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What Does "Feminism" Mean to You?

Mr. Skittles

Active Member
Even the quickest and laziest of glances would indicate that a.) everyone is aware that there are females who objectify themselves and b.) most feminists would indicate that self-objectification is the result of pressures exerted by a patriarchal society.

I doubt it. A female who sells drugs and have sex for money doesn't do so because the pressures of a patriarchal society its because of capitalistic values. Many impoverished people with an opportunity to make fast cash without the troubles of working an 8, 10, 12 hour shift do so for socioeconomic reasons.

The same with strippers and porn stars. Saying its patriarchal pressure is a cop out excuse by some feminist. A potential porn star could easily work at a burger joint making federal minimum wage.
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
Pimps are extortionists pure and simple.

There is no difference between saying, "I will beat your *** if you don't give me your wallet." and saying, "I will beat your *** if you don't go suck that guy off and make me my money."

Pardon the course language. But I think we might leave sociopaths out of the conversation. Its not fair to paint anyone with that brush that doesn't deserve it. I am not a pimp when I patron a strip joint. That's not the same thing by any means.
 

Mr. Skittles

Active Member
Pimps are extortionists pure and simple.

There is no difference between saying, "I will beat your *** if you don't give me your wallet." and saying, "I will beat your *** if you don't go suck that guy off and make me my money."

Pardon the course language. But I think we might leave sociopaths out of the conversation. Its not fair to paint anyone with that brush that doesn't deserve it. I am not a pimp when I patron a strip joint. That's not the same thing by any means.

LoL pimps are not always beating their girls lol I guess cause I live in Los Angeles I see it all the time. A pimp can be a college student who convinces his girlfriend to have sex for money. A pimp can be a guy who considers himself a swinger and uses his wife to get her to have sex with random guys for money. A pimp can be a highschool kid. A pimp can be a female who convinces other women to sell themselves. Pimps typically are street psychologist
 

Mr. Skittles

Active Member
Not all feminists are against porn. I am one who is fully in favor of it.



Why not? Sure women enable it just as much as men do and I don't like it when some women blame it all on men but how does that translate to not being able to point out that there are men out there who do indeed objectify women?



Yup, which is why I'm not against porn. And I will agree that it is dumb for a woman to be in favor of prostitution yet against porn or vice versa, but not all women or all feminists are like that. As I said, many have no problem with porn.


Yes pimps are a problem but this is more often an issue in situations where prostitution is illegal and thus unregulated.

Just because sex is present doesn't mean it's objectification, though yes a lot of feminists make the mistake of thinking that, they are not representative of feminism as a whole since feminism is very diverse with numerous theories and groups all with their own ideas. It's not one homogenous thing and you and anyone else who is against feminism should really do some research into the different groups and theories that fall under it's umbrella before you dismiss the entire group out of hand simply because some of the women who proclaim feminism leave a bad taste in your mouth. I mean there are a lot of christians who leave a bad taste in my mouth but I don't dismiss all christians or call all christianity crap because of it. Why do that with feminism?

I am aware there are variations of feminism. My criticism is coming from what they are currently teaching at universities but then again I guess it depends on the professor or visiting professor.

I guess you can say in my experiences in women's studies my views about feminism are warped due to the constant nitpicking about patriarchy and "men this, women don't do that" I am hardpressed to believe feminism has any good.

Why not have a men's studies class where we nitpick biased feminin values and the dodging of female responsibility?

Maybe because you consider yourself a feminist perhaps you may not see my point but after a semester of trashing men I am not a fan of feminism and the lack of responsibility women don't up to.
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
LoL pimps are not always beating their girls lol I guess cause I live in Los Angeles I see it all the time. A pimp can be a college student who convinces his girlfriend to have sex for money. A pimp can be a guy who considers himself a swinger and uses his wife to get her to have sex with random guys for money. A pimp can be a highschool kid. A pimp can be a female who convinces other women to sell themselves. Pimps typically are street psychologist

In other words, you have no idea what extortion entails. Keep laughing.
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
Let's have a definition of feminism.

what is the purpose of it?

why don't women just celebrate being women?
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
How is it a double standard to say a woman can do what she want's with her body?

Because if a woman gets paid to appear on an ad looking sexy, it is suddenly an evil ad that """objectifies""" women, but when she """objectifies""" herself for money, it is okay.

What you simply try to say is: using women´s sexuality to earn money.

May happen for the women cause she is a prostitute, or may happen because someone is selling beer and the women posed for the ad or acted in the commercial.

Anyways, not big deal. Prostitution should be regularised if done, but those who are not against well regularized prostitution shouldn´t be against ads that use female sexuality to sell stuff.

