What do you think of Purgatory?

[joelr]

Yes, very interesting. @joelr @1213
But that doesn't answer my question: "Are sins all equal in the eyes of God"?
Or there are graver sins?

A theology question I do not care about and have not retained any information on.
You have to demonstrate a God is real first.
"Sin" is a word used before Judaism but they became rather obsessed with it. It's also not real. There are just people and morals and ethics.
So yes we recognize there are much worse violations of moral codes and that is probably imported onto religious mythology.

"Sin" in religion is a magic force that can be removed in some theology by prayer or sacrifice of animals or demigods. Religions like to claim everyone is a sinner but they have the solution.

 

[Estro Felino]

A theology question I do not care about and have not retained any information on.
You have to demonstrate a God is real first.
"Sin" is a word used before Judaism but they became rather obsessed with it. It's also not real. There are just people and morals and ethics.
So yes we recognize there are much worse violations of moral codes and that is probably imported onto religious mythology.

"Sin" in religion is a magic force that can be removed in some theology by prayer or sacrifice of animals or demigods. Religions like to claim everyone is a sinner but they have the solution.

There are also religions whose purpose and aim is to erase the distinction between good and evil.
Are they preferable?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'm sharing my experience with you because I think that you could use some reassurance right now. My inbox is always open if you would like to talk further..

Thankyou..

I won't go into a lengthy explanation in this post about what I believe concerning death and the afterlife, but I would like to say that I don't believe that the afterlife is something to be feared..

..that fear is the only thing that stops me from ending my life.
If I thought that suffering could be permanently ended..

I can now understand how bipolar/schizo affected suffer, and that no medicine can totally relieve the feelings of hopelessness.

 

[joelr]

There are also religions who purpose and aim is to erase the distinction between good and evil.
Are they preferable?

First what religion and why? How about no religion is preferable? We do not need to tell people deities are giving people messages.
Religion is not about good and evil, it's epic stories about good and evil, like Lord of the Rings.
We already have philosophy, secular moralism, laws based on well being, already in place with a justice system backing them up. Parts of Europe are secular, they have not fallen apart.

All people do with religion is pretend they are being good because of the religion. But people generally are good and enjoy being good people. Some don't and act out weather they are religious or not.
But the religious rules are not followed unless they match cultural morals. Very few Christians enforce women being silent in church, don't take an oath, laws in Leviticus (but the 10 commandments are fine).
Except not really because no one cares about no graven images, few care about keeping Sunday holy or people having other Gods. Taking the name in vein, virtually no religious person follows that. Coveting your neighbor is the base of U.S. capitalism. Paul says it's better to not get married. That is ignored.
Religious people who are gay either leave or join a new age Christian group who re-interprets the scripture so it now says it's ok to be gay.
We. Make. Up. Our . Own. Morals. Not religion.

 

[1213]

Yes, very interesting. @joelr @1213
But that doesn't answer my question: "Are sins all equal in the eyes of God"?
Or there are graver sins?

I think the question is about is persons righteous or not. If person is righteous, he produces righteous "fruit". And if person is unrighteous (sinful), he produces sinful actions. Even if you would be lazy and not produce much evil it doesn't really matter, if your mind is evil. Small evil is enough to prove what kind of person one is. The actions are only like a fruit that tells is the tree good or bad. Actions don't define person; it is the person that defines his actions. Actions are only the result, not the cause.

Even so, every good tree produces good fruit; but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. A good tree can’t produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. Every tree that doesn’t grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire. Therefore, by their fruits you will know them.
Matt. 7:17-20

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

This is why I think sin is what sinner does. And righteousness is what righteous does. All sinners are as bad, even if they would not have done all the same things. And all righteous are as good, even if they would not have done all the same things. What matters is that their state of mind, because it is the cause of all their actions.

 

[Estro Felino]

First what religion and why? How about no religion is preferable? We do not need to tell people deities are giving people messages.
Religion is not about good and evil, it's epic stories about good and evil, like Lord of the Rings.
We already have philosophy, secular moralism, laws based on well being, already in place with a justice system backing them up. Parts of Europe are secular, they have not fallen apart.

