What do you think of Purgatory?

[URAVIP2ME]

The language of dogma develops. I think originally the idea of Purgatory was related to 2 Macc 6:18–7:42, of Eleazer and of a mother with her seven sons caught the imagination of medieval Christians. Several churches are dedicated to the "Maccabeean martyrs", and they are among the very few pre-Christian figures to appear on the Catholic calendar of saints' days. The book is considered the first model of the medieval stories of the martyrs. Hebrews 11:35 is a possible reference to this event.

It would seem to me Hebrews 11:34-37 is in connection to resurrection if one would die ( verse 34 the violence of fire ) those of Daniel 3:1-30 the angel kept them free from that violent fire.
People willing to die in order to have a better resurrection - Hebrews 11:35 B
The women who had their son's resurrected in Elijah's day died again, but the ' better resurrection ' would be or take place on Resurrection Day ( meaning Jesus' Millennium-Long Day governing over Earth for a thousand years ) when the last enemy 'death' will be brought to nothing as pointed out at 1 Corinthians 15:26 ( Isaiah 25:8 )

 

[Muffled]

You are continuing the "sick" behaviour of your predecessors..
..pointing to "Arius" and claiming that it was all his fault that people believed that a man is not God.
Jews are not "Christians" either, but they are believers, as are others who believe that a man cannot be God.


Ridiculous. "trinity belief" was enforced by Roman Empire builders, and God knows why they declared war on their fellow believers in the OT and Jesus. The NT never existed in the time of Jesus.


I totally agree with you there..

I believe these may claim to believe in God but by rejecting Him in Jesus, they are just as guilty as those who declare God's word is not in the Qu'ran.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I believe the Garden of Eden may have been a paradise but the paradise Jesus speaks of is not on this planet.

True, heavenly paradise is in heaven, and Jesus instructed us to pray that God's will (God's purpose) be done here on Earth as it is done in Heaven.
So, yes we are praying for heavenly conditions to come and exist on Earth just as they exist in heaven.
In heaven there is No crime, No violence, No war, No pollution, No sickness nor any death in heaven ( No body goes to heaven to die in heaven, No tombs in heaven ) we are asking those healthy conditions to come exist on Earth.
Please notice where Jesus brings ' healing ' Not to heaven but to earth's nations - Revelation 22:2

Jesus did Not go to heaven the day he died. Jesus went to the grave /hell the day he died - Acts of the Apostles 2:27
So, the un-baptised robber was Not promised heaven the day he died, rather Jesus told him truly I tell you today ( comma ) you will be ( future tense ) with me ( Not in heaven, but in an earthly paradise )
To qualify for heaven one must be baptised and be like the ones mentioned at Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18

 

[muhammad_isa]

I believe the Garden of Eden may have been a paradise but the paradise Jesus speaks of is not on this planet.

Agreed upon.

 

[Dogknox20]

Even perfect people have free-will choices.
Married Adam used his free will to do wrong.
Adam in his sinless state did Not choose to jump off a mountain.

Adam and Eve were husband and wife ( meaning: they were Not virgins - Genesis 2:24 )
Because God created all in heaven (angels) and people on earth as free to choose then God gifted that to creation.
So, No, it was by free-willed choice both Satan and Adam chose wrong freely - James 1:13-15
In other words, God forces nor makes any one to worship Him.

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URAVIP2ME good post and I add this to it.... To sin is to not do what God commands "Love one another"!
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

1 John 3:24
The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit, he gave us.

1 John 5:3
In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

URAVIP2ME The woman did not love Adam, He commanded her "Don't even touch the stinking tree"! She told the serpent we cannot touch the tree.... God did NOT command Adan not to touch the tree... So, it was Adam that commanded her. She did not do what her husband commanded!

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

You must have love to be in paradise they did not love so they were removed!

 

[Dogknox20]

I believe that applies to the temporal. However entry into the Kingdom of God and everlasting life is not dependent on a special case of mercy but on the person's willingness to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Muffled To receive Jesus as Lord and Savior is it to believe the words of "The Word"!
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

This verse is address to Nicodemus all the way to verse #21
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[pearl]

To me, this is showing purgatory is based on church tradition over sacred Scripture.

What it is showing is we are obliged to penetrate anew, in language and concept, what the patristic dogmas truly signify, and how Scripture was being interpreted.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

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URAVIP2ME good post and I add this to it.... To sin is to not do what God commands "Love one another"!
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
1 John 3:24
The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit, he gave us.
1 John 5:3
In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
URAVIP2ME The woman did not love Adam, He commanded her "Don't even touch the stinking tree"! She told the serpent we cannot touch the tree.... God did NOT command Adam not to touch the tree... So, it was Adam that commanded her. She did not do what her husband commanded!
2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
You must have love to be in paradise they did not love so they were removed!

