What does Islam say about human rights?

[Link]

Just saying it doesn't make it true. It's interesting that you're pushing the doctrine of the man that the Quran ignored, though.

Salam

I believe with Quran you either find it says x or not x, but that you can't say it doesn't say anything simply by not seeing it yourself. It's all about how to arrive at a conclusion (differ way points), but it contains everything humans need in terms of guidance.

 

[Ebionite]

Salam

I believe with Quran you either find it says x or not x, but that you can't say it doesn't say anything simply by not seeing it yourself. It's all about how to arrive at a conclusion (differ way points), but it contains everything humans need in terms of guidance.

To arrive at a conclusion one should apply reason with the objective of finding the truth. The value of reason is part of the message of the Quran. Humans have difficulty with assessing risk because of their security relationship with the state.

 

[Link]

To arrive at a conclusion one should apply reason with the objective of finding the truth. The value of reason is part of the message of the Quran. Humans have difficulty with assessing risk because of their security relationship with the state.

I don't disagree with anything you are saying here. But also don't know where you are going with it.

 

[Ebionite]

I don't disagree with anything you are saying here. But also don't know where you are going with it.

It goes back to Pauline doctrine. Paul endorsed the state, and the state is the source of human rights. Paul and his doctrine are entirely absent from the Quran, even though the Quran mentions the gospels and there has always been a close relationship between Paul and the Roman church.

 

[Link]

It goes back to Pauline doctrine. Paul endorsed the state, and the state is the source of human rights. Paul and his doctrine are entirely absent from the Quran, even though the Quran mentions the gospels and there has always been a close relationship between Paul and the Roman church.

I still don't know what you mean.

 

[Ebionite]

I still don't know what you mean.

It's about the relationship between natural rights, which come from deity, and human rights, which come from the state.

Previously you said:

I'm saying God enjoins human rights and wants government to serve a specific purpose. This is what I'm proving in this thread from an Islamic perspective.

What I'm getting at is that the Quran does not endorse human rights because it does not endorse Paul. Paul was the vehicle for the idea that the Roman state was an agent of divine power.

The security relationships of deity and of Rome were central to the ideological forces behind the crucifixion. This leads to the opposing interpretations of the crucifixion of Islam and Christianity. This in turn leads to the idea that the Quran is more aligned with natural rights than with human rights.

 

[Link]

It's about the relationship between natural rights, which come from deity, and human rights, which come from the state.

Previously you said:


What I'm getting at is that the Quran does not endorse human rights because it does not endorse Paul. Paul was the vehicle for the idea that the Roman state was an agent of divine power.

The security relationships of deity and of Rome were central to the ideological forces behind the crucifixion. This leads to the opposing interpretations of the crucifixion of Islam and Christianity. This in turn leads to the idea that the Quran is more aligned with natural rights than with human rights.

Did you see what I quoted about bad and good governments by Imam Ali (a)?

 

[Link]

See post #44.

 

[Heyo]

For example, St. Augustine emphasized the inherent worth of every human being as created in the image of God and advocated for fair treatment and compassion towards all. Similarly, St. Thomas Aquinas articulated principles of natural law that recognize certain fundamental rights and duties based on human nature and the common good.

Like slavery/serfdom, corporal and capital punishment, inferiority of women, etc?

While the terminology and framework of contemporary human rights may not have been explicitly articulated by the early Church Fathers, their teachings laid the groundwork for later developments in moral and legal thinking regarding the rights and dignity of individuals.

It takes some mental gymnastics to put the church fathers in a line with the philosophers of the Enlightenment.

 

[stevecanuck]

... the Quran does not endorse human rights because it does not endorse Paul.

The Qur'an never speaks of rights; only responsibilities.

Many hundreds of times it tells people to obey Allah. Period.

 

[Ebionite]

The Qur'an never speaks of rights

Rights and obligations are correlatives. For example the right of a Muslim woman to be treated with kindness follows from the obligation that is described in the Quran for her husband.

 

[Link]

The Qur'an never speaks of rights; only responsibilities.

Many hundreds of times it tells people to obey Allah. Period.

Salam

What do you think of the first verse of Surah Nisa? It is saying that we have rights to one another through God and his Name, and as well we ask rights of kinship to one another.

 

[stevecanuck]

Salam

What do you think of the first verse of Surah Nisa? It is saying that we have rights to one another through God and his Name, and as well we ask rights of kinship to one another.

All of which is heavily laced with warnings to obey Allah.

 

[PearlSeeker]

I am going to trying to prove what Islam says about these issues.

Can you define what you mean with "Islam"?

This isn't just a religion (in the usual meaning). It's also sharia and a form of government.

 

[Link]

Can you define what you mean with "Islam"?

This is half the battle between good and evil, ain't it? Or probably even more.

 

[Link]

Salam

The following Du'a from Imam Jewad (a) (9th successor) talks about injusticeI find illuminating in that people wonder what of Islam was lost with martyrdom of Imam Hussain (a), well it's the justice side - the human rights side included.



اَللَّهُمَّ إِنَّ ظُلْمَ عِبَادِكَ قَدْ تَمَكَّنَ فِي بِلاَدِكَ
allahumma inna zulma `ibadika qad tamakkana fi biladika
O Allah, the persecutions against Your servants have become so prevalent in Your lands

حَتَّىٰ امَاتَ ٱلْعَدْلَ
hatta amata al`adla
that it has put an end to justice,

وَقَطَعَ ٱلسُّبُلَ
wa qata`a alssubula
and cut off the paths [to guidance]

وَمَحَقَ ٱلْحَقَّ
wa mahaqa alhaqqa
It has wiped out the truth

وَابْطَلَ ٱلصِّدْقَ
wa abtala alssidqa
and nullified truthfulness

وَاخْفَىٰ ٱلْبِرَّ
wa akhfa albirra
It has concealed righteousness ,

وَاظْهَرَ ٱلشَّرَّ
wa azhara alshsharra
and made evil become manifest

وَاخْمَدَ ٱلتَّقْوَىٰ
wa akhmada alttaqwa
It has quelled God-consciousness

وَازَالَ ٱلْهُدَىٰ
wa azala alhuda
and made guidance disappear

وَازَاحَ ٱلْخَيْرَ
wa azaha alkhayra
It has made goodness distant

وَاثْبَتَ ٱلضَّيْرَ
wa athbata alddayra
and established wrong

وَانْمَىٰ ٱلْفَسَادَ
wa anma alfasada
It has caused corruption to spread

وَقَوَّىٰ ٱلْعِنَادَ
wa qawwa al`inada
and strengthened deviance,

وَبَسَطَ ٱلْجَوْرَ
wa basata aljawra
It has spread tyranny

وَعَدَىٰ ٱلطَّوْرَ
wa `ada alttawra
and transgressed the limits.

اَللَّهُمَّ يَا رَبِّ لاَ يَكْشِفُ ذٰلِكَ إِلاَّ سُلْطَانُكَ
allahumma ya rabbi la yakshifu dhalika illa sultanuka
O Allah, my Lord, no one can remove that [injustice] except Your authority

وَلاَ يُجِيرُ مِنْهُ إِلاَّ ٱمْتِنَانُكَ
wa la yujiru minhu illa imtinanuka
and nothing can rescue from it except Your favour.

اَللَّهُمَّ رَبِّ فَٱبْتُرِ الظُّلْمَ
allahumma rabbi fabtur alzzulma
O Allah, my Lord, cut off oