Actually, it is the separated pair that instantly knows of the state of the other. How physicists are explaining this from within the paradigm of 'travel of information at speeds lesser than speed of light'?
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What came before the Big Bang?
- Thread starter yoda89
- Start date
Actually, it is the separated pair that instantly knows of the state of the other. How physicists are explaining this from within the paradigm of 'travel of information at speeds lesser than speed of light'?
godnotgod
Thou art That
Yes, that is what they did. The EEG data from both brains were synched in time, so that for every EEG event for brain A, an identical EEG event was recorded for brain B. However, I would not say that the two brains are themselves synchronistically identical, but the consciousness behind them is singular and non-local, so the responses are identical and synched.
A poor analogy is the relationship of the ocean to the waves on its surface. Each wave is unique, in that no other wave is exactly alike, but all are made of the same substance as the ocean from which they all emerge: water.
godnotgod
Thou art That
In meditation. information is processed without thought, by seeing, not thinking.
During sleep, the brain processes vital information regarding heart rate, breathing, etc., without having to 'think' about it.
But underlying thought is consciousness, without which thought cannot occur.
In the experiment being discussed, brain B processes information without thought, the response being instantaneous. The subject had no knowledge that his brain was responding as it did.
So what do you think actually occurred?
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godnotgod
Thou art That
a footnote:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]'Physicist RAYMOND Y. CHIAO is widely known for pioneering experiments in the twilight zone of quantum mechanics where objects can pass through solid walls. His recent work involves investigations of faster-than-light phenomena. He has measured how long photons take to tunnel through a barrier that ought to be impenetrable and found that they appear to outpace the speed of light when they are successful in reaching the other side.[/FONT]'
Nonlocality
Can you show me evidence of it? I don't know, a link to the setup and procedure of the experiment.
I ask, because checking simultaneity and causal relationship between events is not trivial.
How far apart were A and B, for instance? Did they use synchronized atomic clocks to time events?
And, more importantly, have the results been repeated and confirmed by an independent team?
Ciao
- viole
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Thief
Rogue Theologian
Denied!!!!!
Here you tell people to set aside thought.
A few postings later you pick it up for your convenience.
We humans are not going to set thought aside.
Not this life.....not the next.
godnotgod
Thou art That
You are commenting on something you know nothing about.
The experiment itself deliberately set thought aside, focusing only on the brain's ability to respond.
godnotgod
Thou art That
I will see what I can find for you, but for now, the speaker in the video states that both subjects were isolated in Faraday cages, were placed at opposite ends of the campus, and that the EEG data was synched. As I recall, the experiment has been successfully repeated at least twice, maybe three other times. No atomic clocks, as far as I know, however.
Did you watch the video?
Of course I watched the video. And this is why I got skeptical (I always get skeptical when people say things like "staggering consequences...").
First of all, using Faraday cages prevents electromagnetic transmission, which runs at the speed of light, by definition. You do not need that sort of protections if you want to prove that the transmission has been simultaneous.
Second, there is no independent confirming experiment I am aware of. The only thing I found is an independent experiment that does not confirm the results:
http://www.bial.com/fotos/gca/1081784515bolsa5198.pdf
Third, I wonder where the guy that performed the experiment is. I did not see him in Stockholm collecting his Nobel prize.
Fourth: the only people discussing this on the web are ESP crackpots and conspiracy theorists
So, I am left with two alternatives:
1) the experimenter is one of the biggest geniuses in the history of science, who managed to destroy the foundations of quantum mechanics and relativity
2) He is is a charlatan, trying to make a buck by selling nonsense to a gullible audience that is easily impressed by pontifications about physics it does not understand
I let the reader decide which one of the two alternatives is more plausible
Ciao
- viole
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godnotgod
Thou art That
As time allows, I will see if I can find you the references I mentioned.
If you look up Amit Goswami, who is a bona fide physicist, he gives credence to this experiment himself. So someone who DOES understand physics is saying the experiment is valid.
I could not get your link to work.
Update: Here is one reference to the original experiment:
Grinberg-Zylberbaum, J., Delaflor, M., Attie, L., and Goswami, A. (1993)
"The Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen Paradox in the Brain: the Transferred Potential."
