What do Atheists Want?

[Audie]

I live indoors and outdoors. I'm very outdoorsy.

Outdoors is very useful

 

[Viker]

Outdoors is very useful

Yep. Gives one a fresh perspective.

 

[Audie]

Yep. Gives one a fresh perspective.

I was thinking how its useful for
getting me back indoors somewhere else.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

You can't think of any other appeal of this activity to atheists other than discussing the theology of believers? There is no appeal at all in that to me.

There are several good reasons to participate here.

I like practicing constructing arguments and identifying and naming logical fallacies. I like writing my thoughts out, which helps clarify them.

I have acquired several valuable ideas just in the last year or two, such as finally realizing that most of the people we discuss critical thinking with here don't know what it is or what it does. I had thought that they did, as with math, saw that it has value but that they just hadn't developed the skill.

I finally recognized that when theists ask for proof, they are aren't asking for proof. I've learned that when people tell me that my worldview is too myopic and that I am missing out on spiritual truths not available to myopic, materialistic mind, that they can present nothing at all that I would consider useful for their efforts.

Another of the benefits to being here is the ability to see a spectrum of religious and humanist thinkers to get a sense of what effect religion has on believers according to the religion, and how the believers compare to the irreligious intellectually and morally - that is, what benefit or harm does the religious life confer on the faithful. The insight I gleaned there is that a little religion mainstream is probably harmless, but that the more zealous the theist, the more it negatively impacts him. Can I mention that although several theists do as well there as the typical secular humanist and frankly would be indistinguishable from them if they hadn't said they were theists, none do better, and many do much worse, which supports my conclusion that the less religion in anybody's life, the better.



But we don't. It's not the religions that are interesting. It's human behavior - watching people that know almost no science arguing about it with those that do, watching theists start thread after thread about what's wrong with atheists and how immoral or unfair they are, seeing how many theists have no idea what goes on in the atheist's head, and the like. Where else but on venues like this one can one have frank, protracted discussions with the same believers? It's an education.



The rise of atheism is due to a variety of factors, none of them being what you suggested.

The religious phase of man's history will be the time between when man first started asking questions and when he got his answers. So, with the rise of science comes the diminution of the influence of religion. With the rise of the Internet, atheists got a voice. With religion's endless moral failings parading by in the news, people are simply not looking to religion for answers or relevance like they once did. And the rise of atheism itself is a catalyst accelerating its own growth, as atheism is increasingly seen as a respectable and socially acceptable option. It you can't shame people, or demonize them, or threaten them with perdition, or silence them, or get into their public schools with prayer and creationism, religion will begin to evaporate away.

In summary, I'm here to think about matters like this and to write posts like this one.

Well said and spot on. FWIW, your comment about the rise of atheism reminded me of these quotes, particularly the second one.

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." - Mahatma Gandhi

"The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians: who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.” - Brennan Manning

 

[AdamjEdgar]

Well said and spot on. FWIW, your comment about the rise of atheism reminded me of these quotes, particularly the second one.

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." - Mahatma Gandhi

"The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians: who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.” - Brennan Manning

but couldnt we Christians just go back to basics...I choose not to be an atheist simply because, my own design tendencies and the need for self actualisation demands that my life must have some meaning and future existence beyond the here and now. I want a future consciousness...the only historically supported world view that offers such an outcome appears to be Christianity!

To simplify my reasoning...I use Lottery thinking...

If one wishes to win the lottery, even though the odds of winning are very small, so small its essentially pointless even playing, I might win so i would need to play! Christianity on the other hand, has a lot more evidence that supports it story,it does genuninely present a better lifestyle and i think the odds are likely (although i cannot say entirely provable) in favour of its authenticity. Lotto does not promote giving or temperance!

oh just before someone comes out with it...People who win lotto usually buy what they want before giving to charity...Jesus said, give up everything and follow him with what is left (two complete opposites)

 

[Subduction Zone]

but couldnt we Christians just go back to basics...I choose not to be an atheist simply because, my own design tendencies and the need for self actualisation demands that my life must have some meaning and future existence beyond the here and now. I want a future consciousness...the only historically supported world view that offers such an outcome appears to be Christianity!

The simplify my reasoning...I use Lottery thinking...

