What do Christians really think about the Qur'an

[Pegg]

You don't have to practice polygamy to be a Muslim, so it is a moot point.

Second, you still don't understand Sharia law.

thats true, muslims do not have to... but they can if they want... unless they live in a western country which does not permit polygamy.

I understand that sharia law cannot be administered where it has no jurisdiction ... and it has no jurisdiction in the west.

 

[fallingblood]

thats true, muslims do not have to... but they can if they want... unless they live in a western country which does not permit polygamy.

I understand that sharia law cannot be administered where it has no jurisdiction ... and it has no jurisdiction in the west.

I can still practice Sharia Law without some jurisdiction administrating it. If wanted, I can have two wives. It may not be legal, but I can treat them both as wives, and we can live that way. I choose not to, but it doesn't mean I can't.

And as has been pointed out, all a Muslim needs is the Quran. So still, your point is moot.

 

[Pegg]

I can still practice Sharia Law without some jurisdiction administrating it. If wanted, I can have two wives. It may not be legal, but I can treat them both as wives, and we can live that way. I choose not to, but it doesn't mean I can't.

And as has been pointed out, all a Muslim needs is the Quran. So still, your point is moot.

and the corporal punishments administered under sharia law...do you think you can practice that aspect of the Quran in any western land?

 

[fallingblood]

and the corporal punishments administered under sharia law...do you think you can practice that aspect of the Quran in any western land?

I don't need to. And neither does any Muslim.

 

[Pegg]

I don't need to. And neither does any Muslim.

so public floggings for all manner of crimes against the Quran are a figment of the imagination?

Or could it be that muslims in western lands do not practice ALL of what is required in the Quran because they are unable to practice them in western lands due to them being in conflict with western laws?


Can i ask if you ever lived in an Arab land where theocracy was the rule of law? Would you like to live in such lands under such laws?

 

[Wombat]

Well, I'm not religious, but I was raised Catholic. My parents are very open-minded, so I wasn't raised with negative ideas about the Islamic religion. I didn't really learn anything about Islam at all. But when I went to the library and saw some good books about Islam, I started learning more and more about this religion. And I think that Islam is a very peaceful religion, but unfortunately, there's always a small group of people that does negative things in the name of God. But I don't blame Islam itself for it.

:yes::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow: :bow:

 

[fallingblood]

so public floggings for all manner of crimes against the Quran are a figment of the imagination?

Yes, they are figments of your imagination

Or could it be that muslims in western lands do not practice ALL of what is required in the Quran because they are unable to practice them in western lands due to them being in conflict with western laws?

No, it is not that. The Quran does not teach that I have to flog other people.

Can i ask if you ever lived in an Arab land where theocracy was the rule of law? Would you like to live in such lands under such laws?

Pointless question. Most Muslims don't live in Arabia. Southeast Asia is more predominant with Muslims.

You also have to realize that many of those Arab countries, that are theocracies, or are largely Muslim populated, don't always portray Islam. A lot of what they do is also cultural based, and separate from what the Quran teaches.

 

[Pegg]

Yes, they are figments of your imagination
No, it is not that. The Quran does not teach that I have to flog other people.

Pointless question. Most Muslims don't live in Arabia. Southeast Asia is more predominant with Muslims.

You also have to realize that many of those Arab countries, that are theocracies, or are largely Muslim populated, don't always portray Islam. A lot of what they do is also cultural based, and separate from what the Quran teaches.

if a lot of what we see really is just cultural based, then one must ask what is the point of the Quran. Muhammad was trying to improve the lives of Arabs in the 7th century i would assume, yet we see that the violent and oppressive culture of his day has not changed much at all, and the very things that you say are not part of Islam, are still being practiced.

What you are really showing here is that the Quran is not powerful enough to change people or cultures. To me, that is because it is not a divinely inspired book.

 

[fallingblood]

if a lot of what we see really is just cultural based, then one must ask what is the point of the Quran. Muhammad was trying to improve the lives of Arabs in the 7th century i would assume, yet we see that the violent and oppressive culture of his day has not changed much at all, and the very things that you say are not part of Islam, are still being practiced.

What you are really showing here is that the Quran is not powerful enough to change people or cultures. To me, that is because it is not a divinely inspired book.