*Physics Essays,* to be published.
More:
Grinberg-Zylberbaum, G., 1982. Psychophysiological correlates of communication,
gravitation and unity. Psychoenergetics. 4, 227-256.
Grinberg-Zylberbaum, G. & Ramos, J. (1987). Patterns of interhemispheric correlation
during human communication. Int. J. Neuroscience.
36, 41-53.
Grinberg-Zylberbaum,G., Delaflor, M., Attie, L. & Goswami, A., 1994. The Einstein-
Podolsky-Rosen paradox in the brain: The transferred potential. Physics Essays.
7, 422-428
http://arxiv.org/pdf/q-bio/0510039.pdf
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godnotgod
Thou art That
Here is a partial list:
Subsequent studies conducted by other researchers seemed to validate Grinberg’s original findings. Physicist Fred H. Thaheld, for instance, used Faraday cages to shield two separate compartments from electromagnetic energies. One person was hooked up to an EEG in one chamber, and another person was likewise attached to an EEG in the other chamber. The compartments were isolated from one another, making impossible any means of communication. Yet when one subject was presented with stimulating visual patterns, there was a statistically significant response rate in which the other subject’s EEG showed a corresponding and simultaneous response.
Charles Tart of UC Davis conducted a similar experiment, but instead of using an EEG and visual stimulation, he monitored galvanic skin resistance (GSR), blood volume and heart rate in response to small electric shocks. Two people were asked to meet one another and agree to remaining “connected” after going their separate ways. When isolated in different rooms, Tart administered small electric shocks to the “sender.” Even though the receiver was totally unaware of any response at all, Tart’s data revealed that this receiver’s GSR, blood volume and heart rate all indeed reacted to each of the “sender’s” shocks.
Intention
Transpersonal psychologists and researchers Marilyn Schlitz and William Braud supplied even more evidence for the theory of a non-local, connecting Field in a study that seemed to confirm the influence of distant intentionality. Subjects were attached to computer measuring skin resistance. An “influencer” would be placed in a separate room and asked to influence the receiver to either calm down or become agitated during 30 ten-second intervals, randomly picked.
During these randomly chosen intervals, the influencer would enter the desired state and project it toward the receiver, who could not be seen or communicated with in any way. Various controls were set in place for each of fifteen studies, with a total of 323 sessions and 271 subjects. Even though the receivers had no idea when the influencers were focusing on them, their skin response showed a direct correlation with the influencers’ intentions fifty-seven percent of the time.
Jean Achterberg, Ph.D. had eleven experienced healers send healing intentions, at randomly chosen and uneven intervals, to completely isolated receivers whose brains were monitored using MRI scans. Even though these receivers were entirely unaware of when these distant intentions were being sent, nine out of eleven of them had MRI scans showing distinct and perfectly timed responses to these intentions.
Long-Distance Brainwave Entrainment
Italian researcher Dr. Nitamo Montecucco demonstrated long-distance brainwave entrainment between two groups of meditators. Two groups of meditators, one in Tuscany and the other in Milan, meditated with the intention of “connecting” with each other. The resulting brainwave analysis showed a statistically significant brainwave synchronization between the two groups.
Dream Influence
Over a period of five years, Stanley Krippner and associates conducted 62 experiments in which sleeping “receivers” apparently had dreams directly shaped by “influencers” in a separate room. Before going to sleep, the receiver would meet the influencer, and both of them would discuss the intention to connect while the sleeper was dreaming. After the receiver went to sleep, the influencer would randomly choose one of several envelopes, which contained different images, and enter a separate in room to sit quietly, open the envelope and focus on the image.
Because the sleeper’s brain activity and eye movements were monitored, researchers could tell when the receiver was experiencing REM sleep, the period in which dreaming takes place. As soon as the REM sleep ended, the receiver would be awakened and asked about the dream. Results from five years of study revealed that a statistically significant amount of the receivers had dreams correlated with images sent by the influencers.
http://www.profoundmeditationprogram.com/connecting-matrix
Bunyip
pro scapegoat
And of course the fact remains that thought is not information, and so the experiment does not indicate that thought could be from outside of the brain as you imagine. In fact it does not demonstrate an information exchange either. At best it attempts to demonstrate that some form of non electro magnetic stimuli is being recieved by both brains in a manner that is contrary to the laws of physics.
