What do you think of these Twenty Virtues Essential for Wisdom?

[stvdv]

This list looks like having a clear bias towards Hinduism

Not surprisingly, as it was given by Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita

especially with regard to “reverential service towards the spiritual teacher”

In Hinduism, also "Higher Self" can be seen as Spiritual Teacher. I take my conscience also as my Teacher. Anyone who teaches me a valuable lesson, I consider my Teacher. Also the Bible can be used as a Spiritual Teacher. Many times animals teach me valuable Spiritual lessons

“absence of attachment to family and home”

I explained here a bit more about absence of attachment What do you think of these Twenty Virtues Essential for Wisdom?
I do not see that as Hindu teaching per se. In Europe we also have monasteries. One can be having a family, and still be not attached. I read quite a few books about such Saints, while I was in India. Also my favorite book, the Yoga Vasistha, explains this

 

[stvdv]

“absence of interest to having company of the “worldly minded”.

I see this not as special Hindu Teaching, though I also see this more in Hinduism and also Buddhism. I even had this a bit when I never knew about India. Since I have been focusing on Spiritual life, I am more interested in Spiritual life, which is natural. Whatever I set my mind to, whatever will increase my interest. I have no interest to go and party, or going to bars. I think that is natural. Since 3 years I set my mind to RF, and I notice a certain attachment already.

My father is currently about the age of Ajamila (from the Srimad Bhagavatam), yet he still works and helped me a lot in my life as I’m chronically ill.

Good example, your father, of what I would call "Karma Yoga". I wish you all the best, I know all about chronically ill and it's challenges

Had I grown up in another culture, I probably might have ended on the street.

#MeToo, or probably "under the street"

I also got the impression that a “proper Hindu” probably should love his guru more than wife and children.

Sai Baba taught us ... see God in your wife, children. If you speak harshly to your wife, you hurt Me too. I think what is meant here is "to not be attached to worldly love (desires)", which is different from Love towards God.

To be fair, there is a verse in the New Testament (Matthew 10:37) stating “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.”

I see this in a similar way as explained above

Still, the “Christian ideal” is for people to be in groups and to care about and help each other (I do acknowledge that theory and practice are sometimes worlds apart …) I think this is the reason why proselytizing denominations like Hare Krishna are strongly group-focused, whereas devotion in traditional temples seems more like an individual affair to me.

That is nice I think. So, for different people there are different solutions

As for which concept I like better, I really love the individuality concept of Hinduism, but for the rest, I may be biased, but I think as a Hindu in a Western country, you probably fare better.

I am also more interested in the "individual concept" of Hinduism. And I appreciate the West too.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Cleanliness is good, but don't know how that leads to wisdom.

@stvdv

Cleanliness is a very wise part of life. It is a major part of the teaching of a religion and its wisdom is also now found in science.

So we can assume the Wisdom lays in the practice of cleanliness.

So maybe we can consider that Wisdom is gained, only by the practice of Virtues.

Regards Tony

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Absence in interest in the worldly minded is what it says there, and that means to me not being interested in being friends with those who deny spiritual realities, who think that the material world is all there is, and act accordingly.

Yup. And even those who are a worldly mind have much to offer. That sort of self imposed segregation is never good. It creates insular societies as well as bigotry and discrimination towards outsiders and others.
If I can be friends with Christians and Conservatives and far-Right Libertarians then this point especially is folly and indefensible.
Some would say it is against the ideals of loving your neighbor as your self.

s not anti-social to me, to me it doesn't mean not having a family or not spending time with the family, to me it means not being needy about wanting the affection of your wife and children. If you needy about wanting the affection of your children, that gets in the way of raising your children to be good people, you need to not spoil them and discipline them sometimes, and they may get mad at you temporarily for that.

It doesn't say needy or clingy or insecure or possessive.
It says not to have attachments to family. That is anti-social.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Cleanliness is a very wise part of life. It is a major part of the teaching of a religion and its wisdom is also now found in science.

What exactly is cleanliness? Impossible moral and thought cleanliness? The excessive cleanliness of America that was born of corporate drives for profit? Standards of old which were actually way more clean than we tend to think?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What exactly is cleanliness? Impossible moral and thought cleanliness? The excessive cleanliness of America that was born of corporate drives for profit? Standards of old which were actually way more clean than we tend to think?

Mind, body and actions. As In all things moderation is required, but there are also times when a high levels of practice are required, Like a hospital operating environment, or when one wants to offer praise to God.

Regards Tony

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Mind, body and actions. As In all things moderation is required, but there are also times when a high levels of practice are required, Like a hospital operating environment, or when one wants to offer praise to God.