That is because you still don't seem to understand that the vast majority of Muslims don't live in Arab countries. More so, it doesn't seem that you realize just how far some of these Arab countries have gone. All you have been doing is focusing on a small minority and assuming that is true for all Muslims.

But if we use your logic, what about all the persecution, and evil done by Christians? We can look at Christianity and the evils done in years past. For instance, it was a result of Christianity that anti-semitism rose so much. The Crusades, Inquisitions, all supported by the Christian church. Even witch burnings, sponsored and accepted by the Christian church. Well, the Bible was not powerful enough to change these ideas at the time. Things progressively got worse. So by your logic, the Bible can not be divinely inspired.

Now if you come back and say that Christianity has changed now, then you have to accept that it would be possible that Islam will also change (even though neither the transactions of some Christians or some Muslims define the religion, yet you seem to be implying that). So your point is moot.

If you come back and say that it wasn't Christianity that caused the Crusades or Inquisitions, or the like, then you have to accept that Islam doesn't cause the evils that some of its members perform.

Either way, your case really doesn't stand.

 

[Pegg]

That is because you still don't seem to understand that the vast majority of Muslims don't live in Arab countries. More so, it doesn't seem that you realize just how far some of these Arab countries have gone. All you have been doing is focusing on a small minority and assuming that is true for all Muslims.

Ok. Let me agree with you here for a moment and say that it is only a small minority of muslims who participate in administering sharia law that calls for corporal punishment.... where do they get those laws from?

But if we use your logic, what about all the persecution, and evil done by Christians? We can look at Christianity and the evils done in years past. For instance, it was a result of Christianity that anti-semitism rose so much. The Crusades, Inquisitions, all supported by the Christian church. Even witch burnings, sponsored and accepted by the Christian church. Well, the Bible was not powerful enough to change these ideas at the time. Things progressively got worse. So by your logic, the Bible can not be divinely inspired.

Perhaps you dont realise that the bible itself warns christians that their church was going to be hijacked and dominated by false teachers. These ones would lead christianity astray for a time...but later they would be revealed and true christians would break free of their hold. Jesus illustration of allowing the weeds and wheat grow together until the harvest described the condition of the church....there would be good and bad christians growing together until the harvest.

Jesus warning:
Matthew 7:15 “Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them

Pauls caution to christians:
Acts 20:29-30 "I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among YOU and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among YOU yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves"

1Timothy 4:1-3 "However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; 3 forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created"

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works

That sort of insight surely indicates that the bible is a divinely inspired book...if it were a book of men, why would they speak so honestly about the bad that was to come.
Although, this is kind of supports my point because christianity has shaped the western world to be a place of tolerance, freedom and human rights....even with many bad eggs in among them.

Now if you come back and say that Christianity has changed now, then you have to accept that it would be possible that Islam will also change (even though neither the transactions of some Christians or some Muslims define the religion, yet you seem to be implying that). So your point is moot.

Could it change? It certainly can, however that would require that Muhammads words be watered down or redefined...which is what a lot of modern clerics do. And this supports my original point that Islam cannot be fully practiced in western lands...it has to be diluted and changed in order to be compatible with western civilization.

in saying that, its commendable and admirable of Muslims willing to stand up and actually make those changes. In Australia they are called 'moderate Muslims' ... unfortunately they often get a lot of criticism from the rest of the Muslim community.

If you come back and say that it wasn't Christianity that caused the Crusades or Inquisitions, or the like, then you have to accept that Islam doesn't cause the evils that some of its members perform.

Either way, your case really doesn't stand.

By 'evils' do you mean things like terrorist activity?

I've been talking about penalties of Sharia law. The sort of pentalties that see women whipped for wearing trousers underneath their dresses, or adulterers stoned to death... these are the things im talking about. And if you have been talking about these things as 'evils' then where do these punishments come from? Is it not the Quran??

 

[Maury83]

The Qur'an or Koran contains many contents similarities to the Bible, which gives the idea that it was derived somehow from the Bible. The Bible however is the oldest book ever been written, the Qur'an isn't that old. Another interesting point is that the Qur'an contains several points were it invites the reader to consult the Bible. All in all a true Christian respects people from all backgrounds.

 

[Madhuri]

The Qur'an or Koran contains many contents similarities to the Bible, which gives the idea that it was derived somehow from the Bible. The Bible however is the oldest book ever been written, the Qur'an isn't that old. Another interesting point is that the Qur'an contains several points were it invites the reader to consult the Bible. All in all a true Christian respects people from all backgrounds.

