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What can happen when you believe nonsense...

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Well, we have a "ghost" tour here in Orange, and Old Town San Diego also has one. A lot of people believe in ghosts, and they don't pay any social consequences for it.

...As far as believing Elvis is still alive, though..? Well, that's just crazy.

How can you call belief in ghosts a rational belief, but beliefs that elvis still lives and/or has been seen at walmart, are crazy?

It even seems to me that believing in ghosts would actually give you additional reasons to consider it plausible that people have seen someone that is presumed dead.
Because with that presupposition, claims of spotting Elvis don't necessarily imply the claim that Elvis still lives. It could also be that what the person saw as actually Elvis' ghost, right?

In any case, I don't understand in what kind of world the idea of someon presumed dead not actually being dead is "crazy" but the idea of ghosts isn't.

That just doesn't add up. That, in and of itself, already tells you that something is seriously wrong with the motivations / underlying reasons of the beliefs in question.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
They are killing a living entity just to selfishly appease their personal fantasy world view. It's hardly different from human sacrifice. The practice has got to go.
Showing that you know nothing about it. They're ritually butchering animals to prepare for a feast (you know, food,) in which their deities are invited to participate in.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
As cases such as this-beliefs that result victims and other people paying for the consequences, these nonsense beliefs have lost that right.
No. It is not these beliefs that lead to these actions. There are plenty who hold superstitious and scientifically unfounded beliefs that do not act in such murderous ways. Mental illness is not the same thing as prerational belief systems. Insanity and murder are not the result of a prescientific belief systems. To claim otherwise, is unsupportable. People who are rationalists, can also suffer from mental illnesses and do horrible things like this too. The commonality is mental illness, not belief systems.

Exorcisms and demonic possession doesn't fit into any worldview that is grounded in reality, because demons and demonic possessions don't exist.
They do not fit the reality that a modernistic, rationalist society sees. They do however fit the reality that a premodern, mythic and magic society sees. Everyone sees the world symbolically, and just because demons don't fit the symbolic language of a modern Western society, does not mean that they are not realities to those whose systems these are part of.

To them, your lack of demons indicates you are not grounded in reality, because reality to them includes them, just as their inclusion of demons makes them not grounded in reality to you because they don't exist in how you see reality. To those who believe demons are real, they become real. Reality is shaped by our beliefs about it, and becomes reflective of how we see and talk about it. whether that's a scientific reality or a mythic reality.

But exorcisms are known for sometimes being physically and mentally traumatizing, turning people into victims and corpses.
So can going under a modern surgeon's knife can do the same. So can any number of "cures" that people come up with, such as fad diets or any list of things we imagine will heal us of our woes. Think of all of it, from witch doctors to modern doctoring as a continuation of the same thing, fumbling and feeling our ways into the dark with ever growing systems of understanding. While modern science may be more successful in its "cures", the reality is its still quite primitive and superstition in its own right.

We pride ourselves a bit too much, when in a future time today will be seen just as quaint and primitive as the witch doctors of old.

Which is why, yeah, they do need to think more rationally because beliefe in superstitious entities and events just got another child killed.
No, it is not superstitious beliefs that got that child killed. Flatly no. It was a mental illness that did it.
 

MikeDwight

Well-Known Member
Just about everybody, including his closest cohorts, both publicly and privately, stated Hitler was religious. The only thing that's really debated is what religion he was, exactly.

No, that is what you associate with religion, and indeed not all religions do promote those things.
I know that they say young people, were closed out of their hangouts. Really, the only thing left open to socially communicate were the Churches. As for what they are even allowed to think, we can guess. Lets call a one-branch government what it is. Yo know I was interested, you know they typically liked a show-trial not just traitors, the polish they wanted their wealth, or jews, 100 defendants typically at a show-trial of no importance and berating judges.
 

night912

Well-Known Member
They are killing a living entity just to selfishly appease their personal fantasy world view. It's hardly different from human sacrifice. The practice has got to go.

We have to look at each case to see if the law was broken. If someone's actions due to religious reasons that resulted in breaking the law, they should be treated and judged accordingly. If someone's religious actions do not suit you and/or disagree with your views but haven't broken any laws, then they should be free to continue. There shouldn't be special treatment regardless of religious or nonreligious reasons.

What you said above shows how you are just like those religious people who thinks that other people of different religion shouldn't get the equal freedom as they do because they think that their beliefs and/values are above others. Don't be like those religious people who use examples of something illegal and compared it to something that is not. Human sacrifice is illegal, while animal sacrifice, if done without violating any laws, is legal. And killing a living entity just to selfishly appease their personal fantasy is no different than killing a living entity just to selfishly appease your personal preference of food.

It's injustice if freedom is only given to some and not all. Freedom is something that's important to have, but it can only work and be call freedom if it's given everyone.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
He who has ears let him listen... it's kinda like biblical prophecy being unveiled in front of you... knowing the power of the anti-Christ (hate) and how he gives it to the second devil (no love).

Except that nobody "knows" as you claim-- proof? None of those claiming to "know" can actually predict anything useful.

Moreover? It is absolutely the opposite of love to torture someone for any reason. So the bible's god is the opposite of loving...