Regards Tony

Actions are far more important than what goes on in a mind. If thoughts actually mattered I'd be a very guilty, horrible, terrible, nasty person.
But what are "clean actions"? Are these victimless crimes, things that make uptight prudes go "icky," or just basic pro-social behaviors that most people are wired to act on anyways?
And what standard for bodily cleanliness? Some think you have to shower once or twice a day, every day or you aren't clean. Some only bathe when there is visible dirt on the body.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Actions are far more important than what goes on in a mind. If thoughts actually mattered I'd be a very guilty, horrible, terrible, nasty person.
But what are "clean actions"? Are these victimless crimes, things that make uptight prudes go "icky," or just basic pro-social behaviors that most people are wired to act on anyways?
And what standard for bodily cleanliness? Some think you have to shower once or twice a day, every day or you aren't clean. Some only bathe when there is visible dirt on the body.

These are all things that a peaceful world can spend time investigating in greater detail, that day will come.

Yes it is because our minds are connected and as the majority of the world let's go of morality and virtues, this in turn is projected to others.

We can replace those thoughts when we realise they are there. This is a strong teaching in my faith that impressed me when I first came across it. It made me consider many things, even what I choose to watch, so I in turn do not help project what is not moral and virtuous.

Regards Tony

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes it is because our minds are connected and as the majority of the world let's go of morality and virtues, this in turn is projected to others.

Projected onto others? I'm often cursing people on the road, speaking ill in my head about some people, yeah, I get nasty at times. Once picking up a passenger the first thing I see of this person is a full view of her panty, and I did think "Ewww, Imma get skank juice in my car." But that wasn't reflected in how I treated her. Nor did I ask the lady who had her taxadermied dog along with her "what in the ****ing **** is your problem," although I assure you I was thinking it.
And why would I replace these thoughts? They are automatic, happen, and not problematic. I know these are thoughts that shouldn't leave my head, and thus they don't.

 

[Nakosis]

What do you think of these Twenty Virtues Essential for Wisdom?

Are they do-able, useful, a bit too much, or plain rubbish in your opinion?

You think Wisdom is possible without these, or that more is needed, or something else?

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For me, wisdom comes from making mistakes and dealing with the consequences of those mistakes.
Eventually learning what not to do so you don't have to deal with those undesirable consequences.

Are these virtues the end result of this? Maybe but you don't get to the moon by pointing at it.

Some of these virtues, yes I can see that.
Others seem idealism. What someone might think they ought to be. Not so realistic or practical.

 

[stvdv]

For me, wisdom comes from making mistakes and dealing with the consequences of those mistakes.

I would call this knowledge and/or experience, not wisdom though. But I do agree, that making mistakes is a good way of knowing what to avoid

Are these virtues the end result of this? Maybe but you don't get to the moon by pointing at it.

In the end it does say: Oh Lord, you said that 20 virtues are essential, for becoming entitled to wisdom
So, that covers what you were saying

Some of these virtues, yes I can see that.
Others seem idealism. What someone might think they ought to be. Not so realistic or practical.

When I read them they are quite practical to me. Some are not easy, so indeed still an ideal, but I like to "aim high" (not to high of course)

 

[Nakosis]

I would call this knowledge and/or experience, not wisdom though. But I do agree, that making mistakes is a good way of knowing what to avoid

I see wisdom as the ability to make good/beneficial choices. What do you see wisdom as?

In the end it does say: Oh Lord, you said that 20 virtues are essential, for becoming entitled to wisdom
So, that covers what you were saying

I can't say exactly how I became who I am. I was aware of some of these ideals and maybe they occasionally guided my choices but for example from the consequences of conceit I learn the benefits of humility. The pain of attachment taught me to let go. Maybe it would have been best to strive for the ideal but it's not who I was.

When I read them they are quite practical to me. Some are not easy, so indeed still an ideal, but I like to "aim high" (not to high of course)

I generally have to learn the practicality of a thing the hard way. Likely there are people about more gifted than myself. We all have our own path to walk.

 

[stvdv]

I see wisdom as the ability to make good/beneficial choices. What do you see wisdom as?

I would not call myself Wise, because I see the Wise as "living their lives with virtues like the ones in the OP", and I mess up still. And some of those virtues are really advanced, and only a Self Realized soul can live that way it seems to me

I can't say exactly how I became who I am. I was aware of some of these ideals and maybe they occasionally guided my choices but for example from the consequences of conceit I learn the benefits of humility. The pain of attachment taught me to let go. Maybe it would have been best to strive for the ideal but it's not who I was.

