• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What came before the Big Bang?

godnotgod

Thou art That
No actually.....heaven could be a bit more than we suspect.
We have discipline in this life.
How much greater a discipline that we walk among angels?

(you do realize, I use your postings as springboards for my own?)

NO! Really? I had no idea!

The problem is that we get caught up in the discipline; in the technique. It is like going from one shore to another, but getting caught up in the structure of the boat and forgetting to get out upon arrival on the other shore. The idea of discipline is to prepare for something, in this case, your new life in 'heaven'. But you want to bring the training wheels with you. You're still clinging, when you should be letting go.

Belief clings;
Faith lets go.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
NO! Really? I had no idea!

The problem is that we get caught up in the discipline; in the technique. It is like going from one shore to another, but getting caught up in the structure of the boat and forgetting to get out upon arrival on the other shore. The idea of discipline is to prepare for something, in this case, your new life in 'heaven'. But you want to bring the training wheels with you. You're still clinging, when you should be letting go.

Belief clings;
Faith lets go.

That's backwards.
I shall never let go....and therefore carry on.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
That's backwards.
I shall never let go....and therefore carry on.

Oh, you won't carry on, but only sink to the bottom, as what you cling to will prove to be a dead weight.

What are you holding onto, Thief?


Reminds me of something some anal-retentive type once said:

'"I'll give you my gun when you take it from my cold, dead hands"

The only thing you cling to is your blankee.
 
Last edited:

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
Walking with angels....sitting in thrones, like gods of some sort,
where are the paths amongst the castles and homes and the doors into which we must pass to enter the rooms within those homes.
Interesting concept. I'm packing a suitcase with the clothes that I will bring in case I get snuffed by mistake,
now...what shoes do I pack, why, sandals of course.
silliness I'm sure !
~
I do think the spirit that dwells within each and everyone of us will go forward into eternity, in some form.
But......without any cognisant awareness. And castles and such.....more silliness.
~
Enough with that nonsense, in a few more years, I'm 75 now maybe even tommorow, I will see. I'll bet a Pascal penny on that one !
~
'mud
 
Last edited by a moderator:

godnotgod

Thou art That
Walking with angels....sitting in thrones, like gods of some sort,
where are the paths amongst the castles and homes and the doors into which we must pass to enter the rooms within those homes.
Interesting concept. I'm packing a suitcase with the clothes that I will bring in case I get snuffed by mistake,
now...what shoes do I pack, why, sandals of course.
silliness I'm sure !
~
I do think the spirit that dwells within each and everyone of us will go forward into eternity, in some form.
But......without any cognisant awareness. And castles and such.....more silliness.
~
Enough with that nonsense, in a few more years, I'm 75 now maybe even tomorrow, I will see. I'll bet a Pascal penny on that one !
~
'mud

The journey is within. Just come as you are.

If you want to know more about the interior rooms, try this book:


The Master Game, by Robert de Ropp, here:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Master-Game-Beyond-Experience/dp/B0007I0F3C

Apparently been revised and is now titled: The Master Game, Pathways to Higher Consciousness.

The Master Game: Pathways to Higher Consciousness (Consciousness Classics): Robert S. de Ropp, Iven Lourie: 9780895561503: Amazon.com: Books

You can download a free copy in .pdf format here:

http://selfdefinition.org/gurdjieff/Robert-S-De-Ropp--The-Master-Game.pdf
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
hey GNG,
I'm really not interested in reading any more books about anything that's about any afterlife or gods or angels or any of that crap.
When I go.......I'm done......and gone....deal with your memories...good or bad.
Basically.....deal with it or not....I won't care at that point.
~
Aside from that point or two.....I really like your style.
~
'mud
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Oh, you won't carry on, but only sink to the bottom, as what you cling to will prove to be a dead weight.

What are you holding onto, Thief?


Reminds me of something some anal-retentive type once said:

'"I'll give you my gun when you take it from my cold, dead hands"

The only thing you cling to is your blankee.

If this is what YOU believe as true.....it is true for YOU.
YOU will sink to the bottom.

You can have my faith, if you can rip it from my spirit.

oh...that's right.....you won't be there.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
hey GNG,
I'm really not interested in reading any more books about anything that's about any afterlife or gods or angels or any of that crap.
When I go.......I'm done......and gone....deal with your memories...good or bad.
Basically.....deal with it or not....I won't care at that point.
~
Aside from that point or two.....I really like your style.
~
'mud

Thanks, but the book I referenced you to is not about gods and angels, but about the inner life. It's not a question about when you're gone, but about one's being here now.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
If this is what YOU believe as true.....it is true for YOU.
YOU will sink to the bottom.

You can have my faith, if you can rip it from my spirit.

oh...that's right.....you won't be there.

