What do you know about God?

[PearlSeeker]

Yes, it really is a cultural thing (and a philosophical thing, I suppose, if one wants to take that angle). What constitutes a "person" - an agent worthy of ethical consideration - is not a scientific question. If you haven't studied environmental ethics or animism or indigenous religions just in general, this way of thinking and this language is probably unfamiliar to you. I'm not sure where the best place would be for a crash course, but I suppose there are worse places than this:

Personhood - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Animism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Environmental ethics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Environmental entity seems to be only a legal term for ecological purposes - not real personhood. I don't think that only living beings in ecosystem are worthy of preservation and ethical consideration. No animism necessary for ecological awareness, kindness to animals, careful treatment...

 

[Quintessence]

Environmental entity seems to be only a legal term for ecological purposes - not real personhood. I don't think that only living beings in ecosystem are worthy of preservation and ethical consideration. No animism necessary for ecological awareness, kindness to animals, careful treatment...

Sorry, I don't follow on two counts:

• Where did I say that animism was necessary for any of these things?
• What, precisely is "real personhood" and why do you get to decide that for everyone?
  • [Spoiler - you don't get to decide that for everyone... and that's exactly why I am saying this is a cultural thing]

 

[CG Didymus]

Which one?

That's the thing... LH was trying to say that no matter what religion or belief that everyone is in reality praying to and worshipping the same God. My argument against was that if a religion is defining their God different than another religion, then it is not the same God.

That carries over to this thread also. If some Hindus have three Gods and tell us things about them, then it is not the same as when a Baha'i tell us about what they "know" about God.

Then with the belief that many Christians hold that God is a three in one trinity, Baha'is flat out call that wrong and a misinterpretation. And that the Christian God is really only one. And that Jesus is not God... that he is the next closest thing, a manifestation of God.

But of course, there's the same old problem, each religion believes something about God but can't prove it. So, it's just which religion, which scriptures and which God a person decides to believe in. And I'm sure each person "knows" that their God is real.

 

[blü 2]

Many people believe in God but what do they know about Him? How did you come to know what you know about God? How did you verify what you know about God or discovered? Was it through a dream? A Book or a personal experience or just from following tradition? How do you know what you believe about God is true? Atheists feel free to comment but this is not a ‘prove God exists‘ thread.

Given there's a God, who says ─

there's only one God​

that God is the Abrahamic God​

God is all-powerful​

God is all-knowing​

God is present everywhere​

God is humanoid​

God is male​

God is benevolent​

God acts in the real world​

God answers prayers at a rate greater than random results would produce​

God's morality is our morality​

God is responsible for good things that happen in reality​

God is not responsible for bad things that happen in reality​

?

 

[PearlSeeker]

Where did I say that animism was necessary for any of these things?

Sorry, maybe I misunderstood you when you said:... a "person" - an agent worthy of ethical consideration ...

What, precisely is "real personhood" and why do you get to decide that for everyone?

You posted a link about environmental entities - when a part of nature (for example river) was granted "legal personhood" or "legal rights".

Do you think a car is also a person if some legal authority grants it rights?

 

[danieldemol]

Has anyone else had a whine about the false trichotomy in the poll yet or is it just me?

 

[Psalm23]

Many people believe in God but what do they know about Him? How did you come to know what you know about God? How did you verify what you know about God or discovered? Was it through a dream? A Book or a personal experience or just from following tradition? How do you know what you believe about God is true? Atheists feel free to comment but this is not a ‘prove God exists‘ thread.

I know that God loves me and that God loves everyone. I cannot comprehend God in His glory but I know my hope is in Him.

 

[Quintessence]

Sorry, maybe I misunderstood you when you said:... a "person" - an agent worthy of ethical consideration ...


You posted a link about environmental entities - when a part of nature (for example river) was granted "legal personhood" or "legal rights".

Do you think a car is also a person if some legal authority grants it rights?

If you wish to start a thread about animism, please feel free to do so and tag me - we are really derailing the thread here. There are some other members I would recommend tagging but since they may not wish to be dragged into this, I'll refrain from naming names.

