What does God do when Jesus becomes ruler over the created world?

[Colt]

Yes....the kingdom of God is more than the physical. But scripture says there shall be a new heaven AND a new earth over which Jesus shall rule with absolute authority. Earth is a physical place. Jesus never left spiritually. But he has not come into absolute rule over his kingdom yet. Else we wouldn't be waiting for his return as scripture indicates. When Christ returns it will include physicality so that he may from that point on eternally rule over all of reality with absolute authority. Not just the spiritual realms.

Jesus explained that his kingdom is spiritual. Jesus doesn't live on earth; he came down for a very short time and then returned to his eternal place in heaven. Jesus did promise to return but it will only be for a "visit". Earth isn't man's permeant home, neither is it the Son of God's home.

Once the original Gospel subdues the world then there won't be any need for Jesus to "rule" the material world.

 

[setarcos]

I'll need to reword my previous reply. What's clear in the NT is that while Jesus identifies with the Son of man (a title for a human in the Tanakh except twice in Daniel where it stands for God's agent, as here)

My god, how did you wade through my atrocious grammar? Anyway...An agent of God can be any being acting in Gods service. This might be angels and includes human beings.
In Daniel "son of man" does not simply mean agent of God. Agent of God is clear from the context of the verses. The verse in Daniel 7 actually says..."13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven.
Like a son of man indicates that the "agent" had the appearance of being human. Daniel is simply saying that he looked like a male human being. In contrast to the other fabulous beasts in his visions. He has injected humanities importance into his visions divine setting.
Compare this with Daniel 8:15 ….the Angel Gabriel -also an Agent of God- is described as appearing as a man. But notice the phrase is " 'like' a son of man" and not simply "son of man". Agents of God can appear as human or actually be human. Daniel at this time could not verify the humanity of Christ except by appearance in his vision. This is a vision of a future in which Christs actual humanity plays a crucial role. And Daniel 8:17 in which Gabriel refers to Daniel as "son of man" referencing his humanity. An important aspect from which Jesus references his own actual humanity in contradistinction with his title as only begotten "Son of God". A title which Jews would have considered anathema.

repeatedly using the phrase instead of "I" in particular contexts ─ which seemed to me to imply that he wasn't the Son of Man on this trip, and would only be so when he returned as God's viceroy.

Using the phrase instead of I is meant to emphasize that Jesus was truly and wholly human despite his divine inheritance. An important aspect of his essence necessary to fulfill all righteousness for humanities ascension.
Jesus isn't God's viceroy. He won't rule on behalf of God. For all intents and purposes he is God through his inheritance of all authority.

The Enoch part is from Ehrman's How Jesus Became God (2014) which says (p. 68) ─

Again, I'm not sure where Enoch fits into this scenario. Going to be with God and ruling with God are vastly different concepts. And the verse could conceivably be translated as simply meaning Enoch died. Do you have a reference where Jews considered Enoch a threat to their monotheistic beliefs?

Alan Segal, a scholar of ancient Judaism, argues that early rabbis were particularly concerned about a notion, which was evidently widespread in parts of Judaism, that along with God in heaven there was a second power on the divine throne. Following these Jewish sources, Segal refers to these two—God and the other—as the "two powers in heaven."14 The Son of Man figure whom we have just examined would be one such divine figure, as he shares the status and power of God. But there evidently were others who were candidates for this celestial honor, and the rabbis who were concerned about regulating what Jews should think and believe found such views unnerving, so much so that they went on the attack against them. Their attacks were effective, more or less silencing those who ascribed to these views.

Yes, there were many conflagrating ideas floating around in ancient Judaism. The Jews were surrounded by polytheistic religions and different conceptions of what or who God is.
The Jews were a monotheistic religion and the early rabbis would have been very concerned about how God was depicted and mans relationship with that depiction. Again...the reason Jesus got into the trouble he did.

"Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness." Why is God speaking in the plural: "us" and "our"?

My guess is that whatever Jesus was before taking on a human nature was with God from the beginning of creation and had a "hand" in creating.
Makes sense if he is to sacrifice himself later in order to justly redeem humankind to the Father.

