What do you think of Purgatory?

[SDavis]

This question is addressed to Christians, particularly.
I am curious about the other people's stance, though.
So anyone can express their opinion on what Purgatory is.

Purgatory - Wikipedia

You can express your global vision on soteriology, as well. I would appreciate it, if you did.
Thank you in advance.

I am a Christian - never gave thought to the term purgatory - but if I was to think on it it would be a resting place to judgement day for all the souls that were put in earthly bodies and lived a life on Earth and died....... The Bible says at the death of these bodies, the body goes back to the dust of the earth and the spirit goes back to God who gave it - separation of body and spirit.

View on a globle vision of soteriology- first time hearing of the word, looked it up. It is a common belief of salvation in some religions. Is it possible it's the same God just view differently by different people? I can only speak what the Christian Bible says in salvation is offered to each and every individual globally and it is up to them on whether they accept the terms or not. It's not just this nation or that Nation this culture of that culture from the view of Christianity that will stand before judgment but the entire world.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I am a Christian - never gave thought to the term purgatory - but if I was to think on it it would be a resting place to judgement day for all the souls that were put in earthly bodies and lived a life on Earth and died....... The Bible says at the death of these bodies, the body goes back to the dust of the earth and the spirit goes back to God who gave it - separation of body and spirit.

View on a globle vision of soteriology- first time hearing of the word, looked it up. It is a common belief of salvation in some religions. Is it possible it's the same God just view differently by different people? I can only speak what the Christian Bible says in salvation is offered to each and every individual globally and it is up to them on whether they accept the terms or not. It's not just this nation or that Nation this culture of that culture from the view of Christianity that will stand before judgment but the entire world.

I appreciate your thoughtful remarks.

The Catholic teaching of Purgatory is most similar to the Jewish idea of Gehinnom, a temporary hell where we are purified for the resurrection, or in Catholicism, for heaven.

Yeah, the idea that we need salvation from our sins is an idea pretty much limited to Christianity. For me as a Jew, its pretty simple. If I stumble, I repent and return to God's ways. No mediator needed, no Jesus necessary.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

To me, this is showing purgatory is based on church tradition over sacred Scripture.

I believe that Catholics do use the New Testament to back up their teaching of Purgatory, but it is perhaps better if you address this with Catholics than with me.

For me, the only textual evidence necessary for Catholic belief is the fact that the gospels in Greek do refer to Gehenna. Gehenna (or Gehinnom in Hebrew) is the Jewish teaching of a temporary hell where we are purified for the resurrection. Thus every time the New Testament mentions Gehenna, it is speaking of what Catholics call Purgatory.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Is that why "the church" creates statues of him?

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image

Tut, tut..

As a Jew, I'm really not big on religious statues.

That said, if you really listen with the intent to understand Catholics, what you will find is that these statues are inspirational art, not idols. They do not pray to statues or worship them. They talk to the saints the statues represent, asking for their prayers. They do not confuse these saints with God. I therefore don't think this violates the commandment not to make idols.

Do you think it was idolatry to put statues of cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant?

 

[Estro Felino]

I believe that Catholics do use the New Testament to back up their teaching of Purgatory, but it is perhaps better if you address this with Catholics than with me.

For me, the only textual evidence necessary for Catholic belief is the fact that the gospels in Greek do refer to Gehenna. Gehenna (or Gehinnom in Hebrew) is the Jewish teaching of a temporary hell where we are purified for the resurrection. Thus every time the New Testament mentions Gehenna, it is speaking of what Catholics call Purgatory.

The problem is that I have the impressions that non-Catholics tend to believe that all sins are equal.
Catechism teaches that, as in a criminal code, sins are so different than one another. There are serious or grave sins. There are venial sins.

Dante's work kinda explains the difference philosophically. Murder is not the same thing as gluttony or envy.

A gluttonous person may harm their own body. But they harm nobody else.

In Dante's world we can see the damage done unto others is central.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The problem is that I have the impressions that non-Catholics tend to believe that all sins are equal.

I understand. I have similarly met many protestants who make this claim. It's baffling to me.

Catechism teaches that, as in a criminal code, sins are so different than one another. There are serious or grave sins. There are venial sins.

I understand. In Judaism, there are clearly very different penalties for different sins. Some sins are capital punishment. Some require a fine. Some sins have no punishment at all.

 

[Estro Felino]

I understand. I have similarly met many protestants who make this claim. It's baffling to me.

