Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Keeping the sabbath is described as a sign in the books of Moses. Constantine instituted Sunday as a day of rest in relation to the "venerable sun" of Constantine's cult of Sol Invictus.
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What do you think of Paul the Apostle?
- Thread starter Starlight
- Start date
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
He's extremely legalist about it in the OT.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Yeah, but seems opposed to legalistic stuff in the NT.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
And YHWH said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
Numbers 15:32-35
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Not really.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 5:18
But ...
And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Mark 2:24-28
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
That would depend on how Christianity is defined. The text of Acts 11:26 implies that Paul's doctrine was an element of that core doctrine of Christianity, so in that sense Paul did not derail Christianity.
Christianity is sometimes described as being based on the teachings of Jesus Christ, so in that sense it would be fair to say that Paul derailed Christianity in relation to the teachings relating to the law and to idolatry.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I get so weary of the continual misunderstanding of the place of Constantine. In short, he was never a Christian bishop, so he had absolutely no say in determining Christian orthodoxy. He was a secular emperor who didn't even become a Christian until he was near death.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Jesus was still an acting, living Jew at the time. He had not died and risen yet. Also, he was a practical man. For instance, the story of the disciples in Luke 6 and Him healing on the Sabbath in Mark 3.
Also, Mark 2:27, 28.
BrightShadow
Active Member
I don't want to spend too much time on this. Christians need to figure it out by themselves.
If hearts are open - eyes will see!
The concept of "Resurrection" was introduced by Paul (who never saw Jesus in person. He claimed to have seen Jesus in a dream! Anyone can claim that!
(2 Timothy 2:8) " Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel,
Paul and Companions and his buddies were also the first ones to declare Jesus as the son of God:
[Acts 9:20] "At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God. 21 All those who heard him were astonished....."
That is why I say - anyone claiming to be a Christian (in today's world) is actually following Paul's teaching. They are not following Jesus. IMO
Paul changed fundamental teachings of Jesus. He introduced "resurrection" and "divinity" of Jesus into Christianity. Paul also discarded other basic ritual practices such as "circumcision" that Jew men were performing and later adopted back by Muslim men due to teachings of Muhammad.
It was in the Genesis and later reinstated by Muhammad as it can be found in the Sunnah. But Paul in the middle - took it out!
[Genesis 17:9-14] 9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised,.......... My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”
Paul got rid of circumcision in two steps.
First, Paul spoke indifferently about circumcision, which was/is a sacred Jewish ritual. Here it sounds like a choice!
[1 Corinthians 7:19] 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts.
But later he went to the extent of openly condemning such practice.
[Galatians 5:2] Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.
All Christians should be aware that Jesus himself was circumcised! So, what authority did Paul have to gradually change that?
This is why I tell all Christian men who are not circumcised - you have deviated from following God's command by Paul. According to Genesis 17:9-14 - you have broken your agreement with God! You are not following Jesus Christ teachings. You are following Paul (the short bald guy with weird eye brows!)
What kind of guy was he? He robbed churches? Look at this..
[2 Corinthians 11:8] "I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service."
Paul also generated this new concept that following Mosaic law was no longer necessary as faith in Jesus alone is enough for salvation! That deserves a drum roll from the devil's camp!
If this short bald man with weird eye brows was here today - then every Christian should ask him - why Jesus spend the best years of his life preaching what to do and what to refrain from if faith is enough? Why Jesus said he didn't come to take away any laws? Why Jesus said - in order to enter God's kingdom one must do what God in heaven wants?
The naïve idea that a mere belief in Jesus automatically guarantees one's place in heaven is in contradiction to the teachings of Jesus as [Matthew 7:21] clearly shows and it makes sense!
[Mathew 7:21] "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
So, the Christians cannot stop following the commandments. But Paul said they can!
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BrightShadow
Active Member
That is kind of circular reasoning! Acts implies this but you are forgetting - what Acts implies is bias!
Luke, St. Luke, Physician Luke whatever you want to call him was a companion of Paul.
Acts was written so that fellow Christians might believe that Pauline Christianity was the true conception of the gospel, and that so believing they might continue to abide therein.
It was a teamwork to derail Christianity!
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BrightShadow
Active Member
Emperor Constantine had a Pagan background who continued to adhere to some of his pagan beliefs and practices even after his conversion. He was a Roman Emperor who unified paganism and Christianity and opened the floodgates of spiritual compromise.
Emperor Constantine convened the first council of Nicaea (A.D. 325). He invited all the Bishops. The bishops decided and established the equality of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in the Holy Trinity and asserted that only the Son became incarnate as Jesus Christ.
The concept of "Trinity" was indorsed!
This concept of "Trinity" is a multi god concept. This is a direct result of the so-called compromise that was floating in the air during the ruling of Emperor Constantine.
So, if you are looking for direct evidence of conversation between the Bishops and Emperor Constantine in an audio or video recording then I have to inform you - the technology wasn't invented at that time. So, it is not available to the extent you are looking for. However, the evidence of influence is clear when you check the history.
Emperor or someone in power does not need to be directly involved in the discussions and meetings during debates. His representatives do the work for him! After centuries of persistent persecution - to many of those Bishops - the compromises they were to make - felt like a welcome escape from the relentless campaign of bloodshed they previously endured!. So, the creed was stamped sealed and delivered without much protest!
What happened to the Bishops who dissented? Constantine ordered them to be exiled. Their signatures are not there.
History is written by the ruling party. So, you probably won't find what happened to them.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
It was never unlawful to heal on the Sabbath via prayer. Nor do you seem to have any concept of the Jewish interpretation that laws are to be set aside if the life of another is at stake, and its spinoffs. Jewish doctors work in hospitals on the Sabbath all the time.
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IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Exactly! Right on! Christians need to pay more attention to this, and correct their misunderstanding.
Yeap. Christians are completely unaware of the Jewish teaching that laws are to be set aside if the life of another is at stake, and its spinoffs. Jewish doctors work in hospitals on the Sabbath all the time.
Pretty much the same thing we read in the Talmud. "It [the Sabbath] is committed to your hands, not you to its hands." (R. Jonathan ben Joseph, Yoma 85a)
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IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
This seems to say that Constantine caused the synthesis of paganism and Christianity. It's simply not true. As I stated before, since he was not a Bishop, he had NO say in Christian theologies or traditions.
Yes, the BISHOPS did this, not Constantine.
Again, NOBODY who was not a bishop had a say in the teachings of the Church, even the Emperor, not at Nicea, not anywhere.
Constantine was actually in favor of Arianism. In fact, on his deathbed, the Bishop who baptized him was an Arian bishop. So did he get his way at Nicea? No, he utterly lost.
As for his exiling of Arians, it simply supported the Empire to cooperate with the bishops. It was a practicle thing. It's no different than how the US government legalit recognises marriages that were actually done as religious services.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
The story of the crucifixion and resurrection is a development of the "smite the shepherd" theme from Zechariah 13:7. In the previous verse there is a description of an injury which could have seemed to be due to crucifixion, but wasn't. The chapter has text which relates to a remedy for sin and uncleanness, and to prophecy, and idolatry. These themes connect with the high priest Yeshua in Zechariah 3.
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Ebionite
Well-Known Member
AFAIK there is no reason to think that Luke was dishonest. The focus of Acts did transition to support a Pauline focus, but Luke's reporting of the account of Paul being called mad by Festus suggests that Paul didn't have any editorial role in relation to Luke's work.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
OK whatever you say. Not going to argue about it with you.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Hey, all I know is that the Pharisees called Jesus out on it at the time. I think they were trying to catch Him.