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What came before the Big Bang?

Leftimies

Dwelling in the Principle
INcarnation......would be a life into flesh.
REincarnation...would be a return to life in the flesh.

I believe the transformation to be spiritual.
We become in spirit what we really are.

Some of us will take wing.....some of us will crawl away.

I always figured stream of reincarnation to be age old sequences of cause and effect, i.e causal inheritance. Causal inheritance in phenomena that transmigrates throughout all aspects of reality. Not really transmigration of identity or soul.

What do you think of this? If you disagree, why? I am interested to know.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I always figured stream of reincarnation to be age old sequences of cause and effect, i.e causal inheritance. Causal inheritance in phenomena that transmigrates throughout all aspects of reality. Not really transmigration of identity or soul.

What do you think of this? If you disagree, why? I am interested to know.

As you already know...I'm real big on cause and effect.

I haven't ruled out that we might return to the flesh over and over.
(reincarnation)

But I suspect the final outcome will be spiritual.
We may become as our Maker.

All we really need to do is demonstrate our self denial.

Without self denial any thought or feeling we have could prove harmful.
Impulse with the power of creation is destructive.

A peaceful spirit would be more trustworthy.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
A peaceful spirit would be more trustworthy.

How about having a peaceful spirit now, right here, right now? Heaven is within you. It's here. Only those who understand it can enter, in this world, at peace, with themselves. The rest will dream about a better tomorrow...
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
How about having a peaceful spirit now, right here, right now? Heaven is within you. It's here. Only those who understand it can enter, in this world, at peace, with themselves. The rest will dream about a better tomorrow...

I am looking forward to an increase.
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
Hi Folks,

This thread has 1,500 posts. Can anyone summarize the 3 or 4 key points ? Perhaps that will provide some focus.

In my view, almost nothing is known about what there was before the BB.

Perhaps we can say there are two likely scenarios:

1) There was 1 BB.

2) There were 2 or more BB, with collapsing universes in between.

Any thoughts?
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
I haven't ruled out that we might return to the flesh over and over.
(reincarnation)

But I suspect the final outcome will be spiritual.

Again, you are still in the world of duality, 'spirit' and 'flesh' being one and the same, and not in conflict one with the other.

You're still playing the game of Black VS White, having turned the game of Black AND White into White MUST win. But White cannot exist without Black, and vice-versa.

Everything we see in nature is CYCLICAL, which points to a cyclically-occurring, CAUSELESS universe as well, with no beginning or end. Underlying this never-ending cyclical manifestation of the worlds is the changeless Absolute. The Absolute has not BECOME the universe; it's simply manifesting AS the universe, just as a rope seen as a snake has not BECOME a snake, just as 'spirit' has not BECOME 'flesh'; just as water has not BECOME ice.


Apparitional Causation

"But what I have referred to as apparitional causation is a very different thing {than transformation causation]. When you mistake a rope for a snake, the rope is not transformed into a snake. It's just a mistake, and it's something you're doing now. So the question is not: "How did the Absolute become the Universe?" That can't be answered. The Absolute has not become the Universe. The question is, " Why do we see it that way? Why do we feel that we are bound? Why do we continue to make this mistake? Why are we unable to see through the apparition?"

The Equations of Maya

....and so:

'The universe is the Absolute as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation'
Vivikenanda
 
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`mud

Just old
Premium Member
hey Avi,
There was never any BB, or there was an almost infinite amount of them.
Time itself not existing, only distance, movement, and energy as being important.
Accept that the preist was wrong, then everything makes sense.
At what point in the cosmos, does everything look only blue in motion, to that point.
Or, what about red ? Maybe that can't happen, or can it ? Where's the center of this silly expansion ?
~
meds please
~
'mud
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
Hi Folks,

This thread has 1,500 posts. Can anyone summarize the 3 or 4 key points ? Perhaps that will provide some focus.

In my view, almost nothing is known about what there was before the BB.

Perhaps we can say there are two likely scenarios:

1) There was 1 BB.

2) There were 2 or more BB, with collapsing universes in between.

Any thoughts?

Last I heard, the expansion does indicate a central 'point'.
Science came along and dubbed it the 'singularity'.