The Bible is not very old, and certainly not the oldest book ever written. Even if you just consider Judaism and Jewish texts. Also, Islam seems more similar to Judaism than Christianity.
A true Christian might better respect all backgrounds by acknowledging the real histories of those backgrounds.

 

[Gaura Priya]

Ok. Let me agree with you here for a moment and say that it is only a small minority of muslims who participate in administering sharia law that calls for corporal punishment.... where do they get those laws from?

And where did the Inquisition, the Crusades, and all of supposed 'Christendom' get their ways of punishment from?

"You must not preserve a sorceress alive."
-- Exodus 22:18

"Let as many as are slaves under a yoke keep on considering their owners worthy of full honor, that the name of God and the teaching may never be spoken of injuriously. Moreover, let those having believing owners not look down on them, because they are brothers. On the contrary, let them the more readily be slaves, because those receiving the benefit of their good service are believers and beloved."
-- 1 Timothy 6:1-2

I would be completely afraid if certain Christian societies would come into power, as much as any evangelical or fanatical, strict religious authority. Under the Bible's authority, slavery would still have existed, as well as killing those who practice witchcraft, such as Wiccans or Neo-Pagans.

Perhaps you dont realise that the bible itself warns christians that their church was going to be hijacked and dominated by false teachers. These ones would lead christianity astray for a time...but later they would be revealed and true christians would break free of their hold. Jesus illustration of allowing the weeds and wheat grow together until the harvest described the condition of the church....there would be good and bad christians growing together until the harvest.

Although, this is kind of supports my point because christianity has shaped the western world to be a place of tolerance, freedom and human rights....even with many bad eggs in among them.

The Qur'an also speaks of how Christians have corrupted their Bible and follow an evil path:

"If they had observed the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto them from their Lord, they would surely have been nourished from above them and from beneath their feet. Among them there are people who are moderate, but many of them are of evil conduct."
-- Qur'an 5:66

Could it change? It certainly can, however that would require that Muhammads words be watered down or redefined...which is what a lot of modern clerics do. And this supports my original point that Islam cannot be fully practiced in western lands...it has to be diluted and changed in order to be compatible with western civilization.
in saying that, its commendable and admirable of Muslims willing to stand up and actually make those changes. In Australia they are called 'moderate Muslims' ... unfortunately they often get a lot of criticism from the rest of the Muslim community.

And Christianity was not watered down in order to bring the freedoms that we have?

The Bible has been used to further racism and slavery, and the position of women in church. And yet the very same Bible has been used against racism, slavery, and the emancipation of women! Canada, one of the safest countries in the world, had the Catholic French and the Protestant English to put aside their religious differences in order to give us the freedoms we now enjoy. And yet the United States of America, which have had Bible-based traditions for centuries, is considered the most arrogant and boastful place in the world.

 

[Pegg]

And where did the Inquisition, the Crusades, and all of supposed 'Christendom' get their ways of punishment from?

"You must not preserve a sorceress alive."
-- Exodus 22:18

"Let as many as are slaves under a yoke keep on considering their owners worthy of full honor, that the name of God and the teaching may never be spoken of injuriously. Moreover, let those having believing owners not look down on them, because they are brothers. On the contrary, let them the more readily be slaves, because those receiving the benefit of their good service are believers and beloved."
-- 1 Timothy 6:1-2

I would be completely afraid if certain Christian societies would come into power, as much as any evangelical or fanatical, strict religious authority. Under the Bible's authority, slavery would still have existed, as well as killing those who practice witchcraft, such as Wiccans or Neo-Pagans.

Your first scripture is from the Hebrew scriptures and the laws of Judaism. Christians were freed from following the Mosaic laws. They no longer had to adhere to corporal punishments and requirements of that law.
The law that Christians followed was 'The law of the Christ' which is completely different to the Mosaic laws. It was a law based on love....and your 2nd scripture shows that slave owners were to 'love' their slaves. A slave who was loved was not abused or beaten or treated badly....notice the verse says to treat them 'like a brother'

Muhammad actually instituted a system similar to the Mosaic laws of Judaism as the basis for his Quran. This is why corporal punishment is a part of the Quran but not a part of Christianity.

