What came before the Big Bang?

[godnotgod]

Awakening to truth is another way of saying having knowledge.

It is the process of knowing, of realizing, but knowledge comes via accumulating data and information, its storage and retrieval. That is knowledge, not awakening. Awakening is to realize that the previous certainty about reality has been overturned via new light being shed, such as when one wakes from a dream only to realize that what one thought only moments ago is illusory.

The mind is what is concieving things as they are.

That is saying that there is an agent of conceiving, when, in fact, there is no such agent; there is only conceiving itself. You are, as we speak, actually creating, out of whole cloth, a conceiver of the conceived. That's delusion. There is no river that flows; there is only flowing water. Reality does not need to be conceived; it only needs to be seen as it is.

I dont see why people think that we have a mind outside our bodies. When people meditate it is still their brain doing the work.

No. Meditation is not thinking. It is the process of simply observing thoughts arise and subside, without becoming attached to the thoughts themselves. The focus is not on the brain, but on the breath or the hara, usually, and particularly in Eastern thought, it is the hara that is considered to be the center of consciousness, not the brain. Kundalini is when the energy dormant in the base of the spine travels upwards along the spinal chord and illumines the cranium, as the act of Enlightenment. The brain doesn't create consciousness; consciousness unleashes the full potential of the brain. Via meditation, the erratic activity of the thinking mind is quieted down so that the intuititve seeing mind can then come into play. This quieting of the mind is likened sometimes to allowing the mud to settle to the bottom of the pond, thereby allowing a clear view.

 

[godnotgod]

Yes I know the difference between reality and a description of reality. Reality is a concept like ultimate truth, never fully actualized.

Concepts come about via the mind. You just stated you know the difference between reality and a description of reality, and then you call reality a concept, which is a description, or model, or reality. One can never actualize reality as long as one is creating concepts about it which are mistaken for reality. Again, there is nothing to figure out.

That doesnt mean reality is consciousness. Reality would exist without needing it described by fallible humans and it doesnt need to be conscious to exist.

Fallibility has to do with Reason. When Reason is transcended and there are no more fallible concepts being created by the rational mind, then Reality can be actualized, but it can only be actualized via of realization, and that requires consciousness.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

I still don't know why people think we only have five senses to perceive the world....

 

[idav]

I still don't know why people think we only have five senses to perceive the world....

Internal sensory but some claim our inner senses can sense things outside our body without any interaction. Or like gognotgod claims that with meditation we can sense things outside time and space.

 

[gnostic]

Internal sensory but some claim our inner senses can sense things outside our body without any interaction. Or like gognotgod claims that with meditation we can sense things outside time and space.

Or he could be on acid trip. :rainbow1:

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Internal sensory but some claim our inner senses can sense things outside our body without any interaction. Or like gognotgod claims that with meditation we can sense things outside time and space.

Well I mean when we say sense of touch, there's way more to it then that. It's not one sense working together but a myriad of other senses, same with our sense of sight, or taste.

We have a sense of balance, we have a sense of knowing where our limbs are in relation to our bodies and a myriad of other ones as well...I'm just saying, to think that we only perceive the world through sight, touch, hearing, smell, and taste is just not accurate.

 

[idav]

Well I mean when we say sense of touch, there's way more to it then that. It's not one sense working together but a myriad of other senses, same with our sense of sight, or taste.

We have a sense of balance, we have a sense of knowing where our limbs are in relation to our bodies and a myriad of other ones as well...I'm just saying, to think that we only perceive the world through sight, touch, hearing, smell, and taste is just not accurate.

Yes I understand. My objection isn't about having more than five senses. My objection is to the source of what is being sensed. There would be some sort of physical interaction in order to sense anything. Other words the brain did it, not some cosmic universal spirit.

 

[godnotgod]

Yes I understand. My objection isn't about having more than five senses. My objection is to the source of what is being sensed. There would be some sort of physical interaction in order to sense anything. Other words the brain did it, not some cosmic universal spirit.

The brain receives the signals, but the signals are interpreted via consciousness, which you claim the brain is responsible for. Returning to Square One, how does non-material consciousness emerge from the material brain?

 

[godnotgod]

Or like gognotgod claims that with meditation we can sense things outside time and space.

Since you claim the brain is the source of all sensing and consciousness, are you then saying the brain, which resides in space and time, can sense things outside space and time? How so?

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Since you claim the brain is the source of all sensing and consciousness, are you then saying the brain, which resides in space and time, can sense things outside space and time? How so?

What exactly do you mean is outside of space and time? How can something be outside space and time??

 

[godnotgod]

What exactly do you mean is outside of space and time? How can something be outside space and time??

Can consciousness be contained in any space or vessel?

Can it be assigned to past, present, or future, or measured by time?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Can consciousness be contained in any space or vessel?

The skull.

 

[godnotgod]

The skull.

