What do you think of Purgatory?

[URAVIP2ME]

................Origen of Alexandria ( c. 185 – c. 253), also known as Origen Adamantius, was an early Christian scholar, ascetic, and theologian who was born and spent the first half of his career in Alexandria. What a "pity" that we haven't got his original works .. we only have Latin translations, that we know have been altered. Some Roman Emperors ordered 1000's of texts to be destroyed.However, they can't stop God establishing the truth in the world. You merely follow the rhetoric that the Roman Empire enforced.The belief that Jesus is a created being, was not only believed by Arius .. millions of Christians believed that, and they were persecuted and slaughtered. ..and then came the Qur'an .. that tells us exactly the same thing...............l !

Christian writer apostle John wrote that pre-human heavenly Jesus was created - Revelation 3:14 B. Psalms 90:2 only God was 'before' the beginning whereas heavenly Jesus was "IN" the beginning but Never 'before' the beginning.
Arius taught: God is un-begotten and without a beginning. The Son, because he is begotten can not be God in the sense that the Father is. The Son did Not exist from all eternity but was created and exists by the will of The Father.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

..............................URAVIP2ME Every person has a spirit when their spirit leaves them, their body dies! Evil spirit can enter a person the body/flesh is the home of the spirit! The body will be destroyed the spirit cannot die! Evil Spirits leave a body and then search for another to live in the spirit stays alive>> Forever! Satan is Spirit NO Flesh!
The body dies but the spirit will live... In heaven God will give us back our body those in Hell the home of Satan they will remain Evil Spirits! All in Satan's home have perished they are just spirit!...................

ALL of Adam came from the dust of the ground and ALL of Adam ' returned ' to dust - Genesis 3:19
All of Adam arrived back 'returning' to just where he started
All angels are mortal spirit persons. Adam nor Eve were never a spirit person.
Yes, angelic Satan is NO flesh but a mortal spirit person.
God is a Spirit person and God sent pre-human heavenly spirit-person Jesus to Earth for us. Jesus did Not send himself.
As far as our spirit is concerned it is a neuter "it" according to Ecclesiastes 12:7
( This is also true of animal life. Same outcome. Animals like people go to one place - Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 )
People do Not turn into any angel spirit persons.
People are resurrected as either saints/holy ones, or have a physical resurrection back to live fleshly life. - Acts 24:15

Everlasting Life was offered to mortal Adam. Mortal Satan and all angels were also offered everlasting life.
Everlasting life for mortal Satan and mortal angels is everlasting life in Heaven.
In other words, living forever either in Heaven or on Earth was on condition of righteous behavior.
Righteous behavior for those already living in Heaven.
Righteous behavior for those (Adam and Eve) living on Earth.
There were rebels in Heaven starting with sinner Satan.
There are rebels on Earth starting with sinner Adam.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yes, we are all accountable and that is why we die..

Really?
..so somebody who dies in a motor accident dies because we are "accountable", and somehow, when Jesus returns, we can no longer have an accident or heart-attack and what not?

No, no .. it's all dreaming and falsehood.

 

[muhammad_isa]

heavenly Jesus was "IN" the beginning but Never 'before' the beginning..

What beginning exactly?

The Son did Not exist from all eternity but was created and exists by the will of The Father.

..and that is obviously correct.
Nothing happens without the will of "the Father" .. because "the Father" is God, the Most High.
There is only One God, and "the Son" is a man .. not an ordinary man .. a "son of God" is not an ordinary man . but an extraordinary man, chosen by God .. Jesus is the Messiah sent by God .. he is not God .. he did not send himself.

If one wants to say that Jesus existed for eternity, that might be correct, as we ALL might have existed for eternity .. our spirits belong to God, and are not necessarily manufactured in a "spirits factory".

 

[Dogknox20]

That is what you are supposed to believe..
..and what do you know about Origen

Origen of Alexandria ( c. 185 – c. 253), also known as Origen Adamantius, was an early Christian scholar, ascetic, and theologian who was born and spent the first half of his career in Alexandria.

What a "pity" that we haven't got his original works .. we only have Latin translations, that we know have been altered. Some Roman Emperors ordered 1000's of texts to be destroyed.
However, they can't stop God establishing the truth in the world.
You merely follow the rhetoric that the Roman Empire enforced.

The belief that Jesus is a created being, was not only believed by Arius .. millions of Christians believed that, and they were persecuted and slaughtered.
..and then came the Qur'an .. that tells us exactly the same thing.


