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What do people think "atheist" means?

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Of course theists can have absences of belief. By definition, they cannot believe in the rival claims made by other heathen and heretic theologies that they don't ascribe to, correct? Or is (for instance) the Pope able to simultaneously believe the accepted Catholic hodgepodge and also accept the Islamic version of monotheism? Because if he isn't, then he does indeed have an absence of belief.
A theist is a person who believes in the existence of at least one god. it doesn't matter how many gods he doesn't believe in.
It isn't a rewrite in any way. It's merely a distinction regarding the nature of belief. Because one of the two can apparently believe without claiming to know. In fact, I'd argue that a theist who claims to know isn't exercising faith at all.
A theist who claims to know is a gnostic theist.
Anyway, if you're going to ascribe qualifiers to the atheist side of the equation, aren't you risking a false dichotomy (and perhaps accusations of special pleading) if you exempt the theistic side from the same qualifiers?
A theist only has a presence of belief that god(s) exist. A weak atheist has an absence of belief that gods exist. A strong atheist has a presence of belief that gods don't exist. A theist must have a presence of belief that at least one god exists. Would you please read a beginners book on atheism?
 
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NulliuSINverba

Active Member
An atheist is certainly one who doesn't believe god exists

That seems reasonably accurate. But which god, exactly? There are so many.

but this is because atheists believe god doesn't exist.

You lost me there. Why must you insist that just because a person is unconvinced regarding a proposition that they must therefore ascribe to it's opposite?

I'm not positively convinced regarding the existence of the Loch Ness Monster, but that doesn't mean I positively believe that it doesn't exist. Although it seems like a laughably remote possibility, it might exist. However, the evidence has not convinced me.

Agnostics don't make the latter epistemic claim.

Isn't that because Agnosticism is essentially a shrug regarding the proposition that one can know that god exists? Is there even anywhere in the Bible where Christians are expected to know that God exists? Or are they merely asked to believe?

One does not have to believe (or know) that God X necessarily doesn't exist to be an atheist. All that is required is to decide that the claims being made by God X's adherents regarding their deity's existence aren't convincing.
 

NulliuSINverba

Active Member
A theist is a person who believes in the existence of at least one god. it doesn't matter how many gods he doesn't believe in.

So if a person doesn't believe in 99 out 100 gods you don't see that as a glaring absence of belief? OK. You're entitled to your opinion and all of its sundry baggage. I will maintain that theists do indeed have absences of belief. In fact, monotheism by definition indicates a nearly airtight absence of belief.

A theist who claims to know is a gnostic theist.

Yes. I suppose that's so. But does knowledge count as faith? Would you care to cite a definition (or three) of faith that includes the notion of knowing?

A theist only has a presence of belief that god(s) exist.

What do you mean by "presence of belief?" What's wrong with good, old-fashioned belief?

And how would one test for the presence of belief? Does it involve antibodies?

A weak atheist has an absence of belief that gods exist.

Or maybe the presence of disbelief? Again ... I think the additional verbiage is silly, but if you must have it, have it.

Q. - What would you call a theist who rejected polytheism? Is that weak theism or strong theism?

A strong atheist has a presence of belief that gods don't exist.

Again, I think "Gnostic Atheist" is the more apt term. Because they're claiming that they know that gods do not (or in fact cannot) exist.

A theist must have a presence of belief that at least one god exists.

Actually, you're describing monotheism. There are many different flavors of theism. Of course, each variety insists that it's version is correct. In fact, the other versions likely don't even count as theism to other, rival theists .. do they? To call them theism would be to grant them an iota of legitimacy. Wouldn't they be described as "heresies" or "heathen faiths?"

Would you please read a beginners book on atheism?

I'm sorry. What possessed you to say that? It's the theists that need the book.

And again: If you're free to apply the "weak/strong" distinction to atheism, it follows that the same breakdown can be applied to theism. I'm not asking you to approve of it. Just expect it.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That seems reasonably accurate. But which god, exactly? There are so many.
The great thing about statements of the form that some person "doesn't believe in X" is that, for any term X (e.g., "god"), there exists no entity, thing, process, etc., that is X and that this person believes in. Even less formally, to not believe god exist simply requires that I believe nothing exists which I would say is god, and anything that I would say is god or a god is something I don't believe exists.

There are lots of descriptions of elves in various languages. To assert elves don't exist, you need not know of the Teleri or Noldor.



You lost me there. Why must you insist that just because a person is unconvinced regarding a proposition that they must therefore ascribe to it's opposite?
I don't. If one doesn't believe god exists but it is not true of this person to say that they believe god doesn't exist, they are not atheists (they are most likely agnostic).

