallace Ph.D on mind & science - Part1of2 - YouTube
[youtube]IWm2sGpmo5Q[/youtube]
B. Alan Wallace Ph.D on mind & science - Part2of2 - YouTube

 

[godnotgod]

A question had been raised as to whether the universe exists when conscious beings to perceive it do not. Alan Wallace elaborates:

[youtube]t-B_NMclG7Y[/youtube]
The Conscious Universe - B. Alan Wallace - Part 5 of 6 - YouTube

 

[Thana]

A question had been raised as to whether the universe exists when conscious beings to perceive it do not. Alan Wallace elaborates:

Isn't that pretty much the same as the saying

If a tree falls in a forest, And no one is around to hear it, Does it make a sound?

:sarcastic

 

[godnotgod]

It is the Age of Information and approaching the era of knowledge. I believe in the power of knowledge and think people have brains and should use them for a reason, not for whimsical thinking. If I wanted to listen to whimsical blabber I would go to church. The world doesn’t run on whim either. If it did it would be a giant mess. It didn’t work in the past, it won’t work in the present, nor will it work in the future.

But the world IS a giant mess! And that's because it DOES run on whim.

If anyone had to sit and listen to this type of stuff an entire generation would be doomed. This next level of awaken states is a bunch of malarkey. If the universe was conscious we would have walking plants, flying fish and talking rocks.

Better than that, we have blabbering, whimsical, walking, talking, and flying people! Not only that, but we have babies coming out of the universe which know the game of Peek-Boo without ever having been taught. This tells me that the universe is not only conscious, but intelligent and has a sense of humor, and is playing a game, a very sophisticated game that is beyond your rational mind, one in which its conscious intelligence is deliberately hiding from itself, Peek-A-Boo being a very basic version of Hide and Seek. In fact, the universe is so intelligent and clever, it is hiding right inside of you and you don't even know it, and it is doing it right under your very nose, while you continue looking all around for something called 'knowledge' and 'truth', when you don't even understand who or what you are.

 

[godnotgod]

Isn't that pretty much the same as the saying

If a tree falls in a forest, And no one is around to hear it, Does it make a sound?

:sarcastic

I think so, except that in this case, there is not even a forest or a tree.

Did you watch the video?

 

[godnotgod]

Science tells us the world is an illusion:

[youtube]OtDmz0nNWoA[/youtube]
Perception of reality - illusion of 5 senses - YouTube

 

[idav]

Science tells us the world is an illusion:

[youtube]OtDmz0nNWoA[/youtube]
Perception of reality - illusion of 5 senses - YouTube

If I were a magician and projected an image of a person, this would be an illusion, but the mirage really does exist. Saying reality is illusive or deceptive is fine but still based on something real.

 

[godnotgod]

If I were a magician and projected an image of a person, this would be an illusion, but the mirage really does exist. Saying reality is illusive or deceptive is fine but still based on something real.

What we call reality is the illusion.

What projects it is Reality.


ben d gave an explanation:

THAT what existed before the big bang/creation is THAT which continues to exist after the big bang/creation, IT is not subject to creation, nor evolution, nor was it ever born. If this were not so, then there would never be any refuge from being ground over forever in the process of creation, birth, and evolution, and that would imply a form of Hell. And there is no Hell, the end of suffering comes from realizing THAT which is beyond creation, time, and space.

 

[Meow Mix]

I've lost track of the thread, but judging from what I've skimmed over, I don't think I'm going to try to catch up.

 

[Slapstick]

I've lost track of the thread, but judging from what I've skimmed over, I don't think I'm going to try to catch up.

Yeah its not worth it. I wish I would have thrown my hat in a long time ago.

 

[godnotgod]

I've lost track of the thread, but judging from what I've skimmed over, I don't think I'm going to try to catch up.

I would like you to at least watch the two short videos I last posted on mind and science, so you can get an idea of what I've been talking about.

 

[godnotgod]

For the moment, let's assume that the materialists are correct; that the BB is the beginning of a real material world we call 'reality'.

Can any of you explain the source for the original 'real' material from which the BB was derived, and then, can you explain how non-material consciousness emerges from this same material world? These two are the 'hard' questions.

The theists have already spoken: God is a magician who just created the world and conscious beings out of sheer nothing.

 

[Slapstick]

For the moment, let's assume that the materialists are correct; that the BB is the beginning of a real material world we call 'reality'.

Can any of you explain the source for the original 'real' material from which the BB was derived, and then, can you explain how non-material consciousness emerges from this same material world? These two are the 'hard' questions.

The theists have already spoken: God is a magician who just created the world and conscious beings out of sheer nothing.

You have been watching to many youtube videos. Pity the person that watches to much youtube. :bounce

 

[godnotgod]

You have been watching to many youtube videos. Pity the person that watches to much youtube. :bounce

That's irrelevant.

Can you answer one or both of the questions I asked, or not?