What do you gain from criticism of a religious teaching you do not follow or believe in?

[F1fan]

I don't understand your question, can you elaborate a lil please?

You pointed out that a comment I made was my opinion.

Do you consider your belief in God also an opinion, or is it something else?

For example someone asks "Does Allah exist?" and in your opinion the answer is___

 

[MyM]

So there is no explanation for this prohibition? Muslims just have to follow the rule?

And you still haven't explained what the punishment is. Do Muslims not know what it is?

If God is OK with a person eating it accidentally it can't be that it's bad for you, yes?

Perhaps there was a reason in the 8th century to not eat pork and now in the 21st century it's safe.

In Islam, one does not make excuses for something that has already been ordained. Allah says it, we are to obey.

In saying that if one is forced to as a necessity, that is considered a mercy from Allah. If you cannot find anything else, to survive and not go hungry, He made it allowable to eat-but it must be in that type of scenario. It is a way out and a mercy .

 

[F1fan]

In Islam, one does not make excuses for something that has already been ordained. Allah says it, we are to obey.

In saying that if one is forced to as a necessity, that is considered a mercy from Allah. If you cannot find anything else, to survive and not go hungry, He made it allowable to eat-but it must be in that type of scenario. It is a way out and a mercy .

That seems fair enough. I certainly would consider the lack of an explanation to be problematic for me.

 

[MyM]

You pointed out that a comment I made was my opinion.

Do you consider your belief in God also an opinion, or is it something else?

For example someone asks "Does Allah exist?" and in your opinion the answer is___

My belief in Allah is firm. It isn't an opinion, it is a fact that I believe in.

 

[MyM]

That seems fair enough. I certainly would consider the lack of an explanation to be problematic for me.

There is nothing more to explain Maybe because your lack of understanding it, isn't my lacking of explaining it. It's very simple. Allah said not to eat pork-we don't eat it. The different scenarios that are laid out are straightforward and helpful-if it is there if your life is depending upon it for survival. Allah is just.

 

[F1fan]

My belief in Allah is firm. It isn't an opinion, it is a fact that I believe in.

We don't have to believe in facts. Facts are easily verifiable by any mind.

So how is Allah a fact? Or do you mean you BELIEVE it's a fact, and you could be mistaken?

 

[F1fan]

There is nothing more to explain Maybe because your lack of understanding it, isn't my lacking of explaining it. It's very simple. Allah said not to eat pork-we don't eat it. The different scenarios that are laid out are straightforward and helpful-if it is there if your life is depending upon it for survival. Allah is just.

This is why I feel comfortable rejecting this idea of God and its rules. I have more freedom.

 

[MyM]

We don't have to believe in facts. Facts are easily verifiable by any mind.

So how is Allah a fact? Or do you mean you BELIEVE it's a fact, and you could be mistaken?

You are an athiest?

I will not debate with athiest in this thread.

I stated what I have said and you can either believe it or not.

 

[MyM]

This is why I feel comfortable rejecting this idea of God and its rules. I have more freedom.

You are entitled to believe anyway you wish. Freedom isn't necessarily a good thing, but I wish you the best.

 

[F1fan]

You are entitled to believe anyway you wish.

I know this already, as do millions of other free thinkers.

Freedom isn't necessarily a good thing,

Why not? Explain what you mean.

but I wish you the best.

Thanks. You too.

 

[F1fan]

You are an athiest?

I am.

I will not debate with athiest in this thread.

Well, it's kind of like you eating pork. Too late

I stated what I have said and you can either believe it or not.

That is why I am an atheist, I have the intellectual freedom to question religious ideas.

 

[osgart]

Some people like me are trying to recover from the horrible religions we were brought up in. Criticism helps when it has merit to it.

 

[RestlessSoul]

As long atheists bias against believers, I will keep biase toward certain atheists, I will not let them rest.

The question is though, who needs the rest? I gave up responding to the tiresome atheist crusaders on here, because a) you can't hold a meaningful discussion with a mind slammed shut, and b) if I let them make me angry, that's on me not them.

 

[RestlessSoul]

That is why I am an atheist, I have the intellectual freedom to question religious ideas.

Everyone does.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

challenging in a debate forum fine, but most insult, degrade and mock and disrespect

"most"?

So, the majority, as in > 50%, of posts that challenge religious views, do that?
In that case, you should have no problem giving me a couple of links to post where this is occurring.
Could you please do so?

and if you come back with something they don't like (talkin majority of athiests) they call you names and use sarcasm as if that person doesn't exist and is stupid. To me, that is not what a debate forum is supposed to uphold.

changing views fine, insulting them is not.

Here's my understanding of this...........

The religious, especially those with fundamentalistic tendencies, are extremely quick to cry "insult" and "disrespect" whenever their religious views are questioned in otherwise perfectly reasonable terms.

