What did God achieve by sending Messengers?

[Trailblazer]

This is the continuation of a discussion between @ Trailblazer and @ QuestioningMind

I did not say that so it is a straw man. God achieved what He wanted to achieve by sending the Messenger but after that humans messed it all up by misinterpreting what was REVEALED by those Messengers.

That makes no sense. You're saying that god achieved everything he wanted to. So all he wanted to accomplish was to send messengers... he had absolutely no desire to achieve any understanding among the people as to what the messenger was trying to say.

God wanted His Messengers to achieve something or God would not have sent them. So, God wanted to achieve understanding among the people as to what the Messenger was trying to say through His Messengers.

I mean, IF he actually did achieve everything he wanted, then clearly what he wanted was for the messages delivered by his messengers to get messed up and misinterpreted by humans.

No, God did not WANT the messages delivered by his messengers to get messed up and misinterpreted by humans, but God ALLOWED that to happen because God honors human free will. God allows humans to do many things that God does not want them to do. The way we know that is because what God wants is revealed in the teachings and laws of Baha’u’llah, but we all know that everyone does not adhere to those.

God is not a teacher so the analogy does not fly. God reveals the scriptures through the Messenger and then the ball is in the human court. The reason the Bible was misinterpreted is because it was not written by a Messenger of God, it was written by men who were writing so many different things that were in-congruent and because there was no appointed interpreter of the Bible, so it was "anything goes."

Originally I was under the impression that your god wanted to teach human beings something, which is why god sent messengers to convey a specific message. But according to what you wrote above god has no desire to achieve understanding among humans, all he wanted to achieve was to send messengers.

God DESIRES that humans achieve understanding THROUGH the Messengers.

That would be kind of like as a teacher if the only goal I had was to pass out text books to my students, without any desire to see them achieve comprehension of what's in the text.

It is kind of like that but not exactly. Baha’u’llah wrote the scriptures and they have been made available for everyone to read. God and Baha’u’llah DESIRE that humans comprehend what is in the scriptures, but neither God nor Baha’u’llah are responsible for humans comprehending what is in the scriptures. Humans are responsible for comprehending them.

So you're right, my teacher analogy is completely off. However, it does tend to bolster my argument that god is a terribly ineffective communicator.

God is not a bad communicator just because humans cannot comprehend what was revealed in the Bible, because God did not even write the Bible, men wrote the Bible. However, as a divinely inspired text the primary message that God desired those men to convey did get conveyed in the Bible. One authoritative Baha’i position is as follows:

“The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words.” (9 August 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments​

God is All-Knowing so God knew that any misunderstandings Christians and Jews had had would be straightened out later when Baha’u’llah came and unsealed the Bible as per Daniel 12.

Daniel Chapter 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

It is not God’s fault that Jews and Christians do not recognize Baha’u’llah and read what he wrote about the Bible because all humans have free will.

What is meant by the END TIMES is not crystal clear in the Bible unless one has the Writings of Baha'u'llah to refer to as a guide to understanding the Bible.

Ever since the Bible was written Christians have been shooting in the dark trying to figure out what it meant. Logically speaking, if Christians had been able to understand what the Bible meant, they would not have had to hold councils like the Council of Nicaea to try to agree upon things like the nature of Jesus, whether he was God or a man. If Christians had been able to understand what the Bible means Daniel would not have said this:

Again, this just seems to support my notion that god is a terrible communicator. He sent us messages via the bible thousands of years ago PERFECTLY AWARE that the 'guide' humans would need to actually understand the messages wouldn't be sent for millennia. He decided to wait THOUSANDS of years before providing the clarifying guide... which gave human beings endless centuries to misinterpret the message and invest themselves in elaborate religions all based on incomplete information. That fact alone means that a significant number of people will dismiss the new messenger as nothing but another false prophet just attempting to trick them into abandoning the TRUE religion that their ancestors have been following for generations.