..and they did not have to make trouble, in "deciding" what God is or isn't. It was political in nature.


No .. the Romans did not want that .. they destroyed the temple that Jesus used to attend.


Yes .. God can do anything He wants .. but why He would pretend to be a man, and get killed purposely, I cannot make any sense of at all !

.
muhammad_isa Christians believe "Jesus is God" they always have believed Jesus is God!!
The Anti-Christ is anti-Christian because Christians are Christ Followers!
There is no Anti-Muhammad
There is no Anti-Hindu
No Anti-Budha
No Anti Krishna
etc
Satan hates Christians because he hates truth! All other are doing the work of Satan thus there is only anti-Christ!
Jesus is God as clearly stated in the holy Scriptures!
John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

 

[Dogknox20]

ALL of Adam came from the dust of the ground and ALL of Adam ' returned ' to dust - Genesis 3:19
All of Adam arrived back 'returning' to just where he started
All angels are mortal spirit persons. Adam nor Eve were never a spirit person.
Yes, angelic Satan is NO flesh but a mortal spirit person.
God is a Spirit person and God sent pre-human heavenly spirit-person Jesus to Earth for us. Jesus did Not send himself.
As far as our spirit is concerned it is a neuter "it" according to Ecclesiastes 12:7
( This is also true of animal life. Same outcome. Animals like people go to one place - Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 )
People do Not turn into any angel spirit persons.
People are resurrected as either saints/holy ones, or have a physical resurrection back to live fleshly life. - Acts 24:15

Everlasting Life was offered to mortal Adam. Mortal Satan and all angels were also offered everlasting life.
Everlasting life for mortal Satan and mortal angels is everlasting life in Heaven.
In other words, living forever either in Heaven or on Earth was on condition of righteous behavior.
Righteous behavior for those already living in Heaven.
Righteous behavior for those (Adam and Eve) living on Earth.
There were rebels in Heaven starting with sinner Satan.
There are rebels on Earth starting with sinner Adam.

Adam came to life when God put his spirit into him!
All life is because of God!
When Adam died God did not, the spirit returned to God! When you die it is because your spirit has left you!
There are Ghosts & there are evil spirits. The Spirit of Samuel was not dead!!

1 Samuel 28:13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.”
14 “What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

 

[muhammad_isa]

muhammad_isa Christians believe "Jesus is God" they always have believed Jesus is God!!

You have not commented on what I have said..
... ... ...
..and what do you know about Origen..

Origen of Alexandria ( c. 185 – c. 253), also known as Origen Adamantius, was an early Christian scholar, ascetic, and theologian who was born and spent the first half of his career in Alexandria.

What a "pity" that we haven't got his original works .. we only have Latin translations, that we know have been altered. Some Roman Emperors ordered 1000's of texts to be destroyed.
... ... ...

Is anything untrue that I have written above?
Note that the original Nicene Creed was first adopted at the First Council of Nicaea in 325, and Origen had died before then.

He was a prolific writer who wrote roughly 2,000 treatises in multiple branches of theology, including textual criticism, biblical exegesis and hermeneutics, homiletics, and spirituality. He was one of the most influential and controversial figures in early Christian theology, apologetics, and asceticism. He has been described as "the greatest genius the early church ever produced".
Origen - Wikipedia

He was a Greek, and educated in Greek literature.
His Greek works were lost, as trinitarian Emperors ordered the burning of his works.

Please reply to what I have written, and not just "spew out" Bible verses from the canon.

 

[Dogknox20]

You have not commented on what I have said..
... ... ...
..and what do you know about Origen..

Origen of Alexandria ( c. 185 – c. 253), also known as Origen Adamantius, was an early Christian scholar, ascetic, and theologian who was born and spent the first half of his career in Alexandria.

What a "pity" that we haven't got his original works .. we only have Latin translations, that we know have been altered. Some Roman Emperors ordered 1000's of texts to be destroyed.
... ... ...

Is anything untrue that I have written above?
Note that the original Nicene Creed was first adopted at the First Council of Nicaea in 325, and Origen had died before then.

He was a prolific writer who wrote roughly 2,000 treatises in multiple branches of theology, including textual criticism, biblical exegesis and hermeneutics, homiletics, and spirituality. He was one of the most influential and controversial figures in early Christian theology, apologetics, and asceticism. He has been described as "the greatest genius the early church ever produced".
Origen - Wikipedia

He was a Greek, and educated in Greek literature.
His Greek works were lost, as trinitarian Emperors ordered the burning of his works.

