muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Not in my Bible .. what about the sheep & goats in the Gospels?
Why would they? What does it matter, if we are just "blotted out" .. cease to exist?
What would be the difference in belief and disbelief?
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What do you think of Purgatory?
- Thread starter Estro Felino
- Start date
What would be the difference in belief and disbelief?
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
As I've said MANY times, the Bible actually teaches a bunch of competing and contradictory ideas about the afterlife:
1. That there is no afterlife, you are just dead, in the grave with your forefathers.
2. That you go to Sheol, the abode of the dead, which has nothing to do with reward or punishment -- very similar to Hades.
3. That you go to Gehinnom, a temporary hell where you are purified for the world to come.
4. That you will be bodily resurrected, and live in the world to come.
5. From the NT: that you will go either to "Abraham's bosom" or to the other side where you are punished.
6. From the NT: that you will be cast into the "lake of fire." (This is where the popular notion of hell comes from."
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I do not think Purgatory is real and I don't have any "global vision on sorteriology"This question is addressed to Christians, particularly.
I am curious about the other people's stance, though.
So anyone can express their opinion on what Purgatory is.
Purgatory - Wikipedia
You can express your global vision on soteriology, as well. I would appreciate it, if you did.
Thank you in advance.
Please notice the time setting for the sheep & goats - Matt. 25:31-34,37 - at Jesus' coming Glory Time.
Jesus as King (of God's kingdom aka government Daniel 2:44) Jesus separates the living people on Earth at his Glory Time.
What matters when the goats are blotted out, aka cease to exist, is that there is No further future life for them.
No resurrection for the goats, whereas the believing sheep can remain alive on Earth and can be here to see calendar Day One of Jesus' starting his Millennium-Long Day governing over Earth for a thousand years.
What is Not in your Bible ________________
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
That doesn't sound like being blotted out. It sounds exactly like the classic Christian idea of hell, actually.
Why not have any global vision of salvation because the whole globe is involved at the coming time of separation - Matt.
25:31-34
No Purgatory for the figurative 'goats' because they will be gone destroyed forever - Proverbs 2:21-22
The ' eternal fire ' is the symbolic ' lake of fire ' at Rev. 20:13-14 which is defined as ' second death ' - Rev. 21:8
Fire can't burn up Satan or his angels, but Satan will be destroyed by Jesus - Hebrews 2:14 B
In ' second death ' there is No restoring to life ever again - Jeremiah 51:39,57
No, Not a classic-Christian idea but the classic Non-biblical idea of religious-myth hell just taught as being Scripture.
Biblical hell is simply the temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead - Psalm 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
KJV English word 'hell fire' is from the word Gehenna.
Gehenna was a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where thing were: destroyed.
As in a fireplace what is thrown in turns to ashes destroying things forever.
Yes, your right (point #6) the ''popular notion' because many clergy like to use fire to try to control the flock of God.
Please notice the definition of the lake of fire as defined at Rev. 20:13-14 defined as ' second death '
Sinner Satan even ends up in ' second death ' - Rev. 21:8 - Fire can't burn Satan nor his angels.
Dead unconscious forever - Jeremiah 51:39,57
Gehenna (Gehinnom) is where things were destroyed turned to ashes. Never to be put back together again.
Gehenna is a fitting word for: destruction
The wicked are in No temporary holding place but 'destroyed forever' as the Bible teaches:
- Psalm 92:7; Psalm 104:35; Psalm 145:20; Proverbs 2:21-22
The definition of the word ' afterlife' is Not Resurrection, but means more alive after death than before death.
The after-dead alive do Not need a resurrection to be restored back to life if one is alive - Acts 24:15
So, the after-life teaching of being conscious alive after death is Not a Bible teaching.
As Hebrews chapter 11 informs us (Heb. 11:13,39) Abraham is still Not alive, but the promise to Abraham is Not Heaven but a resurrection on Earth. No one who died before Jesus (John 3:13) was offered Heaven.
So, all those named in God's Hall of Fame (Hebrews chapter 11) are in line for a future earthly resurrection.
That is why the 'future tense' is used at Acts 24:15 that 'there is going to be' a resurrection........
Only those who will have a first resurrection, or earlier resurrection go to Heaven -> Rev. 20:6; 2:10; 5:9-10
The majority of mankind can be resurrected to live again on Earth and can gain 'everlasting life on Earth '
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
I would rather be a goat, if that were true.
I do not want to live here on earth for longer than I have to .. it's a burden.
Fortunately, I don't have to .. we will all die .. not one of us will "remain alive" here on earth.
It's always *****y money!
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
..sounds like you have a love of this worldly life .. you want to live forever.
The universe is finite .. it is not designed to last forever .. neither are our worldly bodies.
Your belief is nothing but a dream .. that earth will be transformed into a magic fairy-land,
where accidents can't happen, and nobody will commit crime etc.
The 1000 year reign is not permanent .. that's why it's only for 1000 years.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Like many words, Gehinnom has more than one meaning. It's true that one meaning is a garbage dump outside Jerusalem. It is ALSO true that Gehinnom refers to a temporary hell where we are purified for the resurrection. It is very obvious, given the religious topic, that Jesus was referring to the latter.