The Qur'an also speaks of how Christians have corrupted their Bible and follow an evil path:

"If they had observed the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto them from their Lord, they would surely have been nourished from above them and from beneath their feet. Among them there are people who are moderate, but many of them are of evil conduct."
-- Qur'an 5:66

Yep absolutely. The New Testament/Greek scriptures speak of exactly the same thing. Jesus and the Apostles warned christians that some from among them would rise up and 'speak twisted things'
Jesus fortold of a dark age when there would be trouble among christians. So yes, Muhammad was quite right in recognizing that fact about christians...especially in his day which was deep in the 'dark ages'

 

[Gaura Priya]

Your first scripture is from the Hebrew scriptures and the laws of Judaism. Christians were freed from following the Mosaic laws. They no longer had to adhere to corporal punishments and requirements of that law.
The law that Christians followed was 'The law of the Christ' which is completely different to the Mosaic laws. It was a law based on love....and your 2nd scripture shows that slave owners were to 'love' their slaves. A slave who was loved was not abused or beaten or treated badly....notice the verse says to treat them 'like a brother'

Muhammad actually instituted a system similar to the Mosaic laws of Judaism as the basis for his Quran. This is why corporal punishment is a part of the Quran but not a part of Christianity.

Actually, where is corporeal punishment in the Qur'an? Capital punishment is possible in the Qur'an... but flogging and stoning are not in the Qur'an.

"For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs of Allah's Sovereignty, but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth."
-- Qur'an 5:32

Also, although in the Qur'an, the institution of slavery is accepted, the freeing of slaves is better. Throughout the Qur'an, the freeing of slaves is a form of punishment, as well as under Allah's Guidance.

"It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God-fearing."
-- Qur'an 2:177

 

[fallingblood]

Ok. Let me agree with you here for a moment and say that it is only a small minority of muslims who participate in administering sharia law that calls for corporal punishment.... where do they get those laws from?

Does it matter? It's not from the Quran. And it doesn't reflect on Islam as a whole.

Perhaps you dont realise that the bible itself warns christians that their church was going to be hijacked and dominated by false teachers. These ones would lead christianity astray for a time...but later they would be revealed and true christians would break free of their hold. Jesus illustration of allowing the weeds and wheat grow together until the harvest described the condition of the church....there would be good and bad christians growing together until the harvest.

That simply doesn't work. It's simply a bad excuse. And if you can use an excuse like that for the Bible, then you have to allow it for the Quran. As the Quran never states that it will make everyone live in harmony.

Your Bible fails to do what you state is the reason why the Quran is not divinely inspired. The only logical conclusion, if you want to keep that idea, is that the Bible is not divinely inspired.

That sort of insight surely indicates that the bible is a divinely inspired book...if it were a book of men, why would they speak so honestly about the bad that was to come.
Although, this is kind of supports my point because christianity has shaped the western world to be a place of tolerance, freedom and human rights....even with many bad eggs in among them.

[/COLOR]

Not at all. You may want to learn a little more about the history of the Western World.

Also, I can name any number of books that say that we will face some bad situations. I can state that as well, and it's not divinely inspired. It's logical.

As for tolerance? Is it not Christians who will not tolerate homosexuals? Or many don't tolerate Muslims, or evolution? Or Jews?

Could it change? It certainly can, however that would require that Muhammads words be watered down or redefined...which is what a lot of modern clerics do. And this supports my original point that Islam cannot be fully practiced in western lands...it has to be diluted and changed in order to be compatible with western civilization.

It doesn't support your original point as you fail to recognize that Islam is fully compatible with Western Civilization. The fact that I was able to practice it fully proves you wrong. You simply don't understand Islam, and instead of actually trying to research it, you come at it in a very biased way.

As for being watered down, look at Christianity. Jesus specifically states that the laws of Moses were not to be abolished, but practiced even more strictly than the pharisees. Yet you are even guilty of stating that Mosiac law does not have to be followed.

By 'evils' do you mean things like terrorist activity?

I mean things such as the Crusades, Inquisition, or even today, terrorist activities.

I've been talking about penalties of Sharia law. The sort of pentalties that see women whipped for wearing trousers underneath their dresses, or adulterers stoned to death... these are the things im talking about. And if you have been talking about these things as 'evils' then where do these punishments come from? Is it not the Quran??