Please reply to what I have written, and not just "spew out" Bible verses from the canon.

You have not commented on what I have said..
... ... ...
..and what do you know about Origen..

Origen of Alexandria ( c. 185 – c. 253), also known as Origen Adamantius, was an early Christian scholar, ascetic, and theologian who was born and spent the first half of his career in Alexandria.

What a "pity" that we haven't got his original works .. we only have Latin translations, that we know have been altered. Some Roman Emperors ordered 1000's of texts to be destroyed.
... ... ...

Is anything untrue that I have written above?
Note that the original Nicene Creed was first adopted at the First Council of Nicaea in 325, and Origen had died before then.

He was a prolific writer who wrote roughly 2,000 treatises in multiple branches of theology, including textual criticism, biblical exegesis and hermeneutics, homiletics, and spirituality. He was one of the most influential and controversial figures in early Christian theology, apologetics, and asceticism. He has been described as "the greatest genius the early church ever produced".
Origen - Wikipedia

He was a Greek, and educated in Greek literature.
His Greek works were lost, as trinitarian Emperors ordered the burning of his works.

Please reply to what I have written, and not just "spew out" Bible verses from the canon.

.
I reply
Some of Origen' letters were altered by heretics to make them say what they wanted Origen to have said! But not all of them; the letters that were not altered have been verified and proven to be original muhammad_isa You don't toss them all out because of a few!

Origen A.D. 248
“Formerly, in an obscure way, there was manna for food; now, however, in full view, there is the true food, the flesh of the Word of God, as he himself says: ‘My flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink’ [John 6:55]” (Homilies on Numbers 7:2 [A.D. 248]).

The early Christians believe Jesus is God!
The early Christians believe we eat his living flesh in the form of bread! Just as Origen tells you!
muhammad_isa Note these early Christians (below) came before Origen he teaches the same as the Christians did before him!
Christians believe Jesus is God Thomas the Apostle is a Christian Jesus is his Lord & God!
Ignatius of Antioch
“I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ . . . and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible” (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr
“For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus
“If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?” (Against Heresies 4:33–32 [A.D. 189]).

 

[muhammad_isa]

Christians believe Jesus is God..

They believe what they believe .. there are many creeds.

If you wish to define Christianity, as "Jesus is God", you will have to explain why on the day of judgment. You will have to explain why you reject believers that don't believe that Jesus is God.

Muslims will also have to explain why they consider everybody as "heretics" except for themselves [if they do].

To me, it is all foolishness, inspired by satan.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Really? ..so somebody who dies in a motor accident dies because we are "accountable", and somehow, when Jesus returns, we can no longer have an accident or heart-attack and what not? No, no .. it's all dreaming and falsehood.

A lot of people think the account about Adam and Eve living forever on a beautiful paradisical Earth is falsehood.
So, you are not alone in your thinking.
If you were out working in your beautiful garden and someone came along and interrupted you, would you then say because I was interrupted I am never going back to my garden, or rather once the interruption was over you would then go back to your garden ___________
Satan interrupted throwing a monkey wrench into God's paradisical Garden of Eden of perfect health and happiness.
Also, Adam and Eve disobeyed the Garden's Rule of Genesis 2:17 about the forbidden fruit tree.
None of their disobedience was by God's choice but the by the free-will choice of Satan and Adam and Eve.
The interruption they caused would Not end before earth was populated with descendants of Adam and Eve.
Since ' death ' is the price tag we pay for sin ( No matter when or how we die, by accident or not ) we die.
The only hope for any dead person is via resurrection - John 6:40
Angels were created to live in Heaven, People were created to live on Earth.
Only those like the ones Jesus chose at Luke 22:28-30 are called to heavenly life - Daniel 7:18
The majority of mankind ( because they paid for 'their own accountable sin' with their death - Romans 6:7; 6:23 ) can have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection with the same original offer that was offered to Adam before he sinned to live forever on Earth free from sickness and enemy death - Isaiah 33:24; Isaiah 35th chapter, 1 Corinthians 15:26
Dreaming we are Not mortal and continue to be conscious alive at death is the falsehood.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What beginning exactly? ..and that is obviously correct. Nothing happens without the will of "the Father" .. because "the Father" is God, the Most High.
There is only One God, and "the Son" is a man .. not an ordinary man .. a "son of God" is not an ordinary man . but an extraordinary man, chosen by God .. Jesus is the Messiah sent by God .. he is not God .. he did not send himself.
If one wants to say that Jesus existed for eternity, that might be correct, as we ALL might have existed for eternity .. our spirits belong to God, and are not necessarily manufactured in a "spirits factory".