They also tend to take any criticism of their religion or their beliefs as personal insults, while in reality they are just criticism of the BELIEFS and not of the person holding the beliefs.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Oh you can ask questions, but drop the harrasment,

What "harrasment"?
Can you give an example post where I supposedly engage in that?

You are making accusations here. It's only fair for me to ask you to provide evidence for those accusations.

ill intention coments about religious books

What do you mean by that?
If I say for example that the bible is vile book because it condones slavery and calls for the execution of homosexuals who have sex, does that then qualify as "ill intention comments"?

, or religious people.

Don't confuse criticism of religion with criticism of people believing those religions though.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I certainly would consider the lack of an explanation to be problematic for me.

Same here. This sort of blind obedience to what seems arbitrary rules, is imo extremely dangerous.
This is how you get people to engage in gruesome horrible acts with them not questioning it at all.
As long as they believe that it was "ordained" by this perceive authority, then they just accept it no further questions asked, regardless of the underlying motivations or reasoning.


I'ld even say that it is very irresponsible to live your life like that.
To me, such is the epitome of moral bankrupcy.

And no, that is not an "insult".

 

[RestlessSoul]

If I say for example that the bible is vile book because it condones slavery and calls for the execution of homosexuals who have sex, does that then qualify as "ill intention comments"?

I think it's fair to say that your choice of words here make your intentions absolutely clear.

 

[PureX]

Frankly I don't see how the WHY of everything religious can be explained except by science. I've engaged with many, many theists ov er the decades who know what they believe, but have no real clue why they believe it. This is what I find most interesting, is the religious person being asked questions they don't ask themselves.

Yes. Because it's not about the why, to them. It's about the how. You and I ask about the whys because that's what we care about. It's how we think. It's how we move through the world, conceptually. But not everyone thinks like this. Nor are they 'supposed' to. Some people think by rote. A lot of them, in fact. It's how they move through the world, conceptually. Others do it by instinct, and intuition. They don't ask 'why', because they don't care why. They're just getting from point A to point B in life.

Yet most theists DO think their beliefs represent reality even though under scrutiny the ideas are typical contradictory to what we do know of reality.

Under YOUR method of scrutiny. But not by their method of moving through the world. By their method, what they believe, works, and that's all that matters. It's why they believe it.

Religious faith is notoriously unreliable yet theists keep falling back on it to justify their beliefs.

You're only saying that because you are applying your standard of reliability to someone else's method of moving through the world. That's not very logical, though, is it. It's mostly just egocentric.

I'm not that kind of theist, either. But over the years, as I have confronted these same issues with it as you, I have come to realize that I'm not in charge of how the rest of humanity chooses to move through the world. My way isn't even the best way. It's just mine. You think science and reason are the only 'right' way to move through the world, but they aren't. As an artist I have known this for a many years. Subjective intuition is a fantastic method of moving through the world, and is often far faster and more effective than plodding reason and experimentation. So is living by rote in many instances. It's why people in so many different life endeavors train for it.

As an artist I had to learn to try not to be so myopic, and to let myself use these other methods of moving through the world when they worked better. And they do work better, quite often. You'd be surprised.

 

[PureX]

In a sense, yes. What I am saying is that I have nothing to offer someone who decides what's true about the world using faith, and have given up trying. All I can offer is reason applied to evidence.

They have something valuable to offer you, however. If you could put your own ego aside long enough to let yourself see it. Your method of moving through the world is not the only one. And is not even the best one in many instances. They could help you to see some others that work better.

What an odd thing for you to say to me. Understanding how people think is a passion and an avocation of mine. The post you responded to should serve as evidence of that.

I think you're trying to fit their way of thinking into your way of understanding the world. And that's why is not working. It's also why you aren't really learning anything about them. And why it appears that you don't care about them.

I am not interested in faith-based thought except as a subject to study to better understand how people who rely on it cognate.

Yes, I can see that. And it's why you're never going to understand it. And that's your loss, believe it or not.

I have been very interested in how you think, and have come to some tentative conclusions, but they're not things I feel comfortable discussing with you without your permission. It's not harsh, and you might even agree, but the point is, I am very interested in how people think including you.

I live in a complex and confusing world, and use whatever methods seem to help me get the job done. I'm an artist, so faith, and intuition, and instinct, and rote, and reason, are all just tools in the box. No one is right or wrong. They're just useful or not depending of what I'm trying to do.

I don't know what you're referring to. No patience or kindness is needed to communicate with me...

You'd be surprised. I think we all do.

I define faith as unjustified belief...

How convenient for your bias!

When you refer to materialism or scientism, I always understand that as an objection to the critical thinker's insistence on empiricism being the sole path to useful knowledge about the world as I just described in the spoiler above.

Yes, and it's a very tiresome and blinding bias that you're going to refuse to let go of long enough to actually learn anything different.