I understand. In Judaism, there are clearly very different penalties for different sins. Some sins are capital punishment. Some require a fine. Some sins have no punishment at all.

I have read that somewhere.

Also because the Ancient Testament proves how David's sin was emendable because he repented.
That is mentioned in Catechism as an example.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Do you think it was idolatry to put statues of cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant?

As you say, not all sins are equal. There is major shirk, and minor shirk..
..but images are images .. and it would be better to avoid decorating our places
of worship with images of people and other creatures, imo.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I believe that Catholics do use the New Testament to back up their teaching of Purgatory, but it is perhaps better if you address this with Catholics than with me.
For me, the only textual evidence necessary for Catholic belief is the fact that the gospels in Greek do refer to Gehenna. Gehenna (or Gehinnom in Hebrew) is the Jewish teaching of a temporary hell where we are purified for the resurrection. Thus every time the New Testament mentions Gehenna, it is speaking of what Catholics call Purgatory.

At Jesus' death Jesus went to biblical hell aka temporary grave - Acts 2:27 - which is Not Gehenna
Gehenna was a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were: destroyed.
Thus, Gehenna is a fitting word for: destruction.
Please notice it is the 'wicked' who are ' destroyed forever ' - Psalms 92:7; 104:35; 145:20; Proverbs 2:21-22
Since the 'dead know nothing' but un-conscious sleep there is no purification in biblical hell.
- Psalms 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5 and also what Jesus taught at John 11:11-14

Purgatory would mean: punishment 'after' death for the conscious.
There was No post-mortem penalty for Adam, No double jeopardy to be paid for Adam and none for anyone else.
The total complete asking price tag and is Paid in Full for one's sins is found at Romans 6:7
The penalty for sin is stamped as Paid in Full at one's death.
Acquitted from sin does Not mean makes one innocent but shows the resurrected are Not judged on previous sins.
Both the righteous and unrighteous (just and unjust KJV) will have a future resurrection - Acts 24:15
What a person does 'after' they are resurrected will determine their everlasting future of eternal life or eternal death.

 

[Estro Felino]

Purgatory would mean: punishment 'after' death for the conscious.

Purgatory is not a punishment.
It's when the soul acknowledges they were sinful, and ask to be purified from sin.
Psalm 51 is about that. It's the symbol of Purgatory.
The cleansing of the soul.

In order to understand that, one needs a high degree of awareness.
The wicked are hopeless souls whose heart is darker than pitch, so they don't want to be purified because they don't even understand what purity is. They are lost souls, and belong in Hell.

May I advice you to read the Divine Comedy? In English, of course, and with a good explanation in English, so it's better understood.

Acquitted from sin does Not mean makes one innocent but shows the resurrected are Not judged on previous sins.
Both the righteous and unrighteous (just and unjust KJV) will have a future resurrection - Acts 24:15
What a person does 'after' they are resurrected will determine their everlasting future of eternal life or eternal death.

The Bible is filled with allegories.
The afterlife is a spiritual dimension we cannot understand fully.
It's all about good or evil, love or hatred.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

At Jesus' death Jesus went to biblical hell aka temporary grave - Acts 2:27 - which is Not Gehenna

Two comments:
1. The word used in the original Greek for Acts 2:27 says HADES. Hades was simply the abode of the dead, not hell, more comparable to Sheol in Judaism. NOT HELL.
2. I'm not sure why you think I would care about anything in the New Testament. Would you also like to quote the Quran? The Book of Mormon?

Gehenna was a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were: destroyed.
Thus, Gehenna is a fitting word for: destruction.

It is extremely common for words to have more than one definition. For example, a bat can be a flying mammal or a bat can be a stick you hit a ball with.

So yes, Gehenna can refer to the garbage dump outside Jerusalem.
It can ALSO refer to a temporary hell where we are purified for the resurrection.

Given the context of the gospel passages, it is quite clearly in those cases referring to the second example, a temporary hell.

Please notice it is the 'wicked' who are ' destroyed forever ' - Psalms 92:7; 104:35; 145:20; Proverbs 2:21-22
Since the 'dead know nothing' but un-conscious sleep there is no purification in biblical hell.
- Psalms 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5 and also what Jesus taught at John 11:11-14

I know this is going to be difficult for you to understand, because you are an inerrantist who thinks God dictated the Bible to a secretary. But the truth is that the Bible has many, many authors AND THEY DON'T ALWAYS AGREE. The truth is, depending on which passage you read,
1. there is no afterlife, you simply go to be with your fathers, IOW six feet under.
2. there is Sheol, the abode of the dead, the netherworld, which is neither for punishment nor for reward
3. there is Gehinnom, a temporary hell where souls are purified to wait for the Resurrection.