Christians and Jews had the essential teachings that were in contained in their scriptures in order to live moral lives as God intended. All the other things that were misunderstood were not vital to God’s Purpose for humans at that time. The Church fathers misinterpreted the Bible and created false doctrines such as Jesus is God and Jesus is the King Messiah but that is not on God; that is on humans. Because God honors human free will God allowed those men to do what they did.

If humans dismiss the new Messenger, that’s also on them. Nobody can blame God for that because God is not responsible for what humans choose to believe.

But that just means I've had an incorrect impression of what your god is attempting to do. According to you he's already achieved what he wanted, so clearly having people actually comprehend his message isn't among his goals. So of course he's a terrible communicator, because he has absolutely no desire to effectively communicate in the first place.

God achieved what He attempted to do when He sent the Messenger; in this age that was Baha’u’llah. Moreover, God ALWAYS achieves what He sets out to achieve through His Messengers, as this passage says, Primary Mirrors referring to the Messengers of God:

“Every one of them is a mirror of God, reflecting naught else but His Self, His Beauty, His Might and Glory, if ye will understand. All else besides them are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being, if ye be not devoid of understanding. No one hath ever escaped them, neither are they to be hindered from achieving their purpose. These Mirrors will everlastingly succeed each other, and will continue to reflect the light of the Ancient of Days. They that reflect their glory will, in like manner, continue to exist for evermore, for the Grace of God can never cease from flowing. This is a truth that none can disprove.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 74

Having people comprehend the message of the Messengers is among God’s goals, but it is not His responsibility. Humans are responsible for their own comprehension because they have been endowing by God with innate intelligence. As such, the Christians and Jews comprehended enough of the Bible to achieve God’s goals for that age.

The Messengers effectively communicated what was necessary to achieve God’s goals in every age since, as noted in the passage above, the Messengers have never been hindered from achieving their purpose.

(Continued on next post)

 

[Trailblazer]

I mean Jesus would have been just as effective as Baha'u'llah if it had been slated by God that Jesus would write His own scriptures, but it was not meant to be even if Jesus could write.

So god COULD have been a clear communicator from the start but chose NOT to be.

A religious dispensation is a divinely appointed age, which correlates to an age in history.

God clearly communicated what He desired to communicate during the Dispensation of Jesus. God did not desire to be as clear as He is now because people living back in that Dispensation were to ready for that kind of clear communication that we can understand now, but those people got what they needed from God at the time, and that is what is germane.

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g., the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

God could not have sent only Baha'u'llah and none of the other Messengers because every Messenger that was sent was sent to fulfill a specific mission, and all of them were necessary to prepare humanity for the next stage in humanity's evolution at which time another Messenger would come. Baha'u'llah explained why we are never supposed to discriminate against any Messenger, because all of their works were all ordained by God for the age in which they appeared. The Unity of God means that all the Messengers were sent by the same God and they were all working together in order to fulfill God's Purpose for mankind; not only that, but they were all the same Spirit of God which appeared in different human temples.

Interesting concept. If that's the case then I assume you can tell me what the specific mission was for Nostradamus.

Nostradamus was not a Messenger of God so he had no mission assigned to him by God.

 

[chinu]

What did God achieve by sending Messengers?

NON-Disturbance.

 

[MJFlores]

How would one know if the messenger is legit or just trying to make a living?
And if you find out that the messenger is not legit and not God certified individual, what do you do?

1 Timothy 6:6-10 New International Version (NIV)
But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

2 Peter 2:3 New International Version (NIV)
In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

 

[Aupmanyav]

God DESIRES that humans achieve understanding THROUGH the Messengers.

Thanks. We can do it on our own. We have Google, Wikipedia, Quora, Encyclopedia Britannica, Encyclopedia Americana, Encyclopedia Iranica (nice encyclopedia) and so many other sources. What will a 19th Century uneducated Muslim preacher can tell us! Do they show any authorization?