Yes, and God 'IS' love (1 John 4:16) and Jesus' New Commandment is about having the same self-sacrificing love of loving others as Jesus does - John 13:34-35

Apparently Eve wanted to be her own goddess ____
Yes, Eve said that God said....not touch the tree;... - Genesis 3:2-3
No mention about touching at Genesis 2:17
Sinner Satan stresses the 'eating' at Genesis 3:5. No mention of Satan saying anything about touching.
Good to ask Abel about it on Resurrection Day (Jesus' Millennium-Long Day governing over Earth )

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What it is showing is we are obliged to penetrate anew, in language and concept, what the patristic dogmas truly signify, and how Scripture was being interpreted.

I find the 66 Bible books are in harmony because of corresponding cross-reference verses and passages showing the internal harmony among the Bible writers, so the apocryphal books simply exclude themselves being out of harmony with the harmonious 66 and Not from how Scripture was being interpreted.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

........... To receive Jesus as Lord and Savior is it to believe the words of "The Word"!
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
This verse is address to Nicodemus all the way to verse #21
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

I think we need to keep in mind that in John chapter 6 Jesus is addressing -> the Jewish people.
Remember they were already disappointed with Jesus turning down their offer to make him a political king at John 6:15
Remember too the setting or time frame for chapter 6 is Not the Last Supper but taking place one year earlier.
Those people would have known nothing about a Last Supper/Good Friday or the New Covenant for that matter.
At John 6:35 Jesus likens himself to the 'bread of life' aka Manna with Jesus being superior to Manna.
That would be because his flesh would have a permanent lasting effect which Manna did not.
At John chapter 6 Jesus stresses the resurrection day (John 6:40) Not saying a resurrection before the last day.
The 'last day' being Jesus' coming 1,000- year day governing over Earth for a thousand years. (Acts 24:15)
Also, at John 6:50 those Jews would have found Jesus' words to be literal and they knew to consume blood was like cannibalism so that was very repulsive to them - Genesis 9:4; Leviticus 17:10; 2 Kings 6:26-31.
Thus, long before John 6:53-56 Jesus stressed the doing of God's Will - John 6:38-40 - connecting God's Will with believing and belief connected to doing spiritual works, the works of God (John 6:27-29) to not work for perishable bread (Manna) but for Jesus as the figurative ' bread of life '.

 

[Dogknox20]

I think we need to keep in mind that in John chapter 6 Jesus is addressing -> the Jewish people.
Remember they were already disappointed with Jesus turning down their offer to make him a political king at John 6:15
Remember too the setting or time frame for chapter 6 is Not the Last Supper but taking place one year earlier.
Those people would have known nothing about a Last Supper/Good Friday or the New Covenant for that matter.
At John 6:35 Jesus likens himself to the 'bread of life' aka Manna with Jesus being superior to Manna.
That would be because his flesh would have a permanent lasting effect which Manna did not.
At John chapter 6 Jesus stresses the resurrection day (John 6:40) Not saying a resurrection before the last day.
The 'last day' being Jesus' coming 1,000- year day governing over Earth for a thousand years. (Acts 24:15)
Also, at John 6:50 those Jews would have found Jesus' words to be literal and they knew to consume blood was like cannibalism so that was very repulsive to them - Genesis 9:4; Leviticus 17:10; 2 Kings 6:26-31.
Thus, long before John 6:53-56 Jesus stressed the doing of God's Will - John 6:38-40 - connecting God's Will with believing and belief connected to doing spiritual works, the works of God (John 6:27-29) to not work for perishable bread (Manna) but for Jesus as the figurative ' bread of life '.

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URAVIP2ME what you say is all very good .... except ...the part where Jesus being the figurative ' bread of life '.
Christians have always eaten the flesh of God in the form of bread! God took the form of a man 2000 years ago; people could not believe a Man could be God Now...

URAVIP2ME now today two thousand years later people cannot wrap their mind around God taking the form of bread!
I point to the apostle Paul he ate the flesh of Jesus in the form of bread!
1 Cor 11:27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.

Judas condemned himself when he ate the flesh of Jesus at the last supper! Without discerning the body of Christ eat Judas ate judgment on himself.

1 Cor 1016 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.55 For my flesh is real food....
Look...
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
URAVIP2ME These disciples (above) left Jesus after he taught my flesh if real food! They walked away! Note... Jesus does not call them back! Jesus does not correct himself, he does Not say "Don't go, I did not mean to say what I said!" & "All I said was metaphor"! Fact is....