What came before it...science cannot say.
If the singularity is truly singular no secondary point can be allowed.
In simultaneous instant infinity is present when a secondary is allowed.

I see no cause to say the event cannot be repeated.
Some believe in more than one universe.

I don't.

It would be a contradiction in terms....universe(one word)....
as compared to more than one word.
 

Gordian Knot

Being Deviant IS My Art.
Avi said "This thread has 1,500 posts. Can anyone summarize the 3 or 4 key points ? Perhaps that will provide some focus."

This thread has wandered just a bit hasn't it. I'm not at all sure anyone could figure out what the 3 or 4 key points are at this point.

As my good friend Inigo once said "You told me to go back to the beginning... so I have."

First Post:
1. Do you believe in the Big Bang?
2. Do you think it was a superior being who created the Big Bang?
3. Do you think the multiverse theory is a good explanation?
4. Was it something else?


My take:
1. It is not a matter of whether one believes in the Big Bang. It is more what one makes of the fact that a universal background radiation has been found to exist, well, everywhere. That fact strongly supports the concept that the Big Bang occurred.

2. There is no real answer to this question as the existence of a superior being is based upon nothing but one's personal opinion.

3. There is no real answer to this question either, as the existence of the multiverse is based on nothing but the math. It can no more be proven nor disproven than the existence of a supreme being.

4. Hate to be a Debbie Downer, but the reality is that thus far we have little evidence of what came before the BB. So we are back to personal opinions again.

These answers are with the assumption that facts have more weight than opinions. Not everyone is going to be good with that!
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
....the reality is that thus far we have little evidence of what came before the BB. So we are back to personal opinions again.

However, Sir Roger Penrose has advanced his 'conformal cyclic cosmology' model of a recurring universe based on left over background microwave radiation. Meissner's initial work appears to support it.

WHAT PENROSE POSITS:

The current model of the universe says that any temperature variations in the CMB* should be random (or Gaussian), but Penrose claims that he, and his partner Vahe Gurzadyan, who hails from the Yerevan Physics Institute in Armenia, have found more than 12 very clear concentric circles within the data, which was collected by NASA’s WMAP satellite over the course of a seven year period, where there are regions where the radiation have a much smaller temperature range. To him, these posits are spherical evidence of the gravitational waves, massive ripples in spacetime that are created through the collision of massive black holes, which took place during the previous aeon.
Of course, if his hypothesis, which has been dubbed ‘conformal cyclic cosmology,’ were validated, it would suggest that the current state of our universe is merely one of perhaps an infinite number of aeons, which also mean there is no need for a precursor for the big bang. “I claim that this aeon is one of a succession of such things, where the remote future of the previous aeons somehow becomes the Big Bang of our aeon.” Penrose said.


*Cosmic Microwave Background

Sir Roger Penrose: An Alternate Theory of the Big Bang?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM47acQ7pEQ

(The idea of a cyclic universe is in conformance with Hindu and Buddhist cosmology as well)
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
Avi said "This thread has 1,500 posts. Can anyone summarize the 3 or 4 key points ? Perhaps that will provide some focus."

This thread has wandered just a bit hasn't it. I'm not at all sure anyone could figure out what the 3 or 4 key points are at this point.

As my good friend Inigo once said "You told me to go back to the beginning... so I have."

First Post:
1. Do you believe in the Big Bang?
2. Do you think it was a superior being who created the Big Bang?
3. Do you think the multiverse theory is a good explanation?
4. Was it something else?


My take:
1. It is not a matter of whether one believes in the Big Bang. It is more what one makes of the fact that a universal background radiation has been found to exist, well, everywhere. That fact strongly supports the concept that the Big Bang occurred.

2. There is no real answer to this question as the existence of a superior being is based upon nothing but one's personal opinion.

3. There is no real answer to this question either, as the existence of the multiverse is based on nothing but the math. It can no more be proven nor disproven than the existence of a supreme being.

4. Hate to be a Debbie Downer, but the reality is that thus far we have little evidence of what came before the BB. So we are back to personal opinions again.

These answers are with the assumption that facts have more weight than opinions. Not everyone is going to be good with that!

Well...let's not ask Debbie....

I for one think spirit came first.
Substance as creation.

God did it.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
I for one think spirit came first.
Substance as creation.