Elsewhere, even within the book of Exodus, it is explicitly stated that no one can see God and live (Exod. 33:20). Yet they did see God and they did live. They must, then, have seen the second power, not God.

Ties together if Jesus inherited his authority from it who cannot be seen with mortal eyes.

this heresy can be traced back to the first Christian century and to Palestine itself. He maintains that one obvious target for such views were the Christians, who elevated Christ—as we will see—to the level of God. But it wasn't only Christians who held to the two-powers heresy. Non-Christian Jews did as well, on the basis of their interpretation of passages from the Hebrew Bible.

Whence comes the early beginnings of the heretical cult of Christianity.

There's thus no reason to think it's true of the Jesuses of Paul, Mark, Luke or John.

The gospels were not meant to be verbatim depictions of each others truth. They are individual perspectives of divine revelation. Matthews verse is cohesive with the rest of scripture.

it's not completely impossible that some enthusiastic early copyist slipped it in at the end ─ as appears to have happened at the end of Mark (adding 16:9-20).

Simply because it hasn't been proven to be the case doesn't make it impossible, I agree with you. As it stands...since it hasn't been proven I taken it on faith that it is a description of a perspective on what is truth.

 

[Muffled]

Who is it that raised up Jesus from the dead and seated him next to God:

• ‘[God? The Father?] raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms’ (Ephesians 1:20)

Muffled, you know that what you said makes no sense. Why do you persist in portraying falseness as truth? It will do you no good on the day of judgement.

I believe I tell the truth. What do you think is false. I saw nothing in your response.

 

[Soapy]

I believe I tell the truth. What do you think is false. I saw nothing in your response.

Let’s just see, then:

• Truth and Untruth = Lie
• Untruth and Untruth = Lie
• Untruth and Truth = Lie
• Truth and Truth = Truth

Muffled, every time you tell an untruth, even if there is truth in what you say, the final outcome, the conclusion, is a Lie…!

Jesus INHERITED the rulership of the earth because he was the love of the The Father, the most beloved of all of mankind:

• “Their leader will be one of their own; their ruler will arise from among them. I will bring him near and he will come close to me— for who is he who will devote himself to be close to me?’ declares the YHWH.” (Jeremiah 30:21)
• “You made him ruler of the works of Your hands; You have placed everything under his feet:” (Psalms 8:6)
• “He (Jesus Christ) will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”(Luke 1:32-33)

How do you figure that Jesus was ruler over earth before Jesus was granted it FROM GOD, the Father.

 

[mangalavara]

The kingdom that Jesus established is spiritual, its already here and he's already ruling in the heart of the believer. God the Father is still in heaven and so is the Son of God at the place that he has been from the eternal past.

My father is a Christian of the amillennial (or realized millennial) perspective. What you say in the quotation above is definitely something he can say ‘Amen’ to. I have heard him speak of the kingdom and Jesus’ reign in this manner many times. Although I am a Hindu, I like this particular view of the kingdom of God and the reign of Christ. I personally like it much more than the premillennial view that the resurrected and exalted Jesus is still waiting to reign somewhere on earth.

 

[Ajax]

God created the world for the Son in humanity whom He loves the most. When Jesus is appointed as that Son, and proves himself to be so by setting to rights the world he is to inherit, God makes him the RULER of it.

Something is wrong here.... not necessarily you...

John 12:31 "Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out."

Luke 4:5-6 "Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said to Him, "All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish."

2 Cor 4:4 "Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light...."

 

[Soapy]

Something is wrong here.... not necessarily you...

John 12:31 "Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out."

Luke 4:5-6 "Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said to Him, "All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish."

2 Cor 4:4 "Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light...."

Ajax, there is nothing wrong… It’s just that you are reading things BACKWARDS!!!

The world was created by God for man to rule over. The created world is a physical environment as opposed to the Spirit world of Heaven which is NON-Physical.

God proposed that a physical human made in his image should rule over the physical world just as He, a Spirit, rules over the Spirit world.

Are you ok with this so far?