All people do with religion is pretend they are being good because of the religion. But people generally are good and enjoy being good people. Some don't and act out weather they are religious or not.
But the religious rules are not followed unless they match cultural morals. Very few Christians enforce women being silent in church, don't take an oath, laws in Leviticus (but the 10 commandments are fine).
Except not really because no one cares about no graven images, few care about keeping Sunday holy or people having other Gods. Taking the name in vein, virtually no religious person follows that. Coveting your neighbor is the base of U.S. capitalism. Paul says it's better to not get married. That is ignored.
Religious people who are gay either leave or join a new age Christian group who re-interprets the scripture so it now says it's ok to be gay.
We. Make. Up. Our . Own. Morals. Not religion.

Philosophically speaking, many atheist thinkers have highlighted that human condition is not "fun", actually.
Human condition is light years away different than animals' condition, because humans have self-awareness, whereas animals eat, mate, breed, and then die.
Whenever a person gets old and is falling apart, was his life worthy? Did he live his life to make children only? To reproduce only, as animals live their own existence?
Children who will repeat the same human cycle as their parents.

Christians' God is a God that has never wanted humans to remain "human". But to cross the line of caducity.

 

[Estro Felino]

I think the question is about is persons righteous or not. If person is righteous, he produces righteous "fruit". And if person is unrighteous (sinful), he produces sinful actions. Even if you would be lazy and not produce much evil it doesn't really matter, if your mind is evil. Small evil is enough to prove what kind of person one is. The actions are only like a fruit that tells is the tree good or bad. Actions don't define person; it is the person that defines his actions. Actions are only the result, not the cause.

Even so, every good tree produces good fruit; but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. A good tree can’t produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. Every tree that doesn’t grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire. Therefore, by their fruits you will know them.
Matt. 7:17-20

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

This is why I think sin is what sinner does. And righteousness is what righteous does. All sinners are as bad, even if they would not have done all the same things. And all righteous are as good, even if they would not have done all the same things. What matters is that their state of mind, because it is the cause of all their actions.

I am not getting what you're getting at, forgive me.
So you mean to say that there are people predestined to salvation from birth...
and people predestined to damnation from birth?

 

[metis]

In my view, purgatory negates the work of the Cross and the atoning legality that it accomplished.

Even though I have no clue whether there is such a thing as purgatory, nevertheless it does not negate the work of the cross as we can be held responsible for our sins, such as what we read about in the Sermon On the Mount and the Parable of the Sheep & Goats and the Parable of the Seed & Sower.

IOW, sin has consequences even if we're a believer or not, imo.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..you mean to say that there are people predestined to salvation from birth...
and people predestined to damnation from birth?

Some protestants believe that..

The understanding of free-will and Divine ordinance and how they are inter-related is a complex topic.

What do you think?

 

[muhammad_isa]

IOW, sin has consequences even if we're a believer or not, imo.

Yes .. that would be logical.
The danger of believing we will automatically be forgiven for our sins is that it could well lead us into disbelief, if we are not careful.

That is because good deeds strengthen our faith, and bad deeds weaken it.

 

[Estro Felino]

Some protestants believe that..

The understanding of free-will and Divine ordinance and how they are inter-related is a complex topic.

What do you think?

What do I think? It contradicts so many passages from the New Testament:
Like James 5 ...because the wealthy do consider themselves self-righteous. They also consider themselves entitled. And also saint, immaculate, and holy.
So according to predestination, they should be saved, a priori.

 

[RestlessSoul]

"Bought it" is exactly the point. People paid a lot to get their relatives prayed into heaven.

Look at the magnificent churches and chapels in Rome and ask yourself where it all came from.

Have you seen St Peter’s in Rome? It’s difficult to defend such extravagance in the name of Christ, who was a champion of the poor; except, that is, on the grounds of it’s staggering beauty. And it’s beauty is available to all who make the trip to Rome. Any Catholic can attend mass in St Peter’s, and I challenge anyone who does, not to be moved by the experience.

 

[metis]

Yes .. that would be logical.
The danger of believing we will automatically be forgiven for our sins is that it could well lead us into disbelief, if we are not careful.

That is because good deeds strengthen our faith, and bad deeds weaken it.

I totally agree.

Gandhi was bothered by so many "born again Christians" who believed they were already saved and acted like nothing mattered what they did from that point on. However, I do know that @Kenny doesn't believe in that "once saved, always saved" position.