God always existed according to Psalms 90:2
Before material creation there was only heavenly/ spirit creation.
The very first heavenly spirit body creation was pre-human heavenly Jesus - Revelation 3:14 B; Proverbs 8:22
In other words, pre-human heavenly Jesus was the first of all creation.
That is why pre-human heavenly Jesus was "IN" the beginning of God's creation - Revelation 4:11.
Pre-human heavenly Jesus was Not "BEFORE" the beginning as his God was "BEFORE" anything else.
God sent pre-human Jesus to Earth for us. God can Not fit on Earth - 1 Kings 8:27
When Adam died his spirit of life "IT" died along with Adam - Ecclesiastes 12:7 - "IT" is neuter.
One's spirit is Not a spirit person but a neuter "it".

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Adam came to life when God put his spirit into him!
All life is because of God!
When Adam died God did not, the spirit returned to God! When you die it is because your spirit has left you!
There are Ghosts & there are evil spirits. The Spirit of Samuel was not dead!!
1 Samuel 28:13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.”
14 “What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

Our spirit is a neuter "it" as found at Ecclesiastes 12:7 B - "IT" ( Neuter is Not a person )
Mediums ( today's clairvoyant consultants ) just claim to speak with the departed.
They are actually in touch with wicked spirits (demons) who impersonate the dead.
A ghostly resemblance does not establish identity. Like counterfeit money is not the real thing.
Remember the warning at Leviticus 19:31

 

[Dogknox20]

They believe what they believe .. there are many creeds.

If you wish to define Christianity, as "Jesus is God", you will have to explain why on the day of judgment. You will have to explain why you reject believers that don't believe that Jesus is God.

Muslims will also have to explain why they consider everybody as "heretics" except for themselves [if they do].

To me, it is all foolishness, inspired by satan.

.
muhammad_isa I hope all is well...
You bring up a good point...
I reply: Scriptures tell us Jesus built his Church on Rock (one Church) not on sand! This means Jesus is not a fool that his building will never fail! All who reject Jesus as God believe Jesus is a fool, they believe; Jesus got it wrong that his building did fail, and their man-made churches are the replacement! They all believe; they have somehow come to the rescue of Jesus to establish what Jesus failed to do!
Question did Jesus get it right or do these many man-made churches have it right? There can only be one truth 2+2=4

Scriptures tell us "Jesus is "Always with his Church to the end of time"!
Matthew 28:20 Teach them to obey everything that I have told you to do. You can be sure that I will be with you always. I will continue with you until the end of time.”
Question did Satan (Anti-Christ) overpower Jesus and did Satan somehow take the body of Jesus (Church) from Jesus?!

muhammad_isa for anyone to say: "Yes, Jesus failed to remain with his body" they then MUST reject the scriptures! All of these man-made bodies thousands of churches Your religion also MUST reject the words of Jesus!
Christians believe the words of Jesus!

Thomas was an apostle a follower of Jesus, he is a Christian, he tells us "Jesus is his Lord & God"!
Christians believe the words of Jesus... You can be sure that I will be with you always. I will continue with you until the end of time.” & "I will build my Church on Rock it will never fail"!

Christians believe Jesus is God they are followers of Jesus!

The Anti-Christ hates truth! He hates Christians that is why he is "Anti-Christ" There is not Anti-Mahammad no Ant-Hindu no Anti-Buda etc!
muhammad_isa The word Christ means "Messiah"! The Jews have been waiting for their Messiah for 4000 years! Satan is Anti-Messiah ("Anti-Christ") look around at all the peoples that hate Jews today! Truly the work of Satan!
Yes They will be Judged!

 

[Dogknox20]

Our spirit is a neuter "it" as found at Ecclesiastes 12:7 B - "IT" ( Neuter is Not a person )
Mediums ( today's clairvoyant consultants ) just claim to speak with the departed.
They are actually in touch with wicked spirits (demons) who impersonate the dead.
A ghostly resemblance does not establish identity. Like counterfeit money is not the real thing.
Remember the warning at Leviticus 19:31

.
Remember what Thomas (The Christian said) "My Lord & God"!
Remember what Jesus said.... "All who believe as you do (Thomas) are blessed!"
Meaning all who do NOT believe as Thomas are NOT Blessed!