If one wishes to win the lottery, even though the odds of winning are very small, so small its essentially pointless even playing, I might win! Christianity on the other hand, has a lot more evidence that supports it story,it does genuninely present a better lifestyle and i think the odds are likely (although i cannot say entirely provable) in favour of its authenticity. Lotto does not promote giving or temperance!

oh just before someone comes out with it...People who win lotto usually buy what they want before giving to charity...Jesus said, give up everything and follow him with what is left (two complete opposites)

Then why not become a Pastafarian? More moral God and a far superior heaven.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I have been thinking lately about the collective responses that I receive from those who reject the God narratives.

I will be the first to concede any debate against my Atheist friends as their grasp to reality is what keeps them grounded and their attention to humanly influence and scientific evidences are crucial to holding less to fantasy and more to the world and the physicality around them. Who can blame a person that would rather devote their life to science books than fantasy? Aren't their interests just as valid?

I can imagine that to the Atheist, whether God exists or not, the mere reasoning behind the way He does things wouldn't be something they could worship or admire. I could see an Atheists conversation with God after death be something like this: "Could you blame me? You had built a world that had so much evil and death inside it, when you could have made it like _________.

I am sure Atheist would love to have a conversation with God. To hear his response to their complaints about what happened and why they happened that way. Heck, I think Theists would eavesdrop in as well to that dialogue.

I believe in a God that does reason with people. We give him the title of Righteous Judge for a reason. He will hear out your side to the sentencing and based on whether He feels you have had sufficient evidence or not will judge you as fairly as possible, better so, than any person could fathom in today's judicial systems.

So is that what Atheists want? Why do they even join this Religious Forum I wonder? Do they want to live forever being right? Or do they want to live forever feeling wronged?

The truth is, whether you believe in God or not, you will die. I'm sorry for the spoiler alert to some of you. When that happens, will Atheists and Theists get what they want? I can only speak as a theist. What do Atheist think?

You start by asking a question -- and then spend the rest of your post making sure any answer has already been rejected!

But my answer is: since I'm here, since I'm alive, I'd like to know what's true and what isn't, what it means to live well as a human being, why the sky appears blue and whether pigs have wings. And I believe that, with effort, with reason and with a commitment to my own humanity, I can learn a lot of those things. I also know -- of an absolute certainty -- that traditional religious dogma will teach me none.

The Enlightenment -- which populism these days is threatening -- gave us a lot of ideas. Some of these, I don't doubt, were contradictory, but four themes can bring them together: reason, science, humanism and a commitment to progress. Reason is prime, but it gives voice to the others. This is how we can understand our world, and our place in it.

But how we will never truly understand our world, and I say again that populism is leading us back there, is to fall back on the things that cause delusion more than anything else: faith, dogma, revelation, authority, charisma, mysticism, divination, visions, gut feelings, sacred texts (especially to find presumed "hidden messages").

In my view, you can either learn or believe. I prefer to learn. Whatever the cost.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

Then why not become a Pastafarian? More moral God and a far superior heaven.

because a "flying spaghetti monster" is an insult to my intelligence!

It also ignores the overwhelming historical evidence that supports the Bible narrative. It is ridiculous to say that Christians need to provide the burden of proof...we already do that. Atheists ignore it because they simply do not wish to face the balance beam and be found way too light on their end of it.

For example, one of the most common arguments i hear atheists use against christianity is the morality argument. It is also the argument they themselves cannot answer. If we cannot blame a supernatural figure for all the evil in this world, then clearly, atheists can only blame mankind for evil!

So, why is mankind so evil according to atheism? At least Christians have a decent answer with a historical theme...Satan, the fall of man, the plan of redemption, and the future restoration of this sinful planet and its inhabitants back to the original perfection that Lucifer corrupted!

 

[Viker]

but couldnt we Christians just go back to basics...I choose not to be an atheist simply because, my own design tendencies and the need for self actualisation demands that my life must have some meaning and future existence beyond the here and now. I want a future consciousness...the only historically supported world view that offers such an outcome appears to be Christianity!

To simplify my reasoning...I use Lottery thinking...