Mankind, at present, is like a child; we are innocent and ignorant of the power and authority that is waiting for us as ‘kings and priests’ of this physical kingdom. The scriptures states this:

• ‘Though a prince, while he is a child, he is treated just as a servant of the kingdom he is to rule over, awaiting maturity!’ (Paraphrased)

Mankind (the prince) has not yet attained the maturity to rule over creation (witness the world chaos, the debauched governments, the disruptions on the earth!) This is because we seek our own CHILDISH desires which is put into us by the STEWARD who holds the rulership over creation WHILE man remains immature.

But do not confuse ‘Prince’ in mankind with ‘Prince’ as angel (Satan). Both are Princes in different senses. Satan is the OVERSEER STEWARD who heads up rulership of the demonic angels… Man is human, awaiting to take over the heirachial rulership from Satan and the tiers of angelic government-ship:

• ‘For God did not propose that the world to come should be ruled over by angels’

Jesus Christ will head up and replace the top level rulership from Satan… In fact, that is already in place but the effect is not yet fully being shown as it’s a SPIRITUAL CHANGE - nor perceived by the physical body, eyes, ears, or mind. There is a group of believers (‘Chosen from before the foundation of the world’) called, ‘The Elect of God’, who will sit in place of the tiered level angel government-ship. These, scriptures calls:

• ‘Kings and Priests ruling with Christ Jesus’

Satan WAS INDEED “PRINCE OF THIS WORLD” in his capacity as STEWARD over creation. What is the purpose of a STEWARD … is it not to HOLD AND RULE WHILE THE KING IS NOT IN PLACE - perhaps ‘Too young to take up the rulership’??? But once mature, the prince REPLACES the Steward!!

Satan knew this and tried to get Jesus to SIN and thereby never fully mature - by this Satan would eternally retain the rulership over creation… But Jesus did not sin - and Satan knew his fate was sealed after Jesus took up, carried out, and completed the tasks set to him to attain the kingship, saying:

• ‘It is done… I saw Satan fall from Heavdn like lightening …. Woe to the world for the God of this world has come into his kingdom’ (paraphrased)

Here we see the use of the term, ‘God of this world’… it is not ‘The God: The Father’… it’s just how religious rendering works (badly). It means, ‘The angelic RULER’: ‘The Steward, Satan’; the MIGHTY ANGEL who:

• ‘unless even YHWH did not shorten his (Satan’s) time could have deceived even Elect of God!!’

Ajax, you believe true, but you get some things in the wrong order… It’s not to be surprised at: When Satan sees someone learning the truth, do you imaging he will sit around allowing them to go uncontested - No! He will send his deceiving angels to try to scupper your learning… beware and do exactly what you did here - ASK what you do not know… but beware of deceptive answers : Satan and his hoard masquerading as angels of light!!

 

[Colt]

Something is wrong here.... not necessarily you...

John 12:31 "Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out."

Luke 4:5-6 "Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said to Him, "All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish."

2 Cor 4:4 "Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light...."

Conflicting accounts in the scripture. Some stuff was added concerning the time Jesus was gone for 40 days.

Jesus defeated Satan.

 

[Ajax]

Ajax, there is nothing wrong… It’s just that you are reading things BACKWARDS!!!

The world was created by God for man to rule over. The created world is a physical environment as opposed to the Spirit world of Heaven which is NON-Physical.

God proposed that a physical human made in his image should rule over the physical world just as He, a Spirit, rules over the Spirit world.

Are you ok with this so far?

Let's suppose so, for the sake of the conversation, although we both know that the creation is a fairy tale borrowed from the Sumerians.
God supposedly gave to Adam dominion of living creatures on earth. Paul claims that Satan is also the king of the air, apart from god of this world.
Question: How do we know that there is a spirit word? Has anyone experienced it?

Mankind (the prince) has not yet attained the maturity to rule over creation (witness the world chaos, the debauched governments, the disruptions on the earth!) This is because we seek our own CHILDISH desires which is put into us by the STEWARD who holds the rulership over creation WHILE man remains immature.

On the contrary, man has succeeded to rule over the world, through the development of his brain and his ability of collective sharing of information/education. Nobody has put us in this position, but ourselves.

But do not confuse ‘Prince’ in mankind with ‘Prince’ as angel (Satan). Both are Princes in different senses. Satan is the OVERSEER STEWARD who heads up rulership of the demonic angels… Man is human, awaiting to take over the heirachial rulership from Satan and the tiers of angelic government-ship:

John and Luke the evangelists, as well as Paul disagree with your view that Satan is the ruler of the demonic angels only. They name him ruler of this world.
Is man awaiting to take over the demonic angels from Satan? Because you just said he is only ruling the demonic angels..

