Eternal punishment does not have to mean burn forever in fire.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 says punished with -> everlasting destruction.
Remember too that the sheep and goats are illustrative and Not literal sheep and goats.
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What do you think of Purgatory?
- Thread starter Estro Felino
- Start date
Eternal punishment does not have to mean burn forever in fire.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 says punished with -> everlasting destruction.
Remember too that the sheep and goats are illustrative and Not literal sheep and goats.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
No, of course not..
It is a synonym for suffering and despair .. just as paradise is a synonym for success and satisfaction.
It is a state of being .. surrounded by bad companions .. mental anguish .. the result of arrogance and greed etc.
In Book of Revelation, satan will be trapped in a pit for 1000 years, which means that he will lose his power during that time.
Jesus often speaks in parables. The more we study with sincerity, the more we understand, God willing.
I suppose eternal death can be likened to capital punishment when a criminal is executed, and has No future hope.
Unlike the atheist claim, Adam (and us) are living souls - Genesis 2:7
As souls we crave to eat - Deuteronomy 12:20 - just don't eat blood - Leviticus 17:12
Souls have blood traveling through our veins - Jeremiah 2:34
Like sinner Adam, at death we become dead souls, lifeless souls.-Ezekiel 18:4,20
Without a resurrection hope we would all sleep a perpetual death/sleep - Jeremiah 51:39; Jeremiah 51:57
Knowledge/education is pleasant to one's soul - Proverbs 2:10
Some nights one's soul can be sleepless with grief - Psalm 119:28
And as Jesus said one can loose his own soul - Matthew 16:26
And as Luke wrote at Acts of the Apostles 3:23 one's soul can be destroyed.
So, while alive we enjoy life as a living soul.
No, of course not..
It is a synonym for suffering and despair .. just as paradise is a synonym for success and satisfaction.
It is a state of being .. surrounded by bad companions .. mental anguish .. the result of arrogance and greed etc.
In Book of Revelation, satan will be trapped in a pit for 1000 years, which means that he will lose his power during that time.
Jesus often speaks in parables. The more we study with sincerity, the more we understand, God willing.
Good point about Satan being trapped for a thousand years, but please notice after the thousand years Satan ends up in ' second death ' at Revelation 21:8. Jesus will destroy Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B.
Thus ' second death ' and ' destruction ' go hand in hand.
Sinner Satan never repents so Satan will perish - 2 Peter 3:9
Yes, before Adam sinned his leanings were upright and righteous, so I can agree that while Adam was in the paradisical Garden of Eden it was successful and satisfying.
Adam lost Paradise for us and Jesus will restore Paradise for us.
By asking God for His kingdom to come (thy kingdom come....) we are asking for Paradise/Eden be restored to Earth.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Why has he got no future hope?
If he believes in God, he can repent.
You what?
Atheists claim that when we die, we die, and can know no more.
A believer does not believe that. The soul/spirit does not "die" at death.
You are just playing with words.
Call it soul, call it spirit .. don't split hairs.
Nonsense. That is not what Jesus is reported to have taught.
Do you even care what he taught, or are you just a "verse spewer"?
In any case, who cares .. why would anybody want to live forever? If you are dead forever, you wouldn't be missing anything, would you.
No .. that is misbelief .. you keep quoting this verse and that verse, and ignore reality. PEOPLE SUFFER NOW, AND AFTER DEATH TOO.
You just want to believe in paradise, where souls live forever .. and then claim that souls don't live forever except for you and your mates.
You are not kidding .. but despite what you say, the "destruction of a soul" causes mental anguish .. not ceases to exist.
That is an innovation by some Jews and JW's .. it's not what is taught by Jesus.
We reap what we sow .. that is what Jesus taught.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
You are like a grasshopper. If the Bible was supposed to be read in the fashion that you quote it, it would be written in that fashion.
Cherry-pick, cherry-pick .. make it look like your creed. It's a bit like a conjurer who mesmerises. Rather than reading the whole, and understanding it, you quote this verse and that verse higglldipiggldi, with no context. That is no way to study the Bible.
One needs to include ALL of it .. not just a few cherry-picked verses that appear to support your creed.
Do you know any JW's who have a Doctor of Divinity degree from a top university? I doubt it.
If anybody loses paradise, it will be of their own doing .. don't blame Adam, he is not responsible for the sins that we might commit .. such as denying God exists, or committing adultery etc.
Almighty God has warned us. We can blame Adam, satan or anybody else .. it changes nothing.
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
URAVIP2ME What you believe is not what Christians believe! You are forced to reject the scriptures rejecting the words of Jesus as lies!
Jesus told the story of "The Rich Man & Lazarus"! Who are you to say Jesus did not mean to say what he said!?? Parable or Not Jesus is saying the Dead can understand and have Compassion! He is saying: There might be people who would want to visit the dead!
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
URAVIP2ME There is NO scriptures that say Dead Samuel did not understand the questions of Saul! Christians have always believed the dead are alive in Jesus! More alive than us left on earth! The Christian prays for the dead because there are some sin's that do NOT kill!
Scripture...
Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). They are alive forever!
Those who believed Jesus and have died.
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
1 Corinthians 310
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
1213 no sin can enter heaven... Nothing impure can enter! A person with sin must First be sanctified! Purged of any sins so they can enter!
1 John 5:16
If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray, and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.
There is sin that does Not Kill the soul! A person who dies with this sin... whose sin does not lead to death. can enter heaven if it is removed >> Sanctified<< !
Why has he got no future hope?
If he believes in God, he can repent.
You what? Atheists claim that when we die, we die, and can know no more.
A believer does not believe that. The soul/spirit does not "die" at death.