If one wishes to win the lottery, even though the odds of winning are very small, so small its essentially pointless even playing, I might win so i would need to play! Christianity on the other hand, has a lot more evidence that supports it story,it does genuninely present a better lifestyle and i think the odds are likely (although i cannot say entirely provable) in favour of its authenticity. Lotto does not promote giving or temperance!

oh just before someone comes out with it...People who win lotto usually buy what they want before giving to charity...Jesus said, give up everything and follow him with what is left (two complete opposites)

The lottery is for suckers.

 

[Viker]

because a "flying spaghetti monster" is an insult to my intelligence!

It also ignores the overwhelming historical evidence that supports the Bible narrative. It is ridiculous to say that Christians need to provide the burden of proof...we already do that. Atheists ignore it because they simply do not wish to face the balance beam and be found way too light on their end of it.

History supports Hindu scriptures. Why just your narrative?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Then why not become a Pastafarian? More moral God and a far superior heaven.

A more moral god than the Christian god sounds okay to me. A god that commits global genocide (sparing only one family) because he gets royally ticked off about how his creation turned out is not a moral and righteous god. Of course, the accuracy of the global flood story solely depends on whether the Bible is true or not. However, if the Bible is accurate, then the Christian god is a sadistic, psychopathic, barbaric, bloodthirsty, genocidal maniac who takes pleasure in wrecking havoc throughout the world (Isaiah 45:7), and then sits back and watches his creation tear itself apart and does nothing to stop all the violence and human suffering. If the Bible is true, then the Christian god most certainly isn't a god worthy of worship and reverence. It's a god that should be shunned.

 

[Audie]

but couldnt we Christians just go back to basics...I choose not to be an atheist simply because, my own design tendencies and the need for self actualisation demands that my life must have some meaning and future existence beyond the here and now. I want a future consciousness...the only historically supported world view that offers such an outcome appears to be Christianity!

To simplify my reasoning...I use Lottery thinking...

If one wishes to win the lottery, even though the odds of winning are very small, so small its essentially pointless even playing, I might win so i would need to play! Christianity on the other hand, has a lot more evidence that supports it story,it does genuninely present a better lifestyle and i think the odds are likely (although i cannot say entirely provable) in favour of its authenticity. Lotto does not promote giving or temperance!

oh just before someone comes out with it...People who win lotto usually buy what they want before giving to charity...Jesus said, give up everything and follow him with what is left (two complete opposites)

"Choose" to believe and pascals wager.
Terrif.

 

[Audie]

because a "flying spaghetti monster" is an insult to my intelligence!

It also ignores the overwhelming historical evidence that supports the Bible narrative. It is ridiculous to say that Christians need to provide the burden of proof...we already do that. Atheists ignore it because they simply do not wish to face the balance beam and be found way too light on their end of it.

For example, one of the most common arguments i hear atheists use against christianity is the morality argument. It is also the argument they themselves cannot answer. If we cannot blame a supernatural figure for all the evil in this world, then clearly, atheists can only blame mankind for evil!

So, why is mankind so evil according to atheism? At least Christians have a decent answer with a historical theme...Satan, the fall of man, the plan of redemption, and the future restoration of this sinful planet and its inhabitants back to the original perfection that Lucifer corrupted!

Insults to intelligence are your topic?

Claiming the flood is an actual historic
event disqualifies any further comments.

 

[Viker]

because a "flying spaghetti monster" is an insult to my intelligence!

It also ignores the overwhelming historical evidence that supports the Bible narrative. It is ridiculous to say that Christians need to provide the burden of proof...we already do that. Atheists ignore it because they simply do not wish to face the balance beam and be found way too light on their end of it.

For example, one of the most common arguments i hear atheists use against christianity is the morality argument. It is also the argument they themselves cannot answer. If we cannot blame a supernatural figure for all the evil in this world, then clearly, atheists can only blame mankind for evil!

So, why is mankind so evil according to atheism? At least Christians have a decent answer with a historical theme...Satan, the fall of man, the plan of redemption, and the future restoration of this sinful planet and its inhabitants back to the original perfection that Lucifer corrupted!

Mankind commits evil because mankind chooses. Responsibility falls entirely to mankind.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

"Choose" to believe and pascals wager.
Terrif.