But the short answer is no - as an animist, I really do not care what some "legal authority" does or doesn't grant because that is independent of my religion. Keep in mind Schmukipedia is just a starting point for exploring topics - I didn't post any of that with the intention of it being thorough. In all honesty, it would be better to check out a copy of "Spell of the Sensuous" by David Abram or "Braiding Sweetgrass" by Robin Wall Kimmer or "Animism: Respecting the Living World" by Graham Harvey if you really want a good window into these things. Regardless, this is getting way off topic so I won't be responding to further questions about it in this thread unless it directly pertains to the thread topic about knowing the gods/spirits.

 

[F1fan]

I know nothing about god(s) - and neither does anybody else.

The question as posed assumes gods exist and asks believers of whatever version they belive exists how it's known. It's a trick question. We can explain what we know about Hobbits from a series of books. We can also explain what we know about the God of Abraham from various books, and this will differ greatly among Jews, Christians, Muslims, JWs, Mormons, Baha'i, and Urantia folks, etc. Scholars can describe this God from various sources and have different conclusions, like the Old Testament, versus the New Testament, versus the Mormon Bible, versus the Urantia Book, versus the Baha'i texts. There's no definitive conclusiuon of the "one true God".

If 20 people were asked what they know about one of their neighbors it will be a fairly consistent description. But not with God, something many claim to interact with (after reading descriptions in books).

So we can know about gods as ideas, but as an independent entity? That's where the real question is, to my mind.

 

[Trailblazer]

I know that God loves me and that God loves everyone. I cannot comprehend God in His glory but I know my hope is in Him.

I know that too, in my mind, but sometimes there is an emotional disconnect when I see all the suffering in the world.

 

[Ds83]

"The English word 'god' first came into use through a German term applied in the 6th-century Christian Codex Argenteus, gudan ("to call" or "to invoke" a power). In Western traditions, 'God' is the God of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam."

I know nothing at all about this.

"Siva" on the other hand ... (very different paradigms)

It comes from Gautaz a word applied to Odin and seen in the tribe known as the Goths.
Odin was also called Goden by the lombards.

 

[Sand Dancer]

I know quite a bit about the Hebrew god, but only a minimal amount about a few other gods and nothing about the rest.

 

[Will Due]

The following is from the Urantia Book and in my experience, rather sums up the essence of the questions posed in the OP of this thread:

Paper 102 - The Foundations of Religious Faith
102:6:5 (1124.7) The God-knowing soul dares to say, “I know,” even when this knowledge of God is questioned by the unbeliever who denies such certitude because it is not wholly supported by intellectual logic. To every such doubter the believer only replies, “How do you know that I do not know?”

 

[danieldemol]

The following is from the Urantia Book and in my experience, rather sums up the essence of the questions posed in the OP of this thread:

Paper 102 - The Foundations of Religious Faith
102:6:5 (1124.7) The God-knowing soul dares to say, “I know,” even when this knowledge of God is questioned by the unbeliever who denies such certitude because it is not wholly supported by intellectual logic. To every such doubter the believer only replies, “How do you know that I do not know?”

The answer to your question is that knowledge is typically defined as justified true belief. Therefore since you acknowledge that you cannot justify it using intellectual logic (there is no other kind of logic by the way) it is simply not knowledge and therefore you dont know in my view.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The following is from the Urantia Book and in my experience, rather sums up the essence of the questions posed in the OP of this thread:

Paper 102 - The Foundations of Religious Faith
102:6:5 (1124.7) The God-knowing soul dares to say, “I know,” even when this knowledge of God is questioned by the unbeliever who denies such certitude because it is not wholly supported by intellectual logic. To every such doubter the believer only replies, “How do you know that I do not know?”

This is good solace for people who consider it a significant upgrade to go from "what you're saying is baloney" to "what you're saying is not necessarily baloney, but is indistinguishable from baloney."

 

[RestlessSoul]

The answer to your question is that knowledge is typically defined as justified true belief. Therefore since you acknowledge that you cannot justify it using intellectual logic (there is no other kind of logic by the way) it is simply not knowledge and therefore you dont know in my view.

You haven’t answered the question. You haven’t even addressed it.

The question is not “how do you know what you know?”, but rather, “how do you know what another doesn’t know?”

Since knowledge is acquired through experience, you cannot, (at least not without calling them a liar) dismiss what another claims to know, unless you have had a similar experience.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You haven’t answered the question. You haven’t even addressed it.

The question is not “how do you know what you know?”, but rather, “how do you know what another doesn’t know?”