 

[Thief]

answering the op title.....

God would prefer a hands off …..let them learn.....situation
God gave Man dominion
Man needs to shoulder up and dominate

but of course.....something has to be said …..now and then

discretion is applied

you (He) could come booming down from heaven and scare everyone
and it might take years to recover.....

or speak to just one guy and let him take the lead

think about Star Trek
and the Prime Directive

but even in the tv show......something has to be said
discretion applied

 

[Sirona]

If there‘ s one thing I learned on this forum about arguing with Baha‘is, then it‘s that pinning them down is like trying to hold a big, wet, freshly-caught fish. You may be able to hold it for a little moment, but it‘s wriggling and writhing and constantly turning to get itself out of your grasp and back into the water. In a similar manner, the vast majority of Baha‘is I experienced here jump back and forth between literal and symbolic meanings of scriptures just as it suits them, so I found arguing with them an essentially useless exercise.

If you go for blind and doctrinal faith, you have my blessing, but don‘t expect others to have the same inclination.

 

[CG Didymus]

If there‘ s one thing I learned on this forum about arguing with Baha‘is, then it‘s that pinning them down is like trying to hold a big, wet, freshly-caught fish. You may be able to hold it for a little moment, but it‘s wriggling and writhing and constantly turning to get itself out of your grasp and back into the water. In a similar manner, the vast majority of Baha‘is I experienced here jump back and forth between literal and symbolic meanings of scriptures just as it suits them, so I found arguing with them an essentially useless exercise.

If you go for blind and doctrinal faith, you have my blessing, but don‘t expect others to have the same inclination.

Yes, this deserves a big "Winner". God knows all. God sends a messenger. That message gets distorted. Is that what God intended? Must be. Or... "no" God intended for the message to be maintained in its pure form, but God's hands are tied because he must allow for free will of the idiot people he created. Hmmm? But he knew they would make wrong choices? So that is what God wanted to accomplish. Send a messenger, let the people distort the message, and then tell them that they have chosen incorrectly and now must be punished?

Or, we are all just people trying to understand what life is all about. We all have come up with different ways of explaining it. We've made up Gods and rituals. Some have worked... or at least seem to have worked, then some other people tell us those things we have believed aren't true. So we try their beliefs and practices. Maybe we adapt are old beliefs in with these new beliefs from these other people. Maybe they work maybe they don't. We adapt and change them again. Are spiritual beliefs are evolving. Some go extinct. The ones that fit in and are still working for us, we keep. How will we adapt to this new religious movement of the Baha'is? It's just so slippery. Sirona, again, awesome post.

 

[Vinayaka]

If there‘ s one thing I learned on this forum about arguing with Baha‘is, then it‘s that pinning them down is like trying to hold a big, wet, freshly-caught fish. You may be able to hold it for a little moment, but it‘s wriggling and writhing and constantly turning to get itself out of your grasp and back into the water. In a similar manner, the vast majority of Baha‘is I experienced here jump back and forth between literal and symbolic meanings of scriptures just as it suits them, so I found arguing with them an essentially useless exercise.

If you go for blind and doctrinal faith, you have my blessing, but don‘t expect others to have the same inclination.

Many of us have dropped out. You have to admire the persistence ... I guess.

 

[Aupmanyav]

discretion applied

Unfortunately, that is what I always find missing. Some Tom, Dick and Harry says something and people start worshiping him.
There must be a reason for that. Content creation is a profession.

 

[Vinayaka]

Unfortunately, that is what I always find missing. Some Tom, Dick and Harry says something and people start worshiping him.
There must be a reason for that. Content creation is a profession.

Not just that, but the guy has to declare himself as well. (See Paarsurrey's questioning of the Sikh faith) That part I find just so astounding. It's so far outside the Hindu paradigm I find it difficult to even imagine there is such a thing.

My Guru called them spiritual blabbermouths. You have one or two semi-mystical experiences, and all you can do from then on out is tell everyone. The last person I'd ever want to listen to is some egomaniacal self aggrandizing blowhard.