Yes, it's always follow the $$$$$$ money
A friend's father said someone was always trying to have a hand in his back pocket (wallet)
Yes, at this time we all die because we all fall short because of the imperfection we inherited from fallen-father Adam
Yes, life in this system is a heavy load if not a burden, but if the wicked were gone? - Revelation 11:18 B
Without wicked violent people life would no longer be a heavy load or a burden
Mankind's long history shows man can't stop the world's troubles - Ecclesiastes 8:9
Thus, we are forewarned so that we can be forearmed that what we now see is temporary
As the old adage says, 'it is darkest (burdensome) before the dawn' (meaning will be un-burdened )
Sounds like your saying dead Jesus was tortured in hellish flames to be purified for his resurrection - Acts 2:27
What was burnt up in Gehenna was turned to ashes. No resurrecting for anything in Gehenna.
Did Jesus and the OT lie about the condition of the dead _________
- Psalm 6:5; Psalm 13:3; Psalm 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-14
Excellent point that the 1000 yr reign is Not permanent..sounds like you have a love of this worldly life .. you want to live forever.
The universe is finite .. it is not designed to last forever .. neither are our worldly bodies.
Your belief is nothing but a dream .. that earth will be transformed into a magic fairy-land,
where accidents can't happen, and nobody will commit crime etc.
The 1000 year reign is not permanent .. that's why it's only for 1000 years.
Unfaithful people can still die (but only by deliberate choice choosing to become unfaithful) during Jesus' Millennial Reign
That thousand years is only a 'day' in God's eyes
There is ALL of eternity after that 'day'
This is when those who are truly meek will inherit the Earth once all the wicked are permanently gone
Earth's nations will be 'healed' - Rev. 22:2 - unburdened
- 1st Corinthians 15:24-26
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I'm fairly confident that the Muslim you were replying to does not believe in some future 1000 year reign of Jesus. I certainly didn't see him mention any such thing. So what "point" did you think he made about the 1000 year reign?
Not a worldly life in this system as mentioned at 2nd Timothy 3:1-5,13
But life as described in the beautiful paradisical Garden of Eden
Adam and Eve were designed to live forever on such a beautiful Earth forever
Good question, I hope he will reply to the ^ above ^ .
Don't Muslims believe in a coming beautiful Earth - SURAH XXXIX 73-74; XXI 105
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
ALL of us can still die .. and will.
..or are you claiming that a person can no longer be run over by a car etc. etc. ?
On this earth we are mortal. G-d can create an alternative universe, where our bodies are
NOT mortal.
The result is the same .. an eternal life .. this is the trouble when making claims about G-d,
interpreting Scripture in a literal fashion, ignoring that which we don't like or understand.
Right .. but your insistence that wicked souls magically disappear, and only righteous souls will
continue to exist is only half-right.
You ( JW's) insist this is the case .. and so do many other Protestants .. but G-d knows best.
It is not mankind's business to make such judgment .. none of us know what will happen to an individual soul.
We have hope in G-d's Mercy, that our loved ones will join us in paradise, but nobody knows..
We all belong to G-d, and unto Him we will return.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
I do, actually..
I believe that Jesus, the Son of Mary, will return at an appointed time (as the Messiah, and not G-d).
He will rid the earth of corruption and disbelief, and bring in a global, 'golden age'.
..but after ~1000 years, future generations will become complacent, and disbelief will return.
..whereas JW's believe that the earth will be 'happily ever after'.
Right, No one will be run over by a car, etc. Death will be No more - 1st Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8
Right, on this earth we are mortal. That is why mortal Adam could die.
The already created alternative universe is Heaven where God and His angels reside - 1st Kings 8:39
Angels are also mortals as we can see by the fallen angels of Noah's day.
Only God is immortal and God granted immortality to resurrected Jesus - John 5:26
Those who have that first or earlier resurrection also will be granted immortal life in Heaven - John 6:53; Rev. 20:6
They will govern along with Jesus over Earth - Rev.5:9-10 - as both kings and priests towards Earth.
So, 'yes' there is a difference between being immortal (death proof) in Heaven and gaining everlasting life on Earth.
True, the result is the same in the sense that both can live forever. Immortal in Heaven or Mortal on Earth.
Mortal as Adam was mortal. Mortal Adam could only die if he chose to break God's Law.
To me Jesus is Not using magic to rid the Earth of the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15
The 'sword-like executional words from Jesus' mouth' will rid the Earth of the wicked along with his armies of angels.
Right, it is not mankind's business to make judgement calls because we don't know who will repent or not.
This does Not mean that we should Not warn the wicked to repent - Ezekiel 3:18-21
Yes, we have hope but the final outcome rests in God's hands as He appointed Jesus to be King of His Kingdom for a thousand years over Earth.
Adam and Eve did Not return to God but returned to the dust of the ground - Genesis 3:19
A person can Not return to a place he never was before. Adam and Eve were never angels in Heaven.