If you really do have faith, it means you have trust. If you have trust, there is nothing to cling to. Trust means a letting go; a complete surrender to what is. You let go because you have faith. You're not clinging to faith, but to belief in what might be, because you don't have faith in what is.

It's not about what you or I believe, but about what is. If you have faith in what is, what is there to cling to?
 
Last edited:

Thief

Rogue Theologian
If you really do have faith, it means you have trust. If you have trust, there is nothing to cling to. Trust means a letting go; a complete surrender to what is. You let go because you have faith. You're not clinging to faith, but to belief in what might be, because you don't have faith in what is.

It's not about what you or I believe, but about what is. If you have faith in what is, what is there to cling to?

I think therefore I AM.
Can't let go.
Non-existent items have not faith or trust.

Still wanting to NOT exist?
You can do that.

Let go.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
I think therefore I AM.
Can't let go.
Non-existent items have not faith or trust.

Still wanting to NOT exist?
You can do that.

Let go.

You still seem to be confused between existence and being, while also confusing Jesus's statement with that of Descartes.

'I Am' is a reference to Being, which is not limited to Time and Space, as Jesus is clearly comparing himself to the historical Abraham. It points to the eternal Present.

Descartes is attempting to validate existence via an agent of thought, namely 'I'. His assertion presupposes the existence of 'I', as criticized by Kierkegaard:


Søren Kierkegaard's critique

The Danish philosopher Søren Kierkegaard provided a critical response to the cogito.[16] Kierkegaard argues that the cogito already presupposes the existence of "I", and therefore concluding with existence is logically trivial. Kierkegaard's argument can be made clearer if one extracts the premise "I think" into two further premises:
"x" thinks
I am that "x"
Therefore I think
Therefore I am
Where "x" is used as a placeholder in order to disambiguate the "I" from the thinking thing.[17]
Here, the cogito has already assumed the "I"'s existence as that which thinks. For Kierkegaard, Descartes is merely "developing the content of a concept", namely that the "I", which already exists, thinks.[18]
Kierkegaard argues that the value of the cogito is not its logical argument, but its psychological appeal: a thought must have something that exists to think the thought. It is psychologically difficult to think "I do not exist". But as Kierkegaard argues, the proper logical flow of argument is that existence is already assumed or presupposed in order for thinking to occur, not that existence is concluded from that thinking.[19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum#cite_note-26
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum


So where is this 'I" which thinks? There is no such agent of thought; there is only thinking itself. 'I' is what has been referred to over and over as an illusion. So if there is no 'I' which thinks, where then is the 'I' which cannot let go? The illusory 'I' is holding onto itself, which doesn't exist! But as stated earlier, it clings to itself as a means of self-perpetuation for the purpose of self-gratification. Essentially, 'I' is the ego.

'I' believes, and therefore clings out of fear and insecurity.

Being, on the other hand, is pure consciousness, without thought, without an agent of thought. It sees what is, and because it does, there is faith.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
You still seem to be confused between existence and being, while also confusing Jesus's statement with that of Descartes.

'I Am' is a reference to Being, which is not limited to Time and Space, as Jesus is clearly comparing himself to the historical Abraham. It points to the eternal Present.

Descartes is attempting to validate existence via an agent of thought, namely 'I'. His assertion presupposes the existence of 'I', as criticized by Kierkegaard:


Søren Kierkegaard's critique

The Danish philosopher Søren Kierkegaard provided a critical response to the cogito.[16] Kierkegaard argues that the cogito already presupposes the existence of "I", and therefore concluding with existence is logically trivial. Kierkegaard's argument can be made clearer if one extracts the premise "I think" into two further premises:
"x" thinks
I am that "x"
Therefore I think
Therefore I am
Where "x" is used as a placeholder in order to disambiguate the "I" from the thinking thing.[17]
Here, the cogito has already assumed the "I"'s existence as that which thinks. For Kierkegaard, Descartes is merely "developing the content of a concept", namely that the "I", which already exists, thinks.[18]
Kierkegaard argues that the value of the cogito is not its logical argument, but its psychological appeal: a thought must have something that exists to think the thought. It is psychologically difficult to think "I do not exist". But as Kierkegaard argues, the proper logical flow of argument is that existence is already assumed or presupposed in order for thinking to occur, not that existence is concluded from that thinking.[19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum#cite_note-26
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum


So where is this 'I" which thinks? There is no such agent of thought; there is only thinking itself. 'I' is what has been referred to over and over as an illusion. So if there is no 'I' which thinks, where then is the 'I' which cannot let go? The illusory 'I' is holding onto itself, which doesn't exist! But as stated earlier, it clings to itself as a means of self-perpetuation for the purpose of self-gratification. Essentially, 'I' is the ego.

'I' believes, and therefore clings out of fear and insecurity.