URAVIP2ME fact is Jesus turns to his apostles and asks them "are you also going to leave me"!
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.

The Apostles believe Jesus they believe his teaching... "My flesh is real food"

 

[Muffled]

True, heavenly paradise is in heaven, and Jesus instructed us to pray that God's will (God's purpose) be done here on Earth as it is done in Heaven.
So, yes we are praying for heavenly conditions to come and exist on Earth just as they exist in heaven.
In heaven there is No crime, No violence, No war, No pollution, No sickness nor any death in heaven ( No body goes to heaven to die in heaven, No tombs in heaven ) we are asking those healthy conditions to come exist on Earth.
Please notice where Jesus brings ' healing ' Not to heaven but to earth's nations - Revelation 22:2

Jesus did Not go to heaven the day he died. Jesus went to the grave /hell the day he died - Acts of the Apostles 2:27
So, the un-baptised robber was Not promised heaven the day he died, rather Jesus told him truly I tell you today ( comma ) you will be ( future tense ) with me ( Not in heaven, but in an earthly paradise )
To qualify for heaven one must be baptised and be like the ones mentioned at Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18

I believe you are in error. As Jesus was one with the Father while in the body He most surely is one with the Father out of the body and God is omnipresent.

I believe like most people you are confused by heaven and Heaven. Heaven is a place outside of time and space while heaven is the universe outside of earth. I believe Paradise is in heaven but not in Heaven. For that reason the thief can go there if for no other reason than Jesus said so.

I believe that is fantasy.

I believe that is false. I believe God will accept anyone in Heaven that He wishes whether or not some person thinks he qualifies.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..I believe God will accept anyone in Heaven that He wishes whether or not some person thinks he qualifies.

..which is contrary to what you are saying in another thread .. claiming that there is only one gate to heaven (paradise).

 

[Witches_Element]

Merry Meet Estro, I'm a witch among other things and feel I have a pretty good grip on purgatory. I don't think it would be appropriate to talk about the biblical implications on purgatory but would love to share some experiences with you if I may?

From my observations purgatory is the spiritual realm of Earth that can have interactions with our physical Earth. Time has no meaning in purgatory so a second could only be a moment of time or billions of years. The dearly departed souls I talked to in purgatory seem to all have common themes.

They are obsessed with the living, and some of them did not realized they died or in denial of their death so they pretend they are still alive. Others felt like their life was taken away too soon so they stay close to the living to continue on.

There are those that are afraid of going to hell or simply stop existing so they stay close to the living because they saw what happened to the people that crossed into the light, they never came back. They would rather risk staying in purgatory than risking their existence of a possible Heaven beyond the light.

I went to the foyer entrance to Heaven when I briefly died and had I passed through, I would not have been able to come back to Earth, and I so wanted to cross over, but a great King said it was not my time and He had to return me back to the living.

I did not see any evidence of Hell during my travels or contact with the dearly departed beings of purgatory and so sorry I can't confirm or deny it's existence. Perhaps it won't exist until final judgement time on the Earth. I'm sorry I really don't know about hell's existence.

I didn't see any evil non-human entities when I died, but I have had malicious entities from the spirit realm attack me in my life. It's really fun being a witch and I feel so blessed to be able to we witness first hand the physical and spirit realm of Earth as well as Heaven too!

 

[RR144]

Christians have always believed Hell is Eternal the same as Heaven is "Eternal"! The teaching of Charles Taze Russell go against what Christians have always believed!

Just because Christians believe something to be so, doesn't make it so.

 

[Tomef]

This question is addressed to Christians, particularly.
I am curious about the other people's stance, though.
So anyone can express their opinion on what Purgatory is.

Purgatory - Wikipedia

You can express your global vision on soteriology, as well. I would appreciate it, if you did.
Thank you in advance.

It’s been an excellent wealth creator for the church.

 

[Estro Felino]

It’s been an excellent wealth creator for the church.

When it deal with money...the Church is open to anything.
I bet the parson would even let a bride get married with a revealing, transparent dress in the church...in exchange for a very big sum of money.

 

[Tomef]

When it deal with money...the Church is open to anything.
I bet the parson would even let a bride get married with a revealing, transparent dress in the church...in exchange for a very big sum of money.

Could be. I heard pope Gregory tried to patent spaghetti. That would have been a good one.

 

[RR144]

So anyone can express their opinion on what Purgatory is.

It's a made up doctrine by the Church of Rome.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I understood that is no longer taught.