Nothing much, it is a sham experiment that is being grotesquely misrepresented by you.
It does not show thought to be external to the brain at all, not in any way shape or form.
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Yes, this is all very fascinating. But it is not the evidence I am looking for. I am looking for evidence that this psychic information (detectable in terms of EEG beeps) is simultaneous or, at least, faster than light.
I don't see that is any of these experiments. The fact that they mention Faraday cages (which is useless against non-local transmission) is evidence that they do not believe that either.
Let's try to critically think about it.
The ESP community struggles to find convincing evidence for their claims and they are basically ridiculed by virtually the whole scientific community.
I wonder why they go through this hassle when it is very simple to perform an experiment that would prove them absolutely right. With the bonus of having the satisfaction of destroying modern physics' assumptions.
This is what they have to do:
1) Put A in a certain location and B at the antipodes of A after they have meditated together. The distance between them will be about 12,500 kilometers.
2) Light takes about 40 milliseconds to cross that distance. This time difference is very easy to detect using current technology.
3) Check the timing of the EEG pulses (that proves information transfer between A and B) and show that their time difference is much less than 40 milliseconds
This experiment is pretty easy to carry out and would show how to send information faster than light. I am sure that would boost their cause, if we remember the fuss that alleged faster-than-light neutrinos caused recently.
So, why don't they do it, in your opinion?
Ciao
- viole
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godnotgod
Thou art That
Because demonstrating a faster than light phenomena was not the intent in the first place. The intent was to see if the human brain was capable of signal-less reception from another brain.
The point of the Faraday cages was to insure that no electrical impulses were being transmitted.
Ultimately, I think what you're not getting is that communication between brains is not in time or space. Consciousness is not limited by time or space, and the premise here is that consciousness is non-local. IOW, consciousness is not created by the localized brain; the brain is immersed in a sea of pure consciousness. That is why the communication appears to be instantaneous. Actually, there is no signal travel across space or time.
These ideas suggest an association with a holographic scenario, if you know what I mean.
Well, it should be their intent if they go around pontificating about quantum entanglement of minds, non-locality, and stuff like that.
Considering how simple it is, it is puzzling (actually it is not) that they haven't try it.
Don't you think that they would objectively prove that consciousness is not-local? That it is not bound by time and space (sic) contrarily to the rest of matter and energy?
So, why this hesitation?
Ciao
- viole
godnotgod
Thou art That
While I appreciate your explanation re: the difference between thought and information, the fact is that thought cannot occur without information. The key here is consciousness, applied to information for processing. That is thought. And it is focused consciousness, via meditation, that causes the cessation of thought.
You keep wanting to put words in my mouth. The experiment never claimed to demonstrate a source of thought outside the brain. It set out to see if the brain was capable of signal-less transmission/reception, and that consciousness is non-local.
Otherwise, how do you explain isolated brain B's instantaneous and identical response?
So if consciousness is non-local, and consciousness is the key to thought, then we may be led to the idea that thought (the active part of information processing) comes from outside the brain.
As I tried to explain earlier, we have no trouble seeing this in a TV set, but where the human being is concerned, the added layer of an "I" complicates things, since "I" is seen as the localized active agent in all activity, and where "I" essentially equates with 'mind', a product of the brain. At least that is the current 'scientific' idea known as 'emergent theory', but as explained earlier, is nothing more than a hypothesis.
When we look at how the human being functions within his field or environment, we find that he is totally sustained by it 100%. There is nothing he can do without it. Why should consciousness/thought be any different?
godnotgod
Thou art That
The Grinberg-Zylberbaum experiment did demonstrate non-locality and signal-less transmission. The brains were not connected in any physical manner.