You are just playing with words. Call it soul, call it spirit .. don't split hairs.
Nonsense. That is not what Jesus is reported to have taught.
Do you even care what he taught, or are you just a "verse spewer"?
In any case, who cares .. why would anybody want to live forever? If you are dead forever, you wouldn't be missing anything, would you.
No .. that is misbelief .. you keep quoting this verse and that verse, and ignore reality. PEOPLE SUFFER NOW, AND AFTER DEATH TOO.
You just want to believe in paradise, where souls live forever .. and then claim that souls don't live forever except for you and your mates.
You are not kidding .. but despite what you say, the "destruction of a soul" causes mental anguish .. not ceases to exist. That is an innovation by some Jews and JW's .. it's not what is taught by Jesus.
We reap what we sow .. that is what Jesus taught.
Yes, we 'reap what we sow' and a wicked person who refuses to repent has No future.
Jesus taught at Matthew 12:32 that there is a sin for which there is No forgiveness. No forgiveness No hope.
Adam did Not suffer after death.
The total complete asking price for sin is: death (Romans 6:23) Not death plus anything else.
At death 'all' of Adam died. No post-mortem penalty for Adam. No double jeopardy for Adam.
ALL of Adam ' returned ' to where all of Adam started according to Genesis 3:19.
Like Adam, all of us pay the total price tag for our sins with our death. Not death plus suffering after death.
Jesus paid with his blood for all persons "IF" they do what it says at 1 John 1:7 ("IF")
I find your comment about ' you and your mates ' to be un-called for.
Jesus is the Judge as to who are the sheep and goats - Matthew 25:31-34,37
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
The word "Eternal" is used in both punishments, and Life!
Dictionary Dot Com
e·ter·nal
ADJECTIVE
- lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning:
"the secret of eternal youth" · "fear of eternal damnation"
SIMILAR:
everlasting
never-ending
endless
without end
perpetual- (of truths, values, or questions) valid for all time; essentially unchanging:
"eternal truths of art and life"
- (of truths, values, or questions) valid for all time; essentially unchanging:
The Bible is not written like a novel.
When Jesus said, " it is written......" Jesus was backing up his teaching by referring back to the old Hebrew Scriptures.
Not cherry picking, but as Jesus did using corresponding cross-reference verses and passages along the same line of thought.
Since the Bible is Not written in ABC order that is why a comprehensive concordance helps harmoniously arrange the Bible by topic or subject arrangement.
By taking one subject or one topic even one word at a time we can give attention by reading what is at hand, what preceded it and what follows it.
Thus, we can see a direct connection to a given word or passage by comparing what the Bible writers had to say on that given word or passage.
Do you know which apostles, or for that matter Jesus himself, had a Doctor of Divinity degree?
Or, where thy like what is mentioned at Acts of the Apostles 4:13 __________ 1 Corinthians 1:26-27______
Or, as Jesus stated at Matthew 11:25 ________
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
I'm sorry if I offended you, but it looks a bit like that "from the outside looking in"..
i.e. believers will live forever on paradise earth [not including 144,000 specials in heaven] .. and all others will cease to be
That is not what Jesus taught .. you also haven't commented on why anybody would choose to live forever.
Personally, I see that we have no choice .. we all live forever, and our behaviour here right now has far reaching consequences for the future.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
No, they didn't need it .. they had Jesus amongst them.
In Scripture I find that God is without end or beginning - Psalms 90:2 (Creator God 'before' anything else )
That does Not mean everything is without beginning or ending.
Jesus did Not want a person to literally cut off a hand or foot but Jesus was using an hyperbole.
The eternal fire was: Gehenna.- Matthew 5:29-30
Gehenna was a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed and Not buried.
So, as fire destroys things, the fiery Gehenna incinerator stands for: destruction.
Thus, it is no wonder that Psalms 37:38; Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35 is about destruction for the wicked.
Even the name of the wicked will rot (not burn)- Proverbs 10:7. The wicked are like chaff - Psalms 1:4
Notice what the punishment is as found at 2 Thessalonians 1:9 but everlasting destruction....
Please notice Acts of the Apostles 24:15 because the un-righteous are Not believers, but the un-righteous along with the righteous are both resurrected.
Only those who 'after being resurrected' and prove to be wicked will cease to be - Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35
Also, a righteous person can then prove to become un-righteous and wicked.
Don't disagree that our behavior here right now has far reaching consequences for good or bad.
This we can read about at Matthew 25:31-34.
Remember: the majority of mankind (John 3:13) never heard of Jesus or had time to put faith/confidence in Jesus.
The 'thousand-year Resurrection Day' will give all the resurrected the opportunity to make an informed decision.
Jesus decides who committed the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12:32; Luke 12:10; Hebrews 10:26
To me, if we all live forever (are death proof ) there would be No need for Jesus to offer everlasting life.
Adam would only die when he would choose to rebel against God. Die meaning go back to non-life.
..... and we have the teachings of Jesus amongst us aka Bible.No, they didn't need it .. they had Jesus amongst them.
Yes, those who believed Jesus and have died - John 6:40
But I think we need to keep in mind the majority of people have lived and died without an opportunity to learn about Jesus (John 3:13) which includes King David - Acts of the Apostles 2:34
So, the resurrection day ( Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over earth in righteousness ) is still ahead of us.
Both the righteous and un-righteous will be resurrected - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
Both will then have the opportunity for everlasting life.
Those who prove themselves to be wicked will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
..well, it's a much better "offer" than an everlasting death !
Yes, perpetual lasting death is Not a better offer - Jeremiah 51:39; Jeremiah 51:57..well, it's a much better "offer" than an everlasting death !