I'm not positively convinced regarding the existence of the Loch Ness Monster, but that doesn't mean I positively believe that it doesn't exist.
You can remain unconvinced about the ontological status of god, the Loch Ness monster, big foot, etc., and yet believe that none of these exists as opposed to the agnostic position in which you assert merely that you don't know (you can make this more formal with belief functions or subjective probabilities, but the essence remains: if there exists enough evidence for you to conclude that you can say more that "I don't know", even if you don't actually know the truth based upon the evidence you need only evaluate it as sufficient to warrant a verdict; in this sense we might compare belief to a verdict or, as is done often in epistemology, the philosophy of probability, etc., to bets- juries don't actually know guilty parties but are asked to render a verdict in criminal trials based on whether the evidence is reasonably sufficient to "prove" guilt, while a rational gambler will not place a bet on the truth of the statement for which she has little cause to think is either true or false).

Although it seems like a laughably remote possibility, it might exist.
Almost the entire point of mental state predicates like "believe", and epistemic modality more generally, is to enable claims/assertions about what "is" or what is "true" without requiring that such statements be correct. Thus I can say that "I believe that whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you stranger" if in fact this is a position I support or regard as truth even though I can simultaneously state (truthfully) that I don't "know for a fact" that my position is true.



Isn't that because Agnosticism is essentially a shrug regarding the proposition that one can know that god exists?
Any proposition of the form "x knows y" isn't actually a proposition in logic (or rather, requires "deviant" logics for admission). Mental state predicates in general are not admitted as propositions. However, the pragmatic basis for the continued term that Huxley coined is not so much a certainty as to whether or not a statement about knowledge of god is impossible, but a subjective epistemological claim (namely, that one doesn't know whether god beliefs, or better yet one does not know enough given the evidence such that one would place wagers according to formal probabilities or game-theoretic systems involving rational payoffs).

Or are they merely asked to believe?
Belief that god exists isn't the same as knowing god exists, but because any belief claim is a claim to have knowledge we demarcate those whose belief claim is that god exists from those whose belief claim is that no god exists, and both from the position that one can only say they don't believe god exists, not that they believe god doesn't.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Did you look up the term "atheist" in the same dictionary?

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/atheist

"someone who believes that God does not exist"
Yes can you believe a dictionary can be so wrong? First they use the definition of a "strong atheist" to define just an atheist, and as if that wasn't bad enough they say it's "someone who believes that God does not exist" when everybody knows that a "strong atheist" is "someone who believes that gods do not exist." Plural. All gods. Not just "God". The writers should bow their heads in shame.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
So if a person doesn't believe in 99 out 100 gods you don't see that as a glaring absence of belief? OK. You're entitled to your opinion and all of its sundry baggage. I will maintain that theists do indeed have absences of belief. In fact, monotheism by definition indicates a nearly airtight absence of belief.
Since your ignorance of the subject is so great and you refuse to learn but just keep repeating the same nonsense it's a waste of time trying to explain anything to you so I won't answer your posts any longer.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Yes can you believe a dictionary can be so wrong? First they use the definition of a "strong atheist" to define just an atheist, and as if that wasn't bad enough they say it's "someone who believes that God does not exist" when everybody knows that a "strong atheist" is "someone who believes that gods do not exist." Plural. All gods. Not just "God". The writers should bow their heads in shame.
If that dictionary isn't right about atheism, how can you be so sure it's right about agnosticism?
 
Because I know what atheism and agnosticism is from having studied those subjects in depth for many years.

If that is true, don't you think that it is strange that the words started to be used differently when ideological atheists started to use them for ideological reasons?

Now people can't simply be agnostic any more, because an agnostic is actually an atheist, even if they don't want to be and consider it illogical.

Someone will post a chart and tell them, "see the chart tells you that you are an atheist, live with it. If you don't like it, I'm just going to have to repeat it until you finally 'get' it. Atheism is the default. default. default..."

Just so babies and rocks can be considered atheists, which is seen as some sort of tremendous validation of atheism, a new category of implicit atheism was created. The problem is claiming rocks are atheists is stupid, and amongst humans, how can you tell the difference between an implicit atheist and an implicit theist? If they can communicate whether or not they are an implicit atheist of theist, then they would no longer be an implicit atheist or theist but an explicit one.

What is the point of a category of atheism that contains rocks and people who may or may not actually even be atheists under your definition.

Feel free to keep using the definition yourself, but don't expect everyone to adopt an ideological redefinition that clearly makes the word far less useful than it previously was.

Unfortunately, 'new' atheists ruin atheism for the rest of us.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Because I know what atheism and agnosticism is from having studied those subjects in depth for many years.
If that's the case, why did you choose to disregard the definition of "agnostic" that was given by the person who coined the term?
 
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