Jesus Christ will head up and replace the top level rulership from Satan

Will?? When?

In fact, that is already in place but the effect is not yet fully being shown as it’s a SPIRITUAL CHANGE - nor perceived by the physical body, eyes, ears, or mind.

How do you know? Do you have inside information?

There is a group of believers (‘Chosen from before the foundation of the world’) called, ‘The Elect of God’, who will sit in place of the tiered level angel government-ship. These, scriptures calls:

• ‘Kings and Priests ruling with Christ Jesus’

Is this the chapter where a Lamb is standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes?

Satan WAS INDEED “PRINCE OF THIS WORLD”

Satan still IS the prince and the ruler of the world according to your scriptures.

Satan knew this and tried to get Jesus to SIN and thereby never fully mature - by this Satan would eternally retain the rulership over creation… But Jesus did not sin - and Satan knew his fate was sealed after Jesus took up, carried out, and completed the tasks set to him to attain the kingship

This is worse than childish. Satan who needs permission from God to harm or fool anyone according to scriptures, tried to make God (or Son of God) to sin? Really? Did Jesus give him authority to test Him?

Ajax, you believe true, but you get some things in the wrong order

I am an agnostic Soapy, since I studied the Bible and found an incredible number of falsehoods, and I dare say childish and idiotic contradictions, which prove beyond any reasonable doubt to me, that the Bible (mainly the Old Testament) is nothing more than a collection of various books written by and for uneducated people, with no correlation between them.

 

[Muffled]

God created the world for the Son in humanity whom He loves the most. When Jesus is appointed as that Son, and proves himself to be so by setting to rights the world he is to inherit, God makes him the RULER of it.

But God is still the ruler over Heaven. What does God do now?

I know that any answer is purely speculative so I am willing also to explore everything leading up to God relinquishing the created world to the Son of His love.

I believe God is in Jesus so He is ruling the Kingdom of God.

 

[Muffled]

Retirement?

I believe God never rests nor sleeps.

 

[Muffled]

Who is it that raised up Jesus from the dead and seated him next to God:

• ‘[God? The Father?] raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms’ (Ephesians 1:20)

Muffled, you know that what you said makes no sense. Why do you persist in portraying falseness as truth? It will do you no good on the day of judgement.

I believe I make perfect sense but your nonsense seems to have no end.

 

[Balthazzar]

God created the world for the Son in humanity whom He loves the most. When Jesus is appointed as that Son, and proves himself to be so by setting to rights the world he is to inherit, God makes him the RULER of it.

But God is still the ruler over Heaven. What does God do now?

I know that any answer is purely speculative so I am willing also to explore everything leading up to God relinquishing the created world to the Son of His love.

This may be referring to our collective efforts and achievements in relation to creating a world satisfying enough to be called ours and under our feet, etc. Jesus being the head, someone who honors truth and who acts accordingly and we, being part of the body and acting with the same "honor truth" mindset. Everything is under Gods authority anyway. The difference may be in our honor truth first and foremost mindset, in contrast to being so prone to error.

 

[Soapy]

I believe I make perfect sense but your nonsense seems to have no end.

Muffled, let me ask you something:

What purpose is it that Jesus Christ should become ruler of the created world - the ruler of what you say he created?​

​

If Jesus created all things then was he not already ruler over it as he created it, and where does it say so in scriptures?​

My statement says that YHWH created all things and AWARDED IT to whom he called ‘My Son’ in humanity:

‘A physical human ruler over a physical world just as He (YHWH) is Spirit God over a Spirit Heaven’​

When you refuse to answer the questions above, ask me how my expression of the truth works, ask me anything about my belief. Then compare with your delusion that cannot be ‘rounded’ upon itself to make a cohesive argument. For you, you will have to devise clear and evidential falsities to make yours work… symptomatic of a deceitful claim!!