It ends up being pretty much the same, and I would say that the prositute is """objectifiying""" herself far more than the woman at the ad. Still, it is a silly concept. No one forgets the woman is a woman simply because she looks hot.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
I am aware there are variations of feminism. My criticism is coming from what they are currently teaching at universities but then again I guess it depends on the professor or visiting professor.

I guess you can say in my experiences in women's studies my views about feminism are warped due to the constant nitpicking about patriarchy and "men this, women don't do that" I am hardpressed to believe feminism has any good.

Why not have a men's studies class where we nitpick biased feminin values and the dodging of female responsibility?

Maybe because you consider yourself a feminist perhaps you may not see my point but after a semester of trashing men I am not a fan of feminism and the lack of responsibility women don't up to.

One semester of nitpicking - not of men - but of patriarchy. I hear nitpicking all the time from patriarchy of scapegoating women, how women deserve to be beat because they pushed a man's buttons, how a woman was raped because she dressed too sexy, how a woman needs to understand she isn't as equipped to handle the battlefield because men are naturally stronger, how boys will be boys, etc. It's ingrained in society, Skittles.

One semester.....oh, boo-hoo.

What did the professor teach out of those "nitpickings"? What did you learn? Why did you take the class in the first place?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I've known a couple female type feminists who amused me greatly by dissing U of M's Women's Studies programs for being victimhood obsessed,
anti-male & useless. They thought it beneath women to take courses designed to cater to women. Ain't diversity of thought wonderful?
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
I've known a couple female type feminists who amused me greatly by dissing U of M's Women's Studies programs for being victimhood obsessed,
anti-male & useless. They thought it beneath women to take courses designed to cater to women. Ain't diversity of thought wonderful?

Absolutely. :yes:

Usually I ask what the course material is to see how it's anti-male though, but to be clear...

Anti-patriarchy =/= anti-male.It's very important to make that distinction, since I have seen that confusion often.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
I doubt it. A female who sells drugs and have sex for money doesn't do so because the pressures of a patriarchal society its because of capitalistic values. Many impoverished people with an opportunity to make fast cash without the troubles of working an 8, 10, 12 hour shift do so for socioeconomic reasons.

The same with strippers and porn stars.

No one stated that economics and patriarchy aren't intertwined. Not sure how selling drugs was added to that. I still don't see how when money is involved, the exploitation somehow disappears suddenly.

Saying its patriarchal pressure is a cop out excuse by some feminist.

Which one?

A potential porn star could easily work at a burger joint making federal minimum wage.

I imagine that the majority of potential porn stars could do all sorts of work if they so chose to. For a skillless woman to have to choose between a lucrative career and put out or a non-livable one where only can expect only one **** in the *** seems to me not really helping the case. The majority of feminist theorists are not anti-pornography.
 

MoonWater

Warrior Bard
Premium Member
Because if a woman gets paid to appear on an ad looking sexy, it is suddenly an evil ad that """objectifies""" women, but when she """objectifies""" herself for money, it is okay.

What you simply try to say is: using women´s sexuality to earn money.

May happen for the women cause she is a prostitute, or may happen because someone is selling beer and the women posed for the ad or acted in the commercial.

Anyways, not big deal. Prostitution should be regularised if done, but those who are not against well regularized prostitution shouldn´t be against ads that use female sexuality to sell stuff.

It ends up being pretty much the same, and I would say that the prositute is """objectifiying""" herself far more than the woman at the ad. Still, it is a silly concept. No one forgets the woman is a woman simply because she looks hot.

Let's just get one thing straight. I don't have a problem with sexuality being used to sell stuff. My only issue is that, at least in the united states, it is done almost exclusively with women's sexuality, and the form used is very stereotypical, very homogenous(same), and very fake/manufactured.

If it were less of those things and more universal using men and women I would not have much of a problem with it.

You also have to consider that ads reach a much wider audience then a prostitute could ever hope to and the psychology of advertising is very different from that of prostitution or being a striper.

Though I will agree that anyone who is in favor of prostitution and yet is completely against any form of female sexuality in ads is portraying a bit of a double standard.

The presence of sexuality does not automatically equal sexual objectification.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Let's just get one thing straight. I don't have a problem with sexuality being used to sell stuff. My only issue is that, at least in the united states, it is done almost exclusively with women's sexuality, and the form used is very stereotypical, very homogenous(same), and very fake/manufactured.

That´s way more than one thing :D

You´ll have to tell me what you mean by stereotypical an homogenous. If by "stereotypical and homogenous" you mean they use the image of beauty in most people´s head, then you have a problem with it being functional.

About fake/manufactured, I am sorry to tell you no person on an ad truly has the emotion the ad tells you, they are just being paid for displaying it ;)

If it were less of those things and more universal using men and women I would not have much of a problem with it.

It´s slowly starting to happen, men´s sexuality is also being used for ads. It is going to take it´s time but I´d say in 20 years at least, it should be a lot more equitative.