So take your pick.

Purgatory would mean: punishment 'after' death for the conscious.

Well the Catholic concept, although extremely close, does have its subtle differences. But yes, whether Purgatory or Gehinnom, the idea is that suffering will purify us, preparing us for eternity. Think of it as a school.

There was No post-mortem penalty for Adam, No double jeopardy to be paid for Adam and none for anyone else.
The total complete asking price tag and is Paid in Full for one's sins is found at Romans 6:7
The penalty for sin is stamped as Paid in Full at one's death.
Acquitted from sin does Not mean makes one innocent but shows the resurrected are Not judged on previous sins.
Both the righteous and unrighteous (just and unjust KJV) will have a future resurrection - Acts 24:15
What a person does 'after' they are resurrected will determine their everlasting future of eternal life or eternal death.

These are issues that you need to discuss in the Catholic room. Although a tiny bit of the Tanakh speaks of the afterlife, it just isn't important to us. The focus of Judaism is not heaven and hell, but right here on earth, obeying God, and repairing the world. The idea that we must be saved from our sins in order to enter heaven is completely foreign to us.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

As you say, not all sins are equal. There is major shirk, and minor shirk..

I'm baffled why you think this is relavant.

..but images are images ..

Clearly not, as the Torah literally commands that the Ark of the Covenant be adorned with statues of Cherubim.

You can't pull "graven images" out of the context of the second commandment. The FULL commandment is:
3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me. 4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

IOW the commandment above is about the worship of other GODS. Thus, three dimensional art does not always fall into this category, only that art which is worshiped as a god.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I have read that somewhere.

Also because the Ancient Testament proves how David's sin was emendable because he repented.
That is mentioned in Catechism as an example.

Yes, repentance is everything. Proverbs says, "The righteous man stumbles seven times, and rises up again."

In Judaism, repentance means going to the one you harmed and trying to make it right (unless doing so would cause harm). And then of course, you turn away from that sin and turn back to God's ways.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'm baffled why you think this is relavant..e

If you go into many churches, you will see a life-size statue of Jesus on a cross.

I consider it a sin to make graven images of Holy people (or G-d, as some people might believe).
..and many Christians bow to it, as they walk past etc.

Clearly not, as the Torah literally commands that the Ark of the Covenant be adorned with statues of Cherubim.

You can't pull "graven images" out of the context of the second commandment. The FULL commandment is:
3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me. 4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

IOW the commandment above is about the worship of other GODS. Thus, three dimensional art does not always fall into this category, only that art which is worshiped as a god.

Aren't 'we' being a bit pedantic?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Purgatory is not a punishment.
It's when the soul acknowledges they were sinful, and ask to be purified from sin.
Psalm 51 is about that. It's the symbol of Purgatory.
The cleansing of the soul.
In order to understand that, one needs a high degree of awareness.
The wicked are hopeless souls whose heart is darker than pitch, so they don't want to be purified because they don't even understand what purity is. They are lost souls, and belong in Hell.
May I advice you to read the Divine Comedy? In English, of course, and with a good explanation in English, so it's better understood.
The Bible is filled with allegories.
The afterlife is a spiritual dimension we cannot understand fully.
It's all about good or evil, love or hatred.

Since death is the total complete price to be paid for sin - Romans 6:7 - then one does Not have to ask to be purified from sin.
Thus, No double jeopardy to be paid after death, No post-mortem penalties in the grave.
In Psalm 51 we find David is alive, and like the rest of us we were born with human imperfection from father Adam.
Yes, the wilfully wicked will Not repent.
Dead Jesus was Not a lost soul while in hell - Acts 2:27
Biblical hell is: the temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead as Jesus and the OT both teach.
- Psalm 6:5; Psalm 13:3; Psalm 115:17; Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-14
Since the Bible teaches ' resurrection ' (John 6:40,44) that is the opposite of 'afterlife' ( being more alive after death ).
Yes, 'in the end' it's all about good or evil, love or hatred - 1st Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8
The righteous need to remain righteous, and the unrighteous need to become righteous - Acts 24:15
The figurative living 'sheep' at Jesus' soon coming Glory Time of separation for the living - Matthew 25:31-34,37 - need to remain righteous in order to gain everlasting life on Earth to be part of the humble meek who will inherit the Earth as Jesus promised at Matthew 5:5 from Psalm 37:9-11; Psalm 22:26

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If you go into many churches, you will see a life-size statue of Jesus on a cross.
I consider it a sin to make graven images of Holy people (or G-d, as some people might believe).
..and many Christians bow to it, as they walk past etc.
Aren't 'we' being a bit pedantic?