Matthew 17:2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

 

[muhammad_isa]

Dreaming we are Not mortal and continue to be conscious alive at death is the falsehood.

Of course we are mortal.
Haven't all our ancestors died? Yes.

That does not mean that they will not be resurrected .. so what is your point exactly?
Is it that you believe that it is a bit like "musical chairs", where the ones left living will get to be in paradise?

 

[muhammad_isa]

muhammad_isa The word Christ means "Messiah"

It does..

The Jews have been waiting for their Messiah for 4000 years!

..and they are still waiting..
..so are we .. we are waiting for Jesus to return.
He will usher in a 1000 year era of global peace, where satan is "chained in a pit".

("Anti-Christ") look around at all the peoples that hate Jews today! Truly the work of Satan!
Yes They will be Judged!

Do you hate Jews?
I don't.

..but I am not in favour of Zionism and oppression.
No .. not at all !

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.
Remember what Thomas (The Christian said) "My Lord & God"!
Remember what Jesus said.... "All who believe as you do (Thomas) are blessed!"
Meaning all who do NOT believe as Thomas are NOT Blessed!
Matthew 17:2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

OK, lets start with John 20:17 which comes first before verse 28.
To me Jesus is clear in verse 17 that he was going to ascend to his Father and to their Father, and to his God and their God.
Just as a reporter when interviewing someone and the person in front of the reporter says, " Oh, my God ! " we know the person is not meaning the reporter is God but rather the statement is directed to God.
Jesus was Not telling a lie at John 20:17
After verse 2 at Matthew 17:9 we find the word VISION.
Jesus instructs to tell the transfiguration VISION to no one.
Thus, the transfiguration vision was a vision or a foregleam of Jesus' coming Glory Time at Matthew 25:31-34.
I find Matthew chapter 17 ends at verse 27 there is no verse 31 or 32 there.
I think you have in mind Matthew 22:31-32 or Luke 20:37-38 and I find Romans 4:17 helps answer.
God called them as if they are living which were not but as though they were alive.
'As though they were alive' because their names are penciled in the Book of Life.
So, in God's eyes a future resurrection for them is a done deal.
Jesus will resurrect them - John 6:40. A living person does Not need a resurrection - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
ALL those names listed in God's Hall of Fame are still awaiting the promise - Hebrews 11:13; Hebrews 11:39.
The Resurrection Day promise ( Jesus' Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years )

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Of course we are mortal.Haven't all our ancestors died? Yes. That does not mean that they will not be resurrected .. so what is your point exactly?
Is it that you believe that it is a bit like "musical chairs", where the ones left living will get to be in paradise?

Point is: future resurrection - John 6:40; Acts of the Apostles 24:15
The resurrection has Not yet taken place for the sleeping dead for those who will inherit the Earth.
There is a final judgement day coming (Not for the dead) but coming for the 'living' according to Matthew 25:31-34
The figurative 'sheep' alive at this time do Not need a resurrection because they are alive.
They are the living 'great crowd' of survivors of the Great Tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9; Matthew 25:37.
The living 'great crowd' needs No resurrection to be part of Jesus' coming 1,000 year governmental reign over Earth.
So, yes, the living great crowd can remain alive on Earth and be here on Earth to welcome back the resurrected dead when Earth will becoming a beautiful paradisical Earth as Eden originally was.
The final judgement day for the resurrected (and Armageddon survivors) will be by the end of Jesus' Millennial reign.

 

[muhammad_isa]

yes, the living great crowd can remain alive on Earth and be here on Earth to welcome back the resurrected dead when Earth will becoming a beautiful paradisical Earth as Eden originally was..

It never was 'paradise'

Are you saying that Adam could have jumped off the top of a mountain and he wouldn't have died?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It never was 'paradise'
Are you saying that Adam could have jumped off the top of a mountain and he wouldn't have died?

No, I am Not saying A&E could have jumped off a mountain top because that would Not show respect for life.
Adam & Eve were created with righteous leanings, only by deliberately choosing to do wrong would be their choice.
According to Genesis Eden was a beautiful paradisical garden.
Even today in travel brochures they often liken a trip to a beautiful warm spot as: paradise.