I am the same, I don't strive for the ideal, I just deal with the challenges I get in the best way I can. My Master taught us "take one virtue and do that one the best you can ... others will follow automatically". I choose to speak the truth. And surrender to my Master (surrender is not something that you can switch on, at least not for me. It is a gradual process of letting go attachments, like you described "realizing they really make me not happy")

We all have our own path to walk.

YES. We are all unique, so each has his/her own path which is best for them.

 

[ecco]

What do you think of these Twenty Virtues Essential for Wisdom?

Are they do-able, useful, a bit too much, or plain rubbish in your opinion?

You think Wisdom is possible without these, or that more is needed, or something else?

View attachment 53890

If one lives in solitude, one needn't worry about vanity or humility or violence or egotism.

I suppose cleanliness and control of the senses would be good to hold on to.

 

[Truthseeker]

Hindu thought is very precise. So, our thoughts, words and deeds need to be clean, where inner cleanliness is very important (thoughts, senses)

Inner cleanliness makes sense, We call that being pure. Pure for us can be inner or outer. I don't know why I didn't see cleanliness the same way.

I also consider humility very important, and "lack of humility" might be a deal breaker
But humility alone is insufficient, hence I would not call it the most important one

I think I see how you're looking at this. You're looking at this in holistic way. Also later on in this exchange it has been revealed that absence of egotism is superior to humility.

I don't know if it can be overdone, to think for oneself seems good to me, to always think for oneself is always good.

What I'm getting at is that we need to get out in the world sometimes, but solitude is needed sometimes for us to develop thinking for ourselves. Consultation with others can also help us find the truth. I don't mean debating here, but consultation. We can learn from others.

Big difference to me. "Absence of egotism" is absolute, whereas humility has various degrees

Ah! Then absence of egotism is more important than humility. Didn't notice the word "absence" quite in the right way.

This exchange has been enlightening to me. It shows the importance of consultation in finding truth.

 

[Truthseeker]

@stvdv

Cleanliness is a very wise part of life. It is a major part of the teaching of a religion and its wisdom is also now found in science.

So we can assume the Wisdom lays in the practice of cleanliness.

So maybe we can consider that Wisdom is gained, only by the practice of Virtues.

Regards Tony

I don't know why I didn't think of this, but the author of this thread said to me that cleanliness can be both inner and outer, the same way we see the word "pure".

 

[Quagmire]

Wonder if there's a corresponding "20 vices essential for foolishness".

 

[Truthseeker]

Yup. And even those who are a worldly mind have much to offer. That sort of self imposed segregation is never good. It creates insular societies as well as bigotry and discrimination towards outsiders and others.
If I can be friends with Christians and Conservatives and far-Right Libertarians then this point especially is folly and indefensible.
Some would say it is against the ideals of loving your neighbor as your self.

What I said originally is a little misleading. What I mean is people who's character has been corroded by living on only the material plane of existence. There's the danger there that if you associate too closely with such people your own character will be corroded also. You can also love them at the same time. Conversely if you associate with people with good behavior and attitude this can help improve your own character.

It doesn't say needy or clingy or insecure or possessive.
It says not to have attachments to family. That is anti-social.

Perhaps you might a little bit of a point. I'll modify that to saying attachment to family means needing a family to me. That's not anti-social to me, it means you can have a family or not have one and it doesn't affect you that much. Having friends is sufficient.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't know why I didn't think of this, but the author of this thread said to me that cleanliness can be both inner and outer, the same way we see the word "pure".

It does indeed mean both inner and outer.

Regards Tony

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What I said originally is a little misleading. What I mean is people who's character has been corroded by living on only the material plane of existence. There's the danger there that if you associate too closely with such people your own character will be corroded also. You can also love them at the same time. Conversely if you associate with people with good behavior and attitude this can help improve your own character.

Nope. Still morally pretentious and "hollieir than thou." "Living on only the material plane of existence"? That sounds like basically all atheists and agnostics.

Perhaps you might a little bit of a point. I'll modify that to saying attachment to family means needing a family to me. That's not anti-social to me, it means you can have a family or not have one and it doesn't affect you that much. Having friends is sufficient.

Family we do need though. A healthy, happy, functional family is one of the greatest things a child can have growing up in regards to being a healthy, well adjusted adult. Family bonds are so deep we see many of them throughout nature, existing in basically every social species of animal. It's not good to be needy as in clingy and having to have them for attention, but the very phrase "absence of attachment to family" is a tragedy, not a virtue.