Being, on the other hand, is pure consciousness, without thought, without an agent of thought. It sees what is, and because it does, there is faith.

You were doing well to quote the other guy.
Spoiled it when 'you' thought 'you' could add to it.

Where is this item called 'I'?

"I AM" right here.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
You were doing well to quote the other guy.
Spoiled it when 'you' thought 'you' could add to it.

Where is this item called 'I'?

"I AM" right here.

Is that so? Well, then, please tell me it's location.

If you agree with Kierkegaard, then what's your problem?
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
'I' don't have a problem with 'being' me.

'You' are the one making denial.

You implied you agreed with Kierkegaard, who argues AGAINST 'I think, therefore I am'. So if you agree with Keirkegaard, what is your problem?

I did not ask if you had a problem with being yourself, but with saying you agree with the 'other guy' while insisting on 'I think therefore I am'.

Or don't you understand the question?
 
Last edited:

Thief

Rogue Theologian
You implied you agreed with Kierkegaard, who argues AGAINST 'I think, therefore I am'. So if you agree with Keirkegaard, what is your problem?

I did not ask if you had a problem with being yourself, but with saying you agree with the 'other guy' while insisting on 'I think therefore I am'.

Or don't you understand the question?

The 'other' guy was at least making a point.
'You' on the 'other hand'.....chase around in circles.....
All the while declaring it's all an illusion.

Picture yourself doing so around a water fountain in the center of a small town.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
The 'other' guy was at least making a point.
'You' on the 'other hand'.....chase around in circles.....
All the while declaring it's all an illusion.

...which is essentially the point Kiekegaard was making, which is to say that 'I' is only assumed to exist. This is to say that "I" is self-created. Being self-created, it is an illusion.

Here is his argument once again:


Søren Kierkegaard's critique

The Danish philosopher Søren Kierkegaard provided a critical response to the cogito.[16] Kierkegaard argues that the cogito already presupposes the existence of "I", and therefore concluding with existence is logically trivial. Kierkegaard's argument can be made clearer if one extracts the premise "I think" into two further premises:
"x" thinks
I am that "x"
Therefore I think
Therefore I am
Where "x" is used as a placeholder in order to disambiguate the "I" from the thinking thing.[17]
Here, the cogito has already assumed the "I"'s existence as that which thinks. For Kierkegaard, Descartes is merely "developing the content of a concept", namely that the "I", which already exists, thinks.[18]
Kierkegaard argues that the value of the cogito is not its logical argument, but its psychological appeal: a thought must have something that exists to think the thought. It is psychologically difficult to think "I do not exist". But as Kierkegaard argues, the proper logical flow of argument is that existence is already assumed or presupposed in order for thinking to occur, not that existence is concluded from that thinking.[19]

IOW, all there actually is in reality, is thinking itself, via observation. There is no thinker of thoughts, nor observer of the observed. We just assume there is.

So can you answer the question: where is this 'I' that thinks; that fears the grave; that stands up from the dust; that goes on into an afterlife? All of that, including the 'I', is just the product of the imagination, without an 'imagin-er'.
 
Last edited:

Thief

Rogue Theologian
...which is essentially the point Kiekegaard was making, which is to say that 'I' is only assumed to exist. This is to say that "I" is self-created. Being self-created, it is an illusion.

Here is his argument once again:


Søren Kierkegaard's critique

The Danish philosopher Søren Kierkegaard provided a critical response to the cogito.[16] Kierkegaard argues that the cogito already presupposes the existence of "I", and therefore concluding with existence is logically trivial. Kierkegaard's argument can be made clearer if one extracts the premise "I think" into two further premises:
"x" thinks
I am that "x"
Therefore I think
Therefore I am
Where "x" is used as a placeholder in order to disambiguate the "I" from the thinking thing.[17]
Here, the cogito has already assumed the "I"'s existence as that which thinks. For Kierkegaard, Descartes is merely "developing the content of a concept", namely that the "I", which already exists, thinks.[18]
Kierkegaard argues that the value of the cogito is not its logical argument, but its psychological appeal: a thought must have something that exists to think the thought. It is psychologically difficult to think "I do not exist". But as Kierkegaard argues, the proper logical flow of argument is that existence is already assumed or presupposed in order for thinking to occur, not that existence is concluded from that thinking.[19]

IOW, all there actually is in reality, is thinking itself, via observation. There is no thinker of thoughts, nor observer of the observed. We just assume there is.

So can you answer the question: where is this 'I' that thinks; that fears the grave; that stands up from the dust; that goes on into an afterlife? All of that, including the 'I', is just the product of the imagination, without an 'imagin-er'.

I ....did not create myself.
I.....am not my own handiwork.

'No thinker of thoughts' is a ridiculous statement.
 
Top