What can happen when you believe nonsense...

[ajay0]

I have. I'm not convinced he was a Nihilist...

You still have a a lot ot learn.

Nihilism: any aim is lacking, any answer to the question "why" is lacking. What does nihilism mean?--that the supreme values devaluate themselves. ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

"Nihilism is…not only the belief that everything deserves to perish; but one actually puts one shoulder to the plough; one destroys." ~ Friedrich Nietzsche


The point I am making here is that half-baked philosophies will only result in erroneous thought process and corresponding actions. Western civilization is young, fickle and foolish and thus bound to make strategic errors which can even wipe itself out.

 

[We Never Know]

That means that the ancients had enough to survive and procreate. It is hard to see that it also means they were much wiser about everything under the sun (and in some "spirit world") than we are. That would be a complete fallacy.

And the truth of the matter is this:.

• There is less poverty in the world than ever before
• The percentage of people with an education (including higher education) is higher than ever before
• There are more literate people per capita than ever before
• Fewer children die during or shortly after birth than ever before
• More people live in the relative freedom of democracy than ever before
• There are fewer wars at any time around the world than ever before

It's hard to understand why so many of us think that the shepherds and farmers, priests and kings and philosophers of so long ago were so much wiser than we can hope to be.

I agree. Now let's revert and have to live as the ancients did, over half the population would die off.

 

[stvdv]

A chap in Arizona, Pablo Martinez, believed that his six-year-old son was possessed by a demon, because the boy exploded in a "fit of unnatural rage" at bath time. And so, of course, he poured scalding water down the boy's (presumably unwilling) throat, then held his head under water for 5-10 minutes. Well, naturally, the boy died -- presumably taking the "demon" with him.

I often wish the human species wasn't quite so prone to believing irrational things. It's not always a good thing...

Simple case. Father is full of hate, so has a short temper AND might have abused his son many years (10 min head under water tells it all), hence the boy got this anger in him; nothing to do with shower; unless father forced cold shower on him. I also screamed when my father did.

The demon in the boy was his own father

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Western civilization is young, fickle and foolish

How young do you think the west is? Stonhenge predates the Pyramids.

 

[sooda]

A chap in Arizona, Pablo Martinez, believed that his six-year-old son was possessed by a demon, because the boy exploded in a "fit of unnatural rage" at bath time.

And so, of course, he poured scalding water down the boy's (presumably unwilling) throat, then held his head under water for 5-10 minutes. Well, naturally, the boy died -- presumably taking the "demon" with him.

I often wish the human species wasn't quite so prone to believing irrational things. It's not always a good thing...

OMG.. how horrible. Poor little boy.

You know there are people even on this forum who believe in demons.

 

[PureX]

A chap in Arizona, Pablo Martinez, believed that his six-year-old son was possessed by a demon, because the boy exploded in a "fit of unnatural rage" at bath time. And so, of course, he poured scalding water down the boy's (presumably unwilling) throat, then held his head under water for 5-10 minutes. Well, naturally, the boy died -- presumably taking the "demon" with him.

I often wish the human species wasn't quite so prone to believing irrational things. It's not always a good thing...

I don't see how this even relates to religion.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

ut wouldn't be just a little bit better, if there's an available and practical treatment, to put that death off until a child has enjoyed life, lived to adulthood, and had children of their own?

Yup. And if they are doing that, it's a safe assumption that the overall parenting is setting the child up for a difficult and potentially troubled life of low expectations. The research into children raised under those extremist views is not flattering for them. Fundamentalist Christianity (or anything) is not good for the development of children. And we don't have a man displaying likely symptoms of a psychotic disorder "revealing" these things, we have empirical data that gets retested with an occasional new variable thrown at it to see how well an idea holds up.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Do all people who believe others who are possessed by a demon, behave towards them as he did? No they do not.

Not all [drunk driving/gun owners/tobacco smoking/drug abuse/crap diet/soldiers in war] die or cause death. So? Should we turn a blind eye to those even though there is a clear trend in harm to others? Should we not be concerned about televangelist exploiting people?
And keep in mind, dead children from parents who believe in superstitious nonsense is not an isolated or rare occurance.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No, we just expect others to do it for us.

Which means they must just not really want it that bad.

Nope. This is vegan propaganda that has zero factual basis.

What? Vegan? Me?
But, it is an actual fact that how we consume meat is unsustainable. We're fishing certain fish into extenction, factory farming is a major contribution to climate change, and it does involve. The death of sentient beings that so many of us just really don't require or need. Those are facts, there is no getting around them.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Still looking for a specific case of child dying as a result of medical neglect and parents not being prosecuted as a result of a religious exemption.

If we have a specific case we can discuss the details much better.

The specific details don't matter. They are dead because their parents believed in the adult tooth fairy, and because they believe in the adult boogeyman they were able to let their kids die of neglect and abuse and be shielded from legal consequences.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You still have a a lot ot learn.

If you're quoting Nietzsche like that you have a lot to learn. Or do you buy into the Nazi blonde haired beast?
Nietzsche rejected conventional norms, but he wasn't a fan of nihism. The "God is dead" bit, that's more of a call to action because Nietzsche did reject nihilism as far as having no meanings, values, or purpose.
Nietzsche & Values | Issue 29 | Philosophy Now
To consider Nietzsche a nihilist is to completely miss his deep passion for life, which is where Nietzsche shines as a brilliant, radiant star.

 

[Windwalker]

Not all [drunk driving/gun owners/tobacco smoking/drug abuse/crap diet/soldiers in war] die or cause death. So? Should we turn a blind eye to those even though there is a clear trend in harm to others?

This is a bad argument. Drunk driving is not a belief system.