 

[Dogknox20]

Well, I'm Catholic so I accept it. But regardless of that, I believe that there is definitely a place of purification and I actually think that most of us end up there. I only think the most obstinately wicked end up in hell, personally. I also don't believe in reincarnation (I saw that brought up.)

Saint Frankenstein Good to meet you... I am a Catholic also!
FYI.... Just so you don't confuse others (Not Catholics) Purgatory is not a "Place"! Purgatory is a "STAGE"!
The soul goes through a Stage of purging from sin! A stage of "Sanctification"! All must be Sanctified before they can enter heaven! NOTHING...

Saint Frankenstein nothing impure can enter heaven! Most people understand the need to be sanctified/clensed of sin!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Saint Frankenstein Good to meet you... I am a Catholic also!
FYI.... Just so you don't confuse others (Not Catholics) Purgatory is not a "Place"! Purgatory is a "STAGE"!
The soul goes through a Stage of purging from sin! A stage of "Sanctification"! All must be Sanctified before they can enter heaven! NOTHING...

Saint Frankenstein nothing impure can enter heaven! Most people understand the need to be sanctified/clensed of sin!

Stop yelling at me and stop trying to lecture.

 

[Dogknox20]

I disagree, Satan did not impregnate their mothers. If they are created then Satan did not create them.


Those who were not loving were simply acting in accordance with their (allegedly created) nature and environmental influences (environments which God allegedly placed them in). It is interesting that you would judge the more naturally vile of God's creations as unworthy of salvation but not judge your God who (allegedlly) gave them their natures and set them in their environments.

In my opinion.

.
danieldemol I hope all is well... Satan does NOT create them they Choose NOT to love! They reject God.... God is LOVE! Satan cannot love he has already been judged; all he can do is hate!

Man is made with free will this is the freedom to choose; Love or not to love! God is Love man is made in the image of God! Dogs cats, snails, cows, frogs etc cannot love but they also cannot sin!

 

[Dogknox20]

Stop yelling at me and stop trying to lecture.

Sorry.... Just pointing out to you the same mistake I had made in the past! Saying it is a place rather than a stage opens you up to various complaints against your Catholic faith!

 

[Bird123]

That is correct. God does not 'send' people to hell.
People send themselves to hell by being attached to the worldly things that will no longer be available to them in the next world... Hell is desiring what you can never have again.

Hell does not exist. People will learn on the road to Discover what the best answers are that the Spiritual things are all that really matter. On the other hand, people can make some very bad choices which will return some very hard lessons. This can seem like Hell to some, however learning moves one forward away from the hard lesson that was chosen. When one understands all sides, Intelligence will choose the best choices.

Unlike the concept of Hell, no adversity or no lesson is forever. It has never ever been about punishment or payback!!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Kenny]

Yes, but I would like to understand what leads to Heaven and what leads to Hell, according to the Scriptures and your views.

John 16:
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

In our scriptures, Jesus expressed it this way:

His Holy Spirit is constantly expressing three point, sin, righteousness and judgment and then Jesus explains each point:

1. The only sin that is the dividing line is whether or not one has believed on Jesus Christ. It isn't the litany of what we have done wrong, doing wrong or going to do wrong. Rather it is the simply the sin on not believing on him.
   1. Why? Because the totality of all sin was paid for on the Cross.
   2. We all have heard that there is "no double jeopardy clause". In that God has judged our sins as "no guilty" by virtue of the Cross, the sins no longer are charged to our offense.
   3. The sin that we have not been declared "not guilty" is the sin of not believing on Jesus
2. Of righteousness, because Jesus went to the Father and the Father said "justice is satisfied" - my creation is now reconciled to me. (Again, we can reject the righteousness if we so choose)
3. And judgment. The real judgement is not against man but against the prince of this world. When we don't believe on Jesus, we are guilty by association and receive the judgment that was reserved for the prince of this world. Like a murderer who pulls the trigger but the other person who drove the car is guilty by association.

At least in my understanding.

 

[Kenny]

Even though I have no clue whether there is such a thing as purgatory, nevertheless it does not negate the work of the cross as we can be held responsible for our sins, such as what we read about in the Sermon On the Mount and the Parable of the Sheep & Goats and the Parable of the Seed & Sower.

IOW, sin has consequences even if we're a believer or not, imo.

I think the consequences if more about physical consequences than spiritual