But hey there must be a place for them.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The last person I'd ever want to listen to is some egomaniacal self aggrandizing blowhard.

^^^

 

[Mock Turtle]

What did God achieve by sending Messengers?

Two things, at least (messengers rather than one messenger) - the first being that the existence of such a being is brought into doubt by the possibility of many claiming to be messengers but just being mere mortals, and doing whatever for their own benefit rather than any God. Secondly, a question is also raised as to the competence of any God - requiring so many messengers, when we have the problem as highlighted before, even though it might be pointed out that different messengers were required at different stages in human development. But this is really nullified by the simple fact of the various messengers appearing at different locations, so then providing the basis for so many different religious beliefs (and often being divisive) rather than contributing to what was done before.

Messengers overall have weakened the concept of any God rather than strengthened it (one has only to look at the multitude of faiths), because they are more likely to be seen as being inspired by human processes than coming from God. And no matter what explanations we might come up with, there will always be an explanation for why God did this or that, so basically it is down to what one is likely to believe and/or see as evidence. As people seem to do all too often, one can pick and choose whatever belief seems to fit one's preferences. Great if God had planned a smorgasbord for us but doubtful if it also has more the appearance of human endeavour just as much.

 

[Trailblazer]

What did God achieve by sending Messengers?

Two things, at least (messengers rather than one messenger) - the first being that the existence of such a being is brought into doubt by the possibility of many claiming to be messengers but just being mere mortals, and doing whatever for their own benefit rather than any God.

If Messengers of God were mere mortals there would be no logial reason to believe in them. It is a Baha'i belief that they were more than mere mortals, as I described them in the following:

Messengers of God, what Baha’is normally refer to as Manifestations of God, possess two stations: one is the physical station pertaining to the world of matter, and the other is the spiritual station, born of the substance of God. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality. It is because they possess both a human and a divine station that they can act as *mediators* between God and man.

Every Manifestation of God is a mirror of God, reflecting God’s Self, God’s Beauty, God’s Might and Glory. All other human beings are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being,

The Manifestations of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God only speaks to them directly and through Them God communicates to humanity.

A detailed explanation why we can only understand God through His Messengers (Divine Manifestations) can be read on this link:

37: THE DIVINITY CAN ONLY BE COMPREHENDED THROUGH THE DIVINE MANIFESTATIONS

Secondly, a question is also raised as to the competence of any God - requiring so many messengers, when we have the problem as highlighted before, even though it might be pointed out that different messengers were required at different stages in human development. But this is really nullified by the simple fact of the various messengers appearing at different locations, so then providing the basis for so many different religious beliefs (and often being divisive) rather than contributing to what was done before.

The reason God needed to send so many Messengers is very simple. Mankind changes and the world we live in changes over time, so the remedy mankind needs in every age is different.

“No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80

God sends the Messengers at times they are most needed and to the locations which are most decadent at the time they are sent.

"All that lives, and this includes the religions, have springtime, a time of maturity, of harvest and wintertime. Then religion becomes barren, a lifeless adherence to the letter uninformed by the spirit, and man’s spiritual life declines. When we look at religious history, we see that God has spoken to men precisely at times when they have reached the nadir of their degradation and cultural decadence. Moses came to Israel when it was languishing under the Pharaoh’s yoke, Christ appeared at a time when the Jewish Faith had lost its power and culture of antiquity was in its death those. Muhammad came to a people who lived in barbaric ignorance at the lowest level of culture and into a world in which the former religions had strayed far away from their origins and nearly lost their identity. The Bab addressed Himself to a people who had irretrievably lost their former grandeur and who found themselves in a state of hopeless decadence. Baha’u’llah came to a humanity which was approaching the most critical phase of its history." (Udo Schaefer, The Light Shineth in Darkness, p. 24)

Messengers overall have weakened the concept of any God rather than strengthened it (one has only to look at the multitude of faiths), because they are more likely to be seen as being inspired by human processes than coming from God.