But ultimately, 'non-local' and 'local' are merely concepts. In reality, there is neither. Only the illusory 'I" maintains a distinction. The mystics have told us for centuries that we are nothing less than the universe itself, or, as the Hindus say: 'Tat tvam asi', ie; 'Thou art that'. Then there is Rumi:
'You are not just the drop in the ocean; you are the might ocean itself'
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godnotgod
Thou art That
[SIZE=+1]The connection between Holography and Non-Locality
University of London physicist David Bohm, for example, believes Aspect's findings imply that objective reality does not exist, that despite its apparent solidity the universe is at heart a phantasm, a gigantic and splendidly detailed hologram.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]To understand why Bohm makes this startling assertion, one must first understand a little about holograms. A hologram is a three- dimensional photograph made with the aid of a laser.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]To make a hologram, the object to be photographed is first bathed in the light of a laser beam. Then a second laser beam is bounced off the reflected light of the first and the resulting interference pattern (the area where the two laser beams commingle) is captured on film.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]When the film is developed, it looks like a meaningless swirl of light and dark lines. But as soon as the developed film is illuminated by another laser beam, a three-dimensional image of the original object appears.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]The three-dimensionality of such images is not the only remarkable characteristic of holograms. If a hologram of a rose is cut in half and then illuminated by a laser, each half will still be found to contain the entire image of the rose.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]Indeed, even if the halves are divided again, each snippet of film will always be found to contain a smaller but intact version of the original image. Unlike normal photographs, every part of a hologram contains all the information possessed by the whole.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]The "whole in every part" nature of a hologram provides us with an entirely new way of understanding organization and order. For most of its history, Western science has labored under the bias that the best way to understand a physical phenomenon, whether a frog or an atom, is to dissect it and study its respective parts.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]....
In a series of landmark experiments in the 1920s, brain scientist Karl Lashley found that no matter what portion of a rat's brain he removed he was unable to eradicate its memory of how to perform complex tasks it had learned prior to surgery. The only problem was that no one was able to come up with a mechanism that might explain this curious "whole in every part" nature of memory storage.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]Then in the 1960s Pribram encountered the concept of holography and realized he had found the explanation brain scientists had been looking for. Pribram believes memories are encoded not in neurons, or small groupings of neurons, but in patterns of nerve impulses that crisscross the entire brain in the same way that patterns of laser light interference crisscross the entire area of a piece of film containing a holographic image. In other words, Pribram believes the brain is itself a hologram.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]Pribram's theory also explains how the human brain can store so many memories in so little space. It has been estimated that the human brain has the capacity to memorize something on the order of 10 billion bits of information during the average human lifetime (or roughly the same amount of information contained in five sets of the Encyclopaedia Britannica).[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]Similarly, it has been discovered that in addition to their other capabilities, holograms possess an astounding capacity for information storage--simply by changing the angle at which the two lasers strike a piece of photographic film, it is possible to record many different images on the same surface. It has been demonstrated that one cubic centimeter of film can hold as many as 10 billion bits of information.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]Our uncanny ability to quickly retrieve whatever information we need from the enormous store of our memories becomes more understandable if the brain functions according to holographic principles. If a friend asks you to tell him what comes to mind when he says the word "zebra", you do not have to clumsily sort back through some gigantic and cerebral alphabetic file to arrive at an answer. Instead, associations like "striped", "horselike", and "animal native to Africa" all pop into your head instantly.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]Indeed, one of the most amazing things about the human thinking process is that every piece of information seems instantly cross- correlated with every other piece of information--another feature intrinsic to the hologram. Because every portion of a hologram is infinitely interconnected with ever other portion, it is perhaps nature's supreme example of a cross-correlated system.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]The storage of memory is not the only neurophysiological puzzle that becomes more tractable in light of Pribram's holographic model of the brain. Another is how the brain is able to translate the avalanche of frequencies it receives via the senses (light frequencies, sound frequencies, and so on) into the concrete world of our perceptions. Encoding and decoding frequencies is precisely what a hologram does best. Just as a hologram functions as a sort of lens, a translating device able to convert an apparently meaningless blur of frequencies into a coherent image, Pribram believes the brain also comprises a lens and uses holographic principles to mathematically convert the frequencies it receives through the senses into the inner world of our perceptions.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]An impressive body of evidence suggests that the brain uses holographic principles to perform its operations. Pribram's theory, in fact, has gained increasing support among neurophysiologists.