It is not from the Quran. Why? Because the majority of Muslims, especially modern Muslims, don't practice those barbaric ideas.

Also, you forget that Christians had similar punishments at one time as well.

 

[fallingblood]

The Qur'an or Koran contains many contents similarities to the Bible, which gives the idea that it was derived somehow from the Bible. The Bible however is the oldest book ever been written, the Qur'an isn't that old. Another interesting point is that the Qur'an contains several points were it invites the reader to consult the Bible. All in all a true Christian respects people from all backgrounds.

Not even close. All of the books of the Bible were not even completed until the end of the first century, early second century.

Even the Old Testament wasn't canonized until around 90 C.E. So no.

And if you read the Quran, you would know that it considers the Jewish and Christian scripture to have been inspired, but later corrupted.

Finally, making condescending remarks, or claiming that Muslims are following a book basically plagiarized is not very respectful.

 

[fallingblood]

Your first scripture is from the Hebrew scriptures and the laws of Judaism. Christians were freed from following the Mosaic laws. They no longer had to adhere to corporal punishments and requirements of that law.
The law that Christians followed was 'The law of the Christ' which is completely different to the Mosaic laws. It was a law based on love....and your 2nd scripture shows that slave owners were to 'love' their slaves. A slave who was loved was not abused or beaten or treated badly....notice the verse says to treat them 'like a brother'

Jesus never abolished the law. He never even claims that. He never claims that he freed his followers, who were Jews, from the law. That is an idea that originated some time later.

More so, Jesus specifically states that his followers are to follow the law even more strictly than the Pharisees.

Yep absolutely. The New Testament/Greek scriptures speak of exactly the same thing. Jesus and the Apostles warned christians that some from among them would rise up and 'speak twisted things'
Jesus fortold of a dark age when there would be trouble among christians. So yes, Muhammad was quite right in recognizing that fact about christians...especially in his day which was deep in the 'dark ages'

That is only logical. By the time the Gospels were being written, or even during Paul's time, there were already "false teachers." We know this because Paul himself states that. So of course, in the future, there would still be some. However, that is a lame attempt to try to defend Christianity.

 

[Pegg]

Actually, where is corporeal punishment in the Qur'an? Capital punishment is possible in the Qur'an... but flogging and stoning are not in the Qur'an.

Sura 24:2&4 'Flogging'
2. The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.


4. And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-



Surah 5: 'Execution and Amputation'

33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


38. As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.

45. We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

'Retaliation'
Quran 2:178 O you who believe, equivalence is the law decreed for you when dealing with murder - the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the female for the female. If one is pardoned by the victim's kin, an appreciative response is in order, and an equitable compensation shall be paid. This is an alleviation from your Lord and mercy.

 

[Pegg]

Jesus never abolished the law. He never even claims that. He never claims that he freed his followers, who were Jews, from the law. That is an idea that originated some time later.

Just as Moses was the mediator of the Law covenant which he instituded between God and the Isrealites, Jesus was the mediator of a covenant which he instituted between God and his followers. 'the New Covenant' is what he instituted with his apostles just as the prophet Jeremiah foretold at Jeremiah 31:31

The Messiah was always going to replace the mosaic law covenant because God was going to do away with sin....as the mosaic laws purpose was to remind people of their sins, it would make no sense keeping it in place forever because it highlighted sin. The Messiah was going to take the sin of the world away....this includes the very thing that highlighted that sin.

More so, Jesus specifically states that his followers are to follow the law even more strictly than the Pharisees.

Only in that mosaic laws show us Gods viewpoint on things. Paul said at Romans 7:7 Really I would not have come to know sin if it had not been for the Law; and, for example, I would not have known covetousness if the Law had not said: “You must not covet."

So yes, we need to know and live by Gods standards...the mosaic laws show us what Gods standards are... but the point is that we are not expected to perfectly abide by the mosaic law. Even the jews were not expected to do so perfectly, God gave them a means by which to be forgiven when they transgressed his standards showing that he makes allowances for our imperfection.

But the law was a 'covenant' between Israel and God which is what a lot of people misunderstand. It was never going to remain in place forever because God always intended on having a relationship with people from ALL nations. The covenant of Isreal signified their special standing... but the better covenant which Jeremiah foretold would be a covenant for ALL nations to participate in and this way the whole world of mankind could be reunited with God under his sovereignty.