Messengers have weakened the concept of God for nonbelievers since they do not understand what a Messenger of God is and why He is needed. Messengers have strengthened the concept of God for the majority of the world population given 84 percent of the world population has a faith and most faiths have a religious Founder or what I call a Messenger. That means most people believe in God because of a Messenger.

And no matter what explanations we might come up with, there will always be an explanation for why God did this or that, so basically it is down to what one is likely to believe and/or see as evidence. As people seem to do all too often, one can pick and choose whatever belief seems to fit one's preferences. Great if God had planned a smorgasbord for us but doubtful if it also has more the appearance of human endeavour just as much.

You are correct that it all boils down to what people are willing to believe and what they see as evidence. I do not believe that God planned a smorgasbord for us, but rather that God wants us to recognize and follow the Messenger He sent for the age we live in, not the Messengers who were sent in previous ages. But obviously that is not what actually happens, because most people are attached to their older Messenger and their older religion and they thus reject the new Messenger and His Message.

As the quote above says: "All that lives, and this includes the religions, have springtime, a time of maturity, of harvest and wintertime. Then religion becomes barren, a lifeless adherence to the letter uninformed by the spirit, and man’s spiritual life declines." It is a Baha'i belief that the older religions have declined and no longer meet the needs of the times, and that is why religion has to be renewed in every age

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

 

[CG Didymus]

What did God achieve by sending Messengers?

Two things, at least (messengers rather than one messenger) - the first being that the existence of such a being is brought into doubt by the possibility of many claiming to be messengers but just being mere mortals, and doing whatever for their own benefit rather than any God. Secondly, a question is also raised as to the competence of any God - requiring so many messengers, when we have the problem as highlighted before, even though it might be pointed out that different messengers were required at different stages in human development. But this is really nullified by the simple fact of the various messengers appearing at different locations, so then providing the basis for so many different religious beliefs (and often being divisive) rather than contributing to what was done before.

Messengers overall have weakened the concept of any God rather than strengthened it (one has only to look at the multitude of faiths), because they are more likely to be seen as being inspired by human processes than coming from God. And no matter what explanations we might come up with, there will always be an explanation for why God did this or that, so basically it is down to what one is likely to believe and/or see as evidence. As people seem to do all too often, one can pick and choose whatever belief seems to fit one's preferences. Great if God had planned a smorgasbord for us but doubtful if it also has more the appearance of human endeavour just as much.

I agree with you. Baha'is have Krishna as a manifestation, but Krishna was the eight Avatar of Vishnu... which made him an incarnation of Vishnu. Is Vishnu "The God"? Who knows. Baha'is have Buddha as a manifestation. I'm not sure if even he would call himself a manifestation of the one God. Then there is Zoroaster. I think he might have taught a dualistic Good versus Evil thing going on in the spirit world. The Good God of course wins in the end.

Then we get to the long line of manifestations from Judaism. Adam? Baha'is have some non-Biblical reference that supports that I think. But no way does the Bible story support Adam as being a manifestation. Same thing with Noah. The Bible has the flood story and that Noah was like 950 years old when he died. I don't think the Baha'i believe any of that... maybe symbolically. Then comes Abraham. He was a patriarch of Judaism. But what in the Bible did he do that would give anyone the impression that he was a manifestation?

Now comes the big guys. The first is Moses. Still part of Judaism, he killed an Egyptian, had a walking stick that turned into a snake, raised it in the air and the seas parted. Pretty impressive. But did any of it really happen? Most Jews and Christians do, but do Baha'is? Same with Jesus. He did all kinds of things that if people saw them... they say that "this guy must be from God." But do Baha'is believe that any of them really happened?

Yet, they say they believe all these people are manifestations of the one true God. The beliefs, the stories, to me, could much better be explained as religious myth. People made their Gods and their religion to fit their culture. And I have no reason to change that opinion as yet.