Brains are contained in skulls.

 

[ruffen]

Can consciousness be contained in any space or vessel?

Can it be assigned to past, present, or future, or measured by time?

Yes. If you've ever undergone surgery under general anesthetic, at that time your consciousness wasn't there. In fact it wasn't anywhere.

Your consciousness is a direct result of your physical brain. Damage or destroy it, or put it in "pause mode" with chemicals, and your consciousness (and everything that comes with it) disappears.

Alcohol, hallucinogens, antidepressants, antipsychotica, anesthetics etc. (which are all chemicals that interact with the brain in different ways) can alter the way you perceive the world and your consciousness. Some dull your consciousness down, some remove it completely for a while, some just alter it ("consciousness expanding drugs such as LSD"), and some can remove it for good (ie. cause death).

Furthermore, brain tumors, alzheimer's disease, creutzfeldt-jakob disease ("cow madness"), bleeding and stroke inside the brain, physical trauma and injury etc., and even sleep will impact the performance of your brain and therefore your consciousness.

And after death there is no evidence of consciousness, any more than before conception.

Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that consciousness is directly dependent on physical brain function. So your consciousness is indeed contained within your skull.

 

[godnotgod]

Yes. If you've ever undergone surgery under general anesthetic, at that time your consciousness wasn't there. In fact it wasn't anywhere.

Your consciousness is a direct result of your physical brain. Damage or destroy it, or put it in "pause mode" with chemicals, and your consciousness (and everything that comes with it) disappears.

Alcohol, hallucinogens, antidepressants, antipsychotica, anesthetics etc. (which are all chemicals that interact with the brain in different ways) can alter the way you perceive the world and your consciousness. Some dull your consciousness down, some remove it completely for a while, some just alter it ("consciousness expanding drugs such as LSD"), and some can remove it for good (ie. cause death).

Furthermore, brain tumors, alzheimer's disease, creutzfeldt-jakob disease ("cow madness"), bleeding and stroke inside the brain, physical trauma and injury etc., and even sleep will impact the performance of your brain and therefore your consciousness.

And after death there is no evidence of consciousness, any more than before conception.

Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that consciousness is directly dependent on physical brain function. So your consciousness is indeed contained within your skull.

Are they?

Are TV signals contained in and by the TV set?

 

[idav]

Since you claim the brain is the source of all sensing and consciousness, are you then saying the brain, which resides in space and time, can sense things outside space and time? How so?

No I don't think something atemporal can interact with something temporal. But I'm not the one who thinks consciousness is atemporal. Consciousness is temporal and comes only from the brain. Space and time are part of the material universe as is anything you want to define as spirit or consciousness.

 

[idav]

Are they?

Are TV signals contained in and by the TV set?

We don't have any evidence to suggest we can interpret signals like a radio but even a radio signal counts as a material connection. There isnt really much to a frequency and is dependent on the material it comes from. How does a sound wave exist for example, some "substance" creates a vibration that can then be interpreted. Sound is dependent on something existing first.

 

[godnotgod]

We don't have any evidence to suggest we can interpret signals like a radio but even a radio signal counts as a material connection. There isnt really much to a frequency and is dependent on the material it comes from. How does a sound wave exist for example, some "substance" creates a vibration that can then be interpreted. Sound is dependent on something existing first.

Yeah! It's called SILENCE. When sound begins and ceases, there is the default state of total silence. Silence is non-local.

Brain activity occurs against the default state of non-local consciousness.

We only think consciousness is local (ie 'my consciousness') because of the self-created mind we call "I" or the self.

I am using TV signals as a metaphor for non-local consciousness. They are present before the TV set is turned on and after it is turned off.

 

[godnotgod]

No I don't think something atemporal can interact with something temporal.

However, there is only one way you can determine the temporal nature of something, and that is by comparing it to the eternal. Therefore, they are intimately associated with one another. But I was not making this comparison. I was asking how the material brain, which resides in space and time, can create that which is outside of space and time, namely, consciousness.

But I'm not the one who thinks consciousness is atemporal. Consciousness is temporal and comes only from the brain. Space and time are part of the material universe as is anything you want to define as spirit or consciousness.

Well, we are now back to my original question: how does the material brain create non-material consciousness? I don't understand why you are making the statement about (1) the brain creating consciousness, and (2) that it is temporal.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

However, there is only one way you can determine the temporal nature of something, and that is by comparing it to the eternal. Therefore, they are intimately associated with one another. But I was not making this comparison. I was asking how the material brain, which resides in space and time, can create that which is outside of space and time, namely, consciousness.




Well, we are now back to my original question: how does the material brain create non-material consciousness? I don't understand why you are making the statement about (1) the brain creating consciousness, and (2) that it is temporal.

Matter produces energy, energy as far as I know is immaterial, yet matter is material...so how does something that is material produce something that is immaterial.