If we are to ramp this up a little, things like demon possession were ways for a culture to talk about things they did not understand, like mental illness. in a pre-scientific age. They know something is off, it's just that instead of understanding it with a scientific view of chemical imbalances, pyschological traumaus, and the like, they called the same thing demonic, it is caused by "spirits" and the like.

Prescientific cultures functioned. Even if they were "wrong" about the cause, or rather their cause of "spirits" was replaced with a cause of "chemicals", they had a functional system that worked for them. And in all honestly, a lot of the symbolisms involved in "healing" people, are not that far off from the cures we employ today. You get far to hung up on a literal understanding of these things.

My point being, a functional system, does not compare with drunk driving. Nor does it lead to the things that this mentally ill individual did. If that was so, this would not be shocking news at all, to anyone. But it is. Which means, it is an aberration, not the norm.

Should we not be concerned about televangelist exploiting people?
And keep in mind, dead children from parents who believe in superstitious nonsense is not an isolated or rare occurance.

Of course if someone is breaking the law, yes we should be concerned. But your notion that superstitious beliefs are the cause of bad behaviors, is not supportable. If it were, it would not be news. It would be the norm.

BTW, there are lot of people who are harmed by the views of modernity, such as shoving pills into you rather than fixing the mental illness through psychological therapy. Yet, exorcism is considered primitive? We don't have the "truth" as much as we might like to think we do.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I don't see how this even relates to religion.

Where did I say religion in my OP? I said "irrational beliefs" and "demons."

 

[night912]

What? Vegan? Me?
But, it is an actual fact that how we consume meat is unsustainable. We're fishing certain fish into extenction, factory farming is a major contribution to climate change, and it does involve. The death of sentient beings that so many of us just really don't require or need. Those are facts, there is no getting around them.

That's a whole separate issue from religious animal sacrifice. But since it's been said, those aren't the "facts" of reality, instead, it's nothing but propagandas of a Lion King fantasy world where animals and humans live harmoniously singing ku bye ya.

Here are the facts. Human population is increasing and spreading through this planet. And the fact that majority of humans consume meat. So the lives of animals are and will die. But truth is, these "factory farms" is the reason why many different species of animals are still here and have not gone extinct. As of now, it's the best thing that has happened to the wild animal and plant population. It's actually the one thing that is saving the wildlife from humans.

Those who have ventured out into the wilderness and actually saw the reality of nature knows what I'm talking about. It's the true reality of nature where the cycle of predator and prey exist. And if not for "factory farms" providing a steady source of meat, animals and their natural habitat would have been invaded by us predators known as humans and reduced it down to many times smaller than what it is today. These are the real FACTS that shouldn't be ignore. One would think that someone who had studied Nietzsche would have seen this for some time realized that, presently, it is the true reality of our planet we live on.

 

[night912]

Where did I say religion in my OP? I said "irrational beliefs" and "demons."

It's a thing that you pointed this out. I liked how you drew out the irrational beliefs of people by giving an example of irrational beliefs. Noticed how some individuals, doesn't matter if they are for or against religion, jumped in right away with some of their own irrational beliefs? I applaud you for being able to do that here.

 

[PureX]

Where did I say religion in my OP? I said "irrational beliefs" and "demons."

Almost all the comments that followed assumed you were referring to religion, and I noticed that you didn't correct that assumption. People believe that Donald Trump is a much better president than Hillary Clinton would have been, and that is just as insane as believing in invisible demons. People believe that we can dump deadly poisons into our only survivable environment, indefinitely, with no consequence. This is far more irrational and dangerous to humanity than believing that medicine defies God's will or that vaccines cause disease. And yet the first and only example of insane belief that nearly all the people on this thread can conceive of, is religious superstition. Yet when properly understood, religion isn't insane or unreasonable. Nor is it a harmful practice for the vast majority of humans that engage in it, the vast majority of the time.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

It's hard to understand why so many of us think that the shepherds and farmers, priests and kings and philosophers of so long ago were so much wiser than we can hope to be.

Where is the modern wisdom that's going to lead us away from where we're heading. We need teleology of some kind. That's exactly what so much old wisdom was interested in: why we are here and what we should be doing. And for everything science figures out, 10 new mysteries arise. People like answers. And if you're going to be an evangelical humanist, you have to actually provide those

 

[night912]

Where is the modern wisdom that's going to lead us away from where we're heading. We need teleology of some kind. That's exactly what so much old wisdom was interested in: why we are here and what we should be doing. And for everything science figures out, 10 new mysteries arise. People like answers. And if you're going to be an evangelical humanist, you have to actually provide those

I have to disagree with that. I don't think a lot of the old wisdom was interested in all what you said. I would have say that old wisdom was interested in why we are here and why things/people do what they do. Only those who think that they are wise are interested in what we should be doing. When it comes to people, the unwise only like answers, and wise like questions.

Do you know why the wise like questions?
*hint* It is closely related to what you said about science.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Only those who think that they are wise are interested in what we should be doing.

The universe, the gods, nature, whatever there is out there, is will not respect us for not having a plan. Our existence here is not just some perpetual carefree picnic, that much should be obvious to you

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Where is the modern wisdom that's going to lead us away from where we're heading. We need teleology of some kind. That's exactly what so much old wisdom was interested in: why we are here and what we should be doing. And for everything science figures out, 10 new mysteries arise. People like answers. And if you're going to be an evangelical humanist, you have to actually provide those

Unfortunately, however, whatever teleological "answers" I might try to provide, each and every one of them would be a fiction.

The simple fact of the matter is this: there is no answer available to the question, "why are we here," when that "why" is intended to mean "for what purpose." The only purposes we can have for ourselves are the ones we set for ourselves. They are not delivered from "elsewhere."