 

[setarcos]

Here is what we can glean from scripture about Gods kingdom.
1)It will be a kingdom ruled by Christ with absolute authority forever in Heaven AND on Earth
2) That Kingdom as it will be is not yet established
3) That Kingdom will consist of Gods spiritual blessings flowing from the absolutely goodness of God AND the subjects of this kingdom a.k.a. Christs body or Church.

Jesus explained that his kingdom is spiritual.

Yes...as in Luke 17:20-21. The Kingdom of God is within us.
Yet the Kingdom of God is more than the spiritual blessings handed out by God...Jesus will reign over the recipients
of those blessings as well and apparently those recipients will be on a New Earth as well as a New heaven.

Jesus doesn't live on earth; he came down for a very short time and then returned to his eternal place in heaven.

Yes, Jesus lived on earth, was crucified, died, rose again, then ascended. What we are concerned with is Gods kingdom and what exactly Jesus will
be reigning over.
Now we know from scripture that there will be a New heaven AND a New Earth. That is the spiritual and physical realms.
What is the New Earth for? When scripture speaks about the earth it is the abode of humankind.
Scripture speaks of Christs ultimate eternal dominion over both heaven and earth in many places.
1 Chronicles 29:11, Zechariah 14:9, Luke 11:2, Psalm 2:7-8, Ephesians 1:10, Revelation 1:6...see Revelations 5:10
Then of course we have John in his book of revelations describing the "New Jerusalem" coming down out of heaven...where's it going?
John also gives specific physical dimensions and characteristics to this New Jerusalem.
Revelations 11:15 speaks of the kingdom of the world becoming Gods kingdom over which he will reign forever.
Remember in Ephesians 10:9-10, the plan is to bring all things in heaven AND on earth together in Christ.

Jesus did promise to return but it will only be for a "visit"

The return doesn't mean Jesus ever left...remember scripture "...I will be with you always, even until the end of time." The return isn't a visit. Its a fulfillment of the end and the beginning of his eternal reign.

Earth isn't man's permeant home, neither is it the Son of God's home.

Revelation 21:1-4 might have something a little different in mind.

 

[Muffled]

Muffled, let me ask you something:

What purpose is it that Jesus Christ should become ruler of the created world - the ruler of what you say he created?​

​

If Jesus created all things then was he not already ruler over it as he created it, and where does it say so in scriptures?​

My statement says that YHWH created all things and AWARDED IT to whom he called ‘My Son’ in humanity:

‘A physical human ruler over a physical world just as He (YHWH) is Spirit God over a Spirit Heaven’​

When you refuse to answer the questions above, ask me how my expression of the truth works, ask me anything about my belief. Then compare with your delusion that cannot be ‘rounded’ upon itself to make a cohesive argument. For you, you will have to devise clear and evidential falsities to make yours work… symptomatic of a deceitful claim!!

God tends to rule in the background and only sometimes comes forth with pronouncements to prophets but in Jesus He will rule directly as a human.

I believe as God He did create all things but it was not while He was incarnated. Jesus in His first sojourn on earth was not a ruler over anyone but His disciples.

I believe I don't see that anywhere in scripture but surely the Father can give the Son gifts.

I believe you can say whatever you wish but the truth stands on its own.

 

[Soapy]

God tends to rule in the background and only sometimes comes forth with pronouncements to prophets but in Jesus He will rule directly as a human.

At least you stare that Jesus is a man… better a than most Trinitarians… that’s an applause to you, then.

But ‘God ruling as a man’… You overstretch your imagination and grieve the Spirit of truth: YHWH GOD is not a man - and Jesus CHRIST is not God!!

I believe as God He did create all things but it was not while He was incarnated. Jesus in His first sojourn on earth was not a ruler over anyone but His disciples.

‘As God’??? Do you mean that you believe that Jesus Christ is also Almighty God, YHWH, the Father?

I believe I don't see that anywhere in scripture but surely the Father can give the Son gifts.

The Father does indeed give gifts to the Son… that is quite clear from the Scriptures: GOD gives gifts to his beloved…

The problem is that you make out that Jesus is the Father who gave him those gifts… Jesus gave himself his own gifts… according to your belief!!

I believe you can say whatever you wish but the truth stands on its own.

You speak s truth that you do not know about … about yourself, perhaps!