 

[Mock Turtle]

If Messengers of God were mere mortals there would be no logial reason to believe in them. It is a Baha'i belief that they were more than mere mortals, as I described them in the following:

Messengers of God, what Baha’is normally refer to as Manifestations of God, possess two stations: one is the physical station pertaining to the world of matter, and the other is the spiritual station, born of the substance of God. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality. It is because they possess both a human and a divine station that they can act as *mediators* between God and man.

Every Manifestation of God is a mirror of God, reflecting God’s Self, God’s Beauty, God’s Might and Glory. All other human beings are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being,

The Manifestations of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God only speaks to them directly and through Them God communicates to humanity.

A detailed explanation why we can only understand God through His Messengers (Divine Manifestations) can be read on this link:

37: THE DIVINITY CAN ONLY BE COMPREHENDED THROUGH THE DIVINE MANIFESTATIONS

The reason God needed to send so many Messengers is very simple. Mankind changes and the world we live in changes over time, so the remedy mankind needs in every age is different.

“No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80

God sends the Messengers at times they are most needed and to the locations which are most decadent at the time they are sent.

"All that lives, and this includes the religions, have springtime, a time of maturity, of harvest and wintertime. Then religion becomes barren, a lifeless adherence to the letter uninformed by the spirit, and man’s spiritual life declines. When we look at religious history, we see that God has spoken to men precisely at times when they have reached the nadir of their degradation and cultural decadence. Moses came to Israel when it was languishing under the Pharaoh’s yoke, Christ appeared at a time when the Jewish Faith had lost its power and culture of antiquity was in its death those. Muhammad came to a people who lived in barbaric ignorance at the lowest level of culture and into a world in which the former religions had strayed far away from their origins and nearly lost their identity. The Bab addressed Himself to a people who had irretrievably lost their former grandeur and who found themselves in a state of hopeless decadence. Baha’u’llah came to a humanity which was approaching the most critical phase of its history." (Udo Schaefer, The Light Shineth in Darkness, p. 24)

Messengers have weakened the concept of God for nonbelievers since they do not understand what a Messenger of God is and why He is needed. Messengers have strengthened the concept of God for the majority of the world population given 84 percent of the world population has a faith and most faiths have a religious Founder or what I call a Messenger. That means most people believe in God because of a Messenger.

You are correct that it all boils down to what people are willing to believe and what they see as evidence. I do not believe that God planned a smorgasbord for us, but rather that God wants us to recognize and follow the Messenger He sent for the age we live in, not the Messengers who were sent in previous ages. But obviously that is not what actually happens, because most people are attached to their older Messenger and their older religion and they thus reject the new Messenger and His Message.

As the quote above says: "All that lives, and this includes the religions, have springtime, a time of maturity, of harvest and wintertime. Then religion becomes barren, a lifeless adherence to the letter uninformed by the spirit, and man’s spiritual life declines." It is a Baha'i belief that the older religions have declined and no longer meet the needs of the times, and that is why religion has to be renewed in every age

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

Well you haven't said anything that was unexpected, since as I said, one can find an explanation for virtually anything to do with a belief in God or gods. And the basic fact remains that it is purely a choice as to whether one believes one is a messenger and another is a fraud - and often depending on any corroborating evidence which one might choose as such.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well you haven't said anything that was unexpected, since as I said, one can find an explanation for virtually anything to do with a belief in God or gods.

That is true. And everyone's explanations are going to be different, because everyone is different in how they think and what they will ultimately choose. Humans have the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances.

And the basic fact remains that it is purely a choice as to whether one believes one is a messenger and another is a fraud - and often depending on any corroborating evidence which one might choose as such.

I would say it is purely our choice as to whether we believe a claimant is a Messenger or not. Our choices will vary depending upon the combination of factors noted above that make us who we are and lead us to make decisions.