Jesus forewarned us that MANY would come in his name but prove false at Matthew 7:21-23
Christians ' walk by faith ' ( Not sited images ) according to 2nd Corinthians 5:7

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I'm baffled why you think this is relavant.

Clearly not, as the Torah literally commands that the Ark of the Covenant be adorned with statues of Cherubim.

You can't pull "graven images" out of the context of the second commandment. The FULL commandment is:
3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me. 4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
IOW the commandment above is about the worship of other GODS. Thus, three dimensional art does not always fall into this category, only that art which is worshiped as a god.

But the Ark of the Covenant, nor a model of it, was ever placed in any synagogues for people to see.
Bowing in front of an art object is a form of worship. - Isaiah 44:9-19; Jeremiah 51:17-18

 

[Frank Goad]

On this website it says purgatory might be real: Soul Sleep Heb.11 has the hall of the faithful who died Heb 12:1 tells us we are surrounded by a great crowd of witnesses. What kind of witnesses are these? Living ones who went before us. V.23 “to the general assembly and Church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect.” (the word for witnesses means those who are able to testify which certainly mean living ones).

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Two comments:
1. The word used in the original Greek for Acts 2:27 says HADES. Hades was simply the abode of the dead, not hell, more comparable to Sheol in Judaism. NOT HELL.
2. I'm not sure why you think I would care about anything in the New Testament. Would you also like to quote the Quran? The Book of Mormon?
It is extremely common for words to have more than one definition. For example, a bat can be a flying mammal or a bat can be a stick you hit a ball with.
So yes, Gehenna can refer to the garbage dump outside Jerusalem.
It can ALSO refer to a temporary hell where we are purified for the resurrection.
Given the context of the gospel passages, it is quite clearly in those cases referring to the second example, a temporary hell.
I know this is going to be difficult for you to understand, because you are an inerrantist who thinks God dictated the Bible to a secretary. But the truth is that the Bible has many, many authors AND THEY DON'T ALWAYS AGREE. The truth is, depending on which passage you read,
1. there is no afterlife, you simply go to be with your fathers, IOW six feet under.
2. there is Sheol, the abode of the dead, the netherworld, which is neither for punishment nor for reward
3. there is Gehinnom, a temporary hell where souls are purified to wait for the Resurrection.
So take your pick.
Well the Catholic concept, although extremely close, does have its subtle differences. But yes, whether Purgatory or Gehinnom, the idea is that suffering will purify us, preparing us for eternity. Think of it as a school.
These are issues that you need to discuss in the Catholic room. Although a tiny bit of the Tanakh speaks of the afterlife, it just isn't important to us. The focus of Judaism is not heaven and hell, but right here on earth, obeying God, and repairing the world. The idea that we must be saved from our sins in order to enter heaven is completely foreign to us.

Interesting that you say the focus of Judaism is Not heaven and hell, but right here on 'earth'.......
In the teachings of Jesus we find the focus is but right here on 'earth'.
This is why Jesus at Matthew 5:5 referred back to the old Hebrew scriptures at Psalm 37:9-11; Psalm 22:26 that humble meek people will inherit the EARTH.
An Earth that will be as described by Isaiah's beautiful paradisical word picture in the 35th chapter of Isaiah.
The figurative 'sheep' at Jesus coming Glory Time (Matt. 25:31-34,37) will be the first to benefit from what Jesus promised.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

But the Ark of the Covenant, nor a model of it, was ever placed in any synagogues for people to see.

How does that make any difference?

Bowing in front of an art object is a form of worship. - Isaiah 44:9-19; Jeremiah 51:17-18

Bowing is not always worship. In Japan, people bow when they meet each other. I used to do Kung Fu, and bowed out of respect to my Sifu. You see, it means different things to different cultures. I don't expect people of other cultures to have my Jewish traditions.