Actually.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Well, there was a man who thought his wifes head was a ball and kicked it. So this "nonsense" could be a psychological disfunction.
Would you say the same thing about the religious impulse that issues fatwas urging followers to kill people such as Salman Rushdie, or Yusuf Islam (formerly known as Cat Stevens) who opined publicly that Rushdie "must die?"
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
No, that's just a Christian myth they like to believe so they can feel special and down out debate points they find uncomfortable, because "they don't have the holy ghost so they just don't understand."
Pure Bullocks.
The Bible is simple to understand.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
A chap in Arizona, Pablo Martinez, believed that his six-year-old son was possessed by a demon, because the boy exploded in a "fit of unnatural rage" at bath time. And so, of course, he poured scalding water down the boy's (presumably unwilling) throat, then held his head under water for 5-10 minutes. Well, naturally, the boy died -- presumably taking the "demon" with him.

I often wish the human species wasn't quite so prone to believing irrational things. It's not always a good thing...
I guess irrationality is based on subjective opinion, because people can always find a way to justify their actions, even if they wholeheartedly believe what they do is good.
There are things we can believe without taking things to one extreme or the other. The belief may not be wrong... Just our extreme view.

However, I do agree with you that, one's beliefs can make them act crazy.
As just one example...

GENETICS OF ZOOPHILIA
In their conversations, zoophiles frequently referred to the knowledge of genetics and how it is singly the most legitimate science explaining the roots of their non-normative sexual attraction to animals. Zoophiles believe that, within the animal kingdom, there are many instances of species engaging in sexual activities with each other. The reasoning behind how zoophiles justify their relationship with animals is grounded in the theory that genetics predisposed all existing species to engage in sexual activity. Since animals cannot know where their urges come from, zoos believe that genetics explains these behaviors, and is – de facto – soon to be proven explanation of their non-normative sexual interests.

"There is no God. Only the law of genetics. As we are born, the blue prints for the people we shall become are laid out. Our control over reality is an illusion. Our neurons will fire and our brain will behave as it is programmed regardless of what we do. The choices we make, the beliefs we have, the way we view the world, it is all predetermined by our genetics and our past experiences. We are on a train, going in one direction, no way of and no way to escape. It will always arrive at death. Always." - Mark 155

I recall hearing people argue that people don't carry out acts according to what recent scientific theories have taught them, but there it is, right from the horse's mouth... and that's just one area.
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
Would you say the same thing about the religious impulse that issues fatwas urging followers to kill people such as Salman Rushdie, or Yusuf Islam (formerly known as Cat Stevens) who opined publicly that Rushdie "must die?"

No. You're right. So also doesny apply to the murder of tyndale. You cant plug and play anything to all situations.

But something like a man killing the son thinking he is possessed maybe. You shouldnt make a decision prior to making a psychological analysis.

There are some people who believe in possession by some demon and even doctors prescribe exorcism as a psychological treatment and it works sometimes.

Thus, must study this in depth rather than making assumptions.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
I feel like because religion is somehow "socially acceptable" and even praised to at least a certain extent, as a society we are actually signaling that it is ok to have irrational beliefs. I think that's a mentality that needs to change.

Lots of luck convincing the Pascua Yaqui Tribe that their mentality needs to change. Are you ready to take the "Injuns" on in debate?
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
It's not a belief, but a fact that children die because their parents refuse to take them to a doctor, so instead of being easily cured they die slowly and painfully because prayers are not medicine. You don't take your kid to a doctor under any other circumstances and it's considered child abuse.
Again i am looking for one case, any case, where a child died as a result of parents withholding medical care; and, the parents do not face prosecution because of a religious exception.

Do you know one or not?
 

MonkeyFire

Well-Known Member
Except that nobody "knows" as you claim-- proof? None of those claiming to "know" can actually predict anything useful.

Moreover? It is absolutely the opposite of love to torture someone for any reason. So the bible's god is the opposite of loving...

Actually.

The Christian bible is old and out dated. For religion to progress in our nature we need to understand that the devil, not God, is the tormenter of hell, and then exstinguish the fire of adversity.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
A chap in Arizona, Pablo Martinez, believed that his six-year-old son was possessed by a demon, because the boy exploded in a "fit of unnatural rage" at bath time. And so, of course, he poured scalding water down the boy's (presumably unwilling) throat, then held his head under water for 5-10 minutes. Well, naturally, the boy died -- presumably taking the "demon" with him.

I often wish the human species wasn't quite so prone to believing irrational things. It's not always a good thing...

I believe that is often the case. It is just as irrational to believe demos don't exist but then most people won't have to encounter them.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Another fine example of freedom of religion being allowed too much freedom, so much that we say "oh well, it's religion," while under any other circumstance we call it criminal or mentally ill behavior.

I believe we also allow freedom of thought with just as many disastrous results.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Have you seen the movie "Twins?

Not yet, but I'll check it out.

re: Would breeding licenses work? Needless to say, there'd be a major backlash against it. I just roll the idea out on stage from time to time to rile breeders, who get too sanctimonious over the fact that they have problems which I, as a child-free person, can't and don't appreciate.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
And yet all that craziness brought us forth and opened up doors for exploration to move ahead. Those crazy ancients are why you are here.
That means that the ancients had enough to survive and procreate. It is hard to see that it also means they were much wiser about everything under the sun (and in some "spirit world") than we are. That would be a complete fallacy.

And the truth of the matter is this:.
  • There is less poverty in the world than ever before
  • The percentage of people with an education (including higher education) is higher than ever before
  • There are more literate people per capita than ever before
  • Fewer children die during or shortly after birth than ever before
  • More people live in the relative freedom of democracy than ever before
  • There are fewer wars at any time around the world than ever before
It's hard to understand why so many of us think that the shepherds and farmers, priests and kings and philosophers of so long ago were so much wiser than we can hope to be.
 
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