One way: you look at the fruits. You think about what observable things ought to be true if the person has the knowledge they claim, and then look for them.

If someone says that they know how to turn farts into gold but they're perpetually broke, they probably don't know how to do this.

Someone who says they know the secret to inner peace ought not to be making angry rants online. Someone who claims they know the way to achieve eternal life ought not to fear death. Someone who claims to know how to heal the sick ought to be able to do better than chance in a randomized controlled trial of disease outcomes.

Since knowledge is acquired through experience, you cannot, (at least not without calling them a liar) dismiss what another claims to know, unless you have had a similar experience.

Not necessarily a liar; people can be honestly mistaken.

Acquiring knowledge from experience is a three step process:

1. I have experience A.
2. From experience A, I infer knowledge B.
3. Therefore, I know B is true.

Some people who really do satisfy step A absolutely suck at logical inference and go completely off the rails in step 2 and 3 and end up making conclusions that aren't justified by what they actually experienced. The good news, though: absolutely anyone can just take experience A as a given and figure out if it implies B.

All that aside, liars do exist, and charlatans often take advantage of unverifiable claims. If there are strong indications that someone is lying, we shouldn't be afraid to call this out.

 

[RestlessSoul]

One way: you look at the fruits. You think about what observable things ought to be true if the person has the knowledge they claim, and then look for them.

If someone says that they know how to turn farts into gold but they're perpetually broke, they probably don't know how to do this.

Someone who says they know the secret to inner peace ought not to be making angry rants online. Someone who claims they know the way to achieve eternal life ought not to fear death. Someone who claims to know how to heal the sick ought to be able to do better than chance in a randomized controlled trial of disease outcomes.



Not necessarily a liar; people can be honestly mistaken.

Acquiring knowledge from experience is a three step process:

1. I have experience A.
2. From experience A, I infer knowledge B.
3. Therefore, I know B is true.

Some people who really do satisfy step A absolutely suck at logical inference and go completely off the rails in step 2 and 3 and end up making conclusions that aren't justified by what they actually experienced. The good news, though: absolutely anyone can just take experience A as a given and figure out if it implies B.

All that aside, liars do exist, and charlatans often take advantage of unverifiable claims. If there are strong indications that someone is lying, we shouldn't be afraid to call this out.

Ye shall know them by their fruits; yes, absolutely. Every good tree bringeth forth good fruit.

I’d be wary of holding people to unrealistic standards though; and it’s unrealistic to expect anyone to become a saint or bodhisattva overnight, by virtue of a life changing spiritual experience. The most fruitful comparison concerning such a person, might be with the person they were before they claim to have had their epiphany.

And yes, of course their are liars and charlatans. Thousands of them, always. They appear as sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. And they do seem to thrive in America, for some reason unbeknown to me.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ye shall know them by their fruits; yes, absolutely. Every good tree bringeth forth good fruit.

I’d be wary of holding people to unrealistic standards though; and it’s unrealistic to expect anyone to become a saint or bodhisattva overnight, by virtue of a life changing spiritual experience.

I would still expect a statistically significant difference in the averages between purported saints and the general population on something measurable.

The most fruitful comparison concerning such a person, might be with the person they were before they claim to have had their epiphany.

This comparison would be about improved behaviour? I don't see why that would work. You're talking about someone changing, basically all at once, their:

- peer group
- weekly routine
- attitudes
- diet (potentially)

... in addition to any potential change in their knowledge.

You need to isolate the variable to figure out its effects.

And yes, of course their are liars and charlatans. Thousands of them, always. They appear as sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. And they do seem to thrive in America, for some reason unbeknown to me.

They do come in handy, since someone exercising motivated reasoning about the "sheep" can always claim that the sample was contaminated by "wolves" if the results don't work out the way they want.

 

[dfnj]

Many people believe in God but what do they know about Him? How did you come to know what you know about God? How did you verify what you know about God or discovered? Was it through a dream? A Book or a personal experience or just from following tradition? How do you know what you believe about God is true? Atheists feel free to comment but this is not a ‘prove God exists‘ thread.

All I know is God is just a word. What the word means is irrelevant because the meaning of the word God only exists in people's imaginations. When I hold and apple in my hand I say "apple". I cannot do the same thing with "God". As a result, what is an apple is clearly defined. Whereas each person on earth has their on unique definition for the word God.