I guess that in a way that is exactly what it is...I mean lets face it, can i legimately win the lotto without buying a ticket?

We havea binary choice...I think that is universally accepted as being obvious...

God does tell us in Revelation 3

14To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originatore of God’s creation.
15I know your deeds; you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were one or the other!
16So because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to vomit you out of My mouth!
17You say, ‘I am rich; I have grown wealthy and need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked....
20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me.
21To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

I attended a funderal a few years ago for a cousin of mine who passed away in a car accident. She was a young person full of life in her late teens and one of two who passed away in the accident. The funeral service was attended by a large number of her fellow school students. Almost none of the group were Christian...the sense of loss, utter dispair, and complete hopelessness in that they would never see either of these two young ladies again was, i think one of the saddest moments in my life. I longed for these people to believe in God so that if nothing else, they could at least have dreams beyond their dispair!

I know this is a silly thing to say, however, i would rather believe in a fairytale that might actually be true having a lot of evidence in support of its authenticity, then believe in nothing and travel the journey of life looking forward an alternative that is..."kaput"!​

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

"Choose" to believe and pascals wager.
Terrif.

Christianity is basically a religion of fearmongering: fearing the Christian god, fear of going to hell for "sinning" against this god and not asking this god for his forgiveness for disobeying him, and shame and guilt for "sinning" against this god. It was a relief to me when I finally broke free from Christianity. I no longer allow myself to be ensnared by the fearmongering tactics of this religion.

 

[Audie]

I guess that in a way that is exactly what it is...I mean lets face it, can i legimately win the lotto without buying a ticket?

We havea binary choice...I think that is universally accepted as being obvious...

God does tell us in Revelation 3

14To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originatore of God’s creation.
15I know your deeds; you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were one or the other!
16So because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to vomit you out of My mouth!
17You say, ‘I am rich; I have grown wealthy and need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked....
20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me.
21To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

I attended a funderal a few years ago for a cousin of mine who passed away in a car accident. She was a young person full of life in her late teens and one of two who passed away in the accident. The funeral service was attended by a large number of her fellow school students. Almost none of the group were Christian...the sense of loss, utter dispair, and complete hopelessness in that they would never see either of these two young ladies again was, i think one of the saddest moments in my life. I longed for these people to believe in God so that if nothing else, they could at least have dreams beyond their dispair!

I know this is a silly thing to say, however, i would rather believe in a fairytale that might actually be true having a lot of evidence in support of its authenticity, then believe in nothing and travel the journey of life looking forward an alternative that is..."kaput"!​

Suture self

 

[Audie]

Christianity is basically a religion of fearmongering: fearing the Christian god, fear of going to hell for "sinning" against this god and not asking this god for his forgiveness for disobeying him, and shame and guilt for "sinning" against this god. It was a relief to me when I finally broke free from Christianity. I no longer allow myself to be ensnared by the fearmongering tactics of this religion.

I was not raised as a Christian.
When i learned what it is, I was
to put it mildly, glad.

Symbols of torture and cannibalism
arentvmuch of draw for me anyway.

Weird stuff.

But yeah, fearmongering
The ultimate in carrot- n- stick
motivation!

 

[Clara Tea]

I was not raised as a Christian.
When I learned what it is, I was
to put it mildly, glad.

Among the first things to notice
are the symbols or torture and cannibalism.

Weird stuff.

But yeah, fearmongering
The ultimate in carrot- n- stick
motivation!

Not only is there fear of hell, there is also fear of thinking wrong thoughts about God or saying these things to others. Even forums feel that people are against religion if they notice abuses of the church (such as child raping priests).

There is much pressure to remain silent.

I am certain that God did not intend to torture humans nor kill them. So, the Salem Witch Trials were against the will of God.

Similarly, actions against Gays are against the will of God. Though their actions are not sanctioned by God, God says that only he is the judge.

 

[Clara Tea]

Christianity is basically a religion of fearmongering: fearing the Christian god, fear of going to hell for "sinning" against this god and not asking this god for his forgiveness for disobeying him, and shame and guilt for "sinning" against this god. It was a relief to me when I finally broke free from Christianity. I no longer allow myself to be ensnared by the fearmongering tactics of this religion.

Yes, fearmongering.