You also have to consider that ads reach a much wider audience then a prostitute could ever hope to and the psychology of advertising is very different from that of prostitution or being a striper.

Though I will agree that anyone who is in favor of prostitution and yet is completely against any form of female sexuality in ads is portraying a bit of a double standard.

The presence of sexuality does not automatically equal sexual objectification.

Interesting last phrase. A woman dancing in a pole is prone to pretty much look sexual and that´s it, primary emotion will be lust. I don´t see pole dancing as wrong.

I don´t know, most of the "objectification" thing seems like garbage to me. They just dont like women using their sex to further brands and cant accept sexuality as a legitimate emotion of the human female so if it only has that they say they are being "objectified". Which makes sense when coming from the same group of people who are against porn.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
A woman dancing in a pole is prone to pretty much look sexual and that´s it....

As someone who's seen a few pole dances, please allow me to suggest that seeing the dancer as primarily or exclusively a sex object is not a requirement. There is nothing that forces you to see her that way. It is merely the choice of some -- but not all -- viewers to see dancers that way.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
As someone who's seen a few pole dances, please allow me to suggest that seeing the dancer as primarily or exclusively a sex object is not a requirement. There is nothing that forces you to see her that way. It is merely the choice of some -- but not all -- viewers to see dancers that way.

Same here. I love watching pole dancers and see it as a form of art.

A woman expressing her sexuality does not equate to her objectifying herself. But if a woman is being viewed strictly for her sexuality and nothing else......well, I keep repeating myself in the slim hope that somebody will get it.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I see the body as a form of art too. To be able to move the body into shapes that are pleasing to the eye is worse or better than being able to transform steel, wood and concrete into a pleasing looking dwelling place? Equality says IT'S THE SAME.

Feminists recognize the talent of one person (male) being no better because he is Male than the talent of another person (female) because she is Female.

That's my answer

Btw an architect needs to be educated in it, though a dancer does not, but an education does not make a better person either imho.
 

MoonWater

Warrior Bard
Premium Member
That´s way more than one thing :D

You´ll have to tell me what you mean by stereotypical an homogenous. If by "stereotypical and homogenous" you mean they use the image of beauty in most people´s head, then you have a problem with it being functional.

Meaning that they all use basically the same kind of sexuality, that of a woman desperately lusting after and throwing herself at any decent looking guy willing to do her regardless of whether or not she knows him and always putting the woman in the submissive role. And the fact that this is stereotypical shows that it is NOT the image of beauty or sex in most people's heads. It may be assumed to be but that does not make it so. The only way to know the image in most people's heads is to ask most people what the image in their heads is. By and large advertising uses stereotypes to try and sell it's products which in turn only serves to reinforce those stereotypes in people's minds.

About fake/manufactured, I am sorry to tell you no person on an ad truly has the emotion the ad tells you, they are just being paid for displaying it ;)

I am well aware of that and it's not about the emotion being portrayed. What I'm talking about is how advertisers will use computers to drastically alter the models' appearances in the final product, to the point where you wonder why they bother taking a picture of a real woman at all. As such nearly every woman shown in ads, or at least sexually driven ads, is a woman who doesn't actually exist. Fake women are used to advertise products to us through stereotypical portrayals of sexuality that show always show the woman as desperate, submissive or both. The fact that so many ads do this serves only to reinforce stereotypes.


It´s slowly starting to happen, men´s sexuality is also being used for ads. It is going to take it´s time but I´d say in 20 years at least, it should be a lot more equitative.

I hope so but at the same time I hope it doesn't go down the same roads of portrayal that it has for women as that will just cause a whole new set of problems.

Interesting last phrase. A woman dancing in a pole is prone to pretty much look sexual and that´s it, primary emotion will be lust. I don´t see pole dancing as wrong.

Neither do I

I don´t know, most of the "objectification" thing seems like garbage to me. They just dont like women using their sex to further brands and cant accept sexuality as a legitimate emotion of the human female so if it only has that they say they are being "objectified". Which makes sense when coming from the same group of people who are against porn.
Not all feminists are against porn and I also agree that a simple portrayal of sexuality does not automatically equal objectification. These things are often very difficult to judge and require that one take into account the context of not just the specific ad, but other ads, societal views, how the ad will most likely be interpreted vs. what the advertiser is trying to say, the views of the target audience, etc. it's a very complex subject and I think one of the primary reasons why you and I have such differing views is because of our own societal and cultural background and upbringing.

In the end, at it's most basic level, objectification is dependent on the person viewing the woman in question and is about whether or not the person looking at her is viewing her as "a sexy woman who is expressing her sexuality" or if that person views the woman as nothing more than someTHING sexy to look at. In most cases objectification is dependent on how the person looking at the woman views her and not on the woman herself.
 
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