The Holographic Universe
[/SIZE]
University of London physicist David Bohm, for example, believes Aspect's findings imply that objective reality does not exist, that despite its apparent solidity the universe is at heart a phantasm, a gigantic and splendidly detailed hologram.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]To understand why Bohm makes this startling assertion, one must first understand a little about holograms. A hologram is a three- dimensional photograph made with the aid of a laser.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]To make a hologram, the object to be photographed is first bathed in the light of a laser beam. Then a second laser beam is bounced off the reflected light of the first and the resulting interference pattern (the area where the two laser beams commingle) is captured on film.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]When the film is developed, it looks like a meaningless swirl of light and dark lines. But as soon as the developed film is illuminated by another laser beam, a three-dimensional image of the original object appears.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]The three-dimensionality of such images is not the only remarkable characteristic of holograms. If a hologram of a rose is cut in half and then illuminated by a laser, each half will still be found to contain the entire image of the rose.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]Indeed, even if the halves are divided again, each snippet of film will always be found to contain a smaller but intact version of the original image. Unlike normal photographs, every part of a hologram contains all the information possessed by the whole.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]The "whole in every part" nature of a hologram provides us with an entirely new way of understanding organization and order. For most of its history, Western science has labored under the bias that the best way to understand a physical phenomenon, whether a frog or an atom, is to dissect it and study its respective parts.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]....
In a series of landmark experiments in the 1920s, brain scientist Karl Lashley found that no matter what portion of a rat's brain he removed he was unable to eradicate its memory of how to perform complex tasks it had learned prior to surgery. The only problem was that no one was able to come up with a mechanism that might explain this curious "whole in every part" nature of memory storage.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]Then in the 1960s Pribram encountered the concept of holography and realized he had found the explanation brain scientists had been looking for. Pribram believes memories are encoded not in neurons, or small groupings of neurons, but in patterns of nerve impulses that crisscross the entire brain in the same way that patterns of laser light interference crisscross the entire area of a piece of film containing a holographic image. In other words, Pribram believes the brain is itself a hologram.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]Pribram's theory also explains how the human brain can store so many memories in so little space. It has been estimated that the human brain has the capacity to memorize something on the order of 10 billion bits of information during the average human lifetime (or roughly the same amount of information contained in five sets of the Encyclopaedia Britannica).[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]Similarly, it has been discovered that in addition to their other capabilities, holograms possess an astounding capacity for information storage--simply by changing the angle at which the two lasers strike a piece of photographic film, it is possible to record many different images on the same surface. It has been demonstrated that one cubic centimeter of film can hold as many as 10 billion bits of information.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]Our uncanny ability to quickly retrieve whatever information we need from the enormous store of our memories becomes more understandable if the brain functions according to holographic principles. If a friend asks you to tell him what comes to mind when he says the word "zebra", you do not have to clumsily sort back through some gigantic and cerebral alphabetic file to arrive at an answer. Instead, associations like "striped", "horselike", and "animal native to Africa" all pop into your head instantly.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]Indeed, one of the most amazing things about the human thinking process is that every piece of information seems instantly cross- correlated with every other piece of information--another feature intrinsic to the hologram. Because every portion of a hologram is infinitely interconnected with ever other portion, it is perhaps nature's supreme example of a cross-correlated system.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]The storage of memory is not the only neurophysiological puzzle that becomes more tractable in light of Pribram's holographic model of the brain. Another is how the brain is able to translate the avalanche of frequencies it receives via the senses (light frequencies, sound frequencies, and so on) into the concrete world of our perceptions. Encoding and decoding frequencies is precisely what a hologram does best. Just as a hologram functions as a sort of lens, a translating device able to convert an apparently meaningless blur of frequencies into a coherent image, Pribram believes the brain also comprises a lens and uses holographic principles to mathematically convert the frequencies it receives through the senses into the inner world of our perceptions.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]An impressive body of evidence suggests that the brain uses holographic principles to perform its operations. Pribram's theory, in fact, has gained increasing support among neurophysiologists.
The Holographic Universe
[/SIZE]