God did it.*

The moment you say 'first', you automatically imply 'not-first, making God relative and dual, rather than absolute. There is no 'first' or 'last', because time did not exist prior to the BB. In fact, it does not now exist; there was no 'prior'.. It's only a concept. You have stated many times that time does not exist, so where is 'first'?

You just arbitrarily inject a god as deux ex machina** into the discussion as a convenient means of 'solving' the question, but in reality, solves nothing. In fact, it creates more problems than it solves. IOW, 'we can't answer the question so that means there must be an all-powerful creative agent we call 'God' who is responsible for the inexplicable.'


No cigar.

*"God of the gaps" is a bit of theological reasoning which invokes divine intervention as a way to understand natural phenomena that science is presently unable to explain; since we don't know how x happens, it is assumed that Goddidit. Of course, scientists and most rationalists would argue that naturalistic explanations for still-mysterious phenomena are always possible.[1] God of the gaps is one way for intelligent and scientifically literate theists to deal with the cognitive dissonance of believing in a transcendent god.

** Deus ex machina (from Latin, meaning "god from the machine"; is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object. Depending on how it is done, it can be intended to move the story forward when the writer has "painted themself into a corner" and sees no other way out, to surprise the audience, to bring the tale to a happy ending, or as a comedic device.

Wikipedia
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
The moment you say 'first', you automatically imply 'not-first, making God relative and dual, rather than absolute. There is no 'first' or 'last', because time did not exist prior to the BB. In fact, it does not now exist; there was no 'prior'.. It's only a concept. You have stated many times that time does not exist, so where is 'first'?

You just arbitrarily inject a god as deux ex machina** into the discussion as a convenient means of 'solving' the question, but in reality, solves nothing. In fact, it creates more problems than it solves. IOW, 'we can't answer the question so that means there must be an all-powerful creative agent we call 'God' who is responsible for the inexplicable.'


No cigar.

*"God of the gaps" is a bit of theological reasoning which invokes divine intervention as a way to understand natural phenomena that science is presently unable to explain; since we don't know how x happens, it is assumed that Goddidit. Of course, scientists and most rationalists would argue that naturalistic explanations for still-mysterious phenomena are always possible.[1] God of the gaps is one way for intelligent and scientifically literate theists to deal with the cognitive dissonance of believing in a transcendent god.

** Deus ex machina (from Latin, meaning "god from the machine"; is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object. Depending on how it is done, it can be intended to move the story forward when the writer has "painted themself into a corner" and sees no other way out, to surprise the audience, to bring the tale to a happy ending, or as a comedic device.

Wikipedia

You cannot evade a linear existence.
God created it.
God might be able to evade a linear existence.....
He created it.

The rest of us are in it for the ride.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
You cannot evade a linear existence.
God created it.
God might be able to evade a linear existence.....
He created it.

The rest of us are in it for the ride.

No, YOU created God and linear existence out of whole cloth, and then proceeded to forget that you did so, so that your rational mind can have a nice, fluffy security blanket to suck on.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
No, YOU created God and linear existence out of whole cloth, and then proceeded to forget that you did so, so that your rational mind can have a nice, fluffy security blanket to suck on.

So now I AM the Creator?

Then be more respectful....and heed MY WORD!

sure you want to go there?
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
That could be a name for my God?

Who better to partake of comfort?

You suck on your blankee to relieve yourself of anxiety over your fate after death. But your anxiety exists because of your ignorance, and your ignorance is the cause of your terror of the grave and becoming dust. But that is your ego talking, because it wants to perpetuate itself so it can continue in its imaginary 'afterlife' to receive gratification and adulation from others, thereby enjoying the 'comfort' of security, power, and sensation.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
You suck on your blankee to relieve yourself of anxiety over your fate after death. But your anxiety exists because of your ignorance, and your ignorance is the cause of your terror of the grave and becoming dust. But that is your ego talking, because it wants to perpetuate itself so it can continue in its imaginary 'afterlife' to receive gratification and adulation from others, thereby enjoying the 'comfort' of security, power, and sensation.

No actually.....heaven could be a bit more than we suspect.
We have discipline in this life.
How much greater a discipline that we walk among angels?

(you do realize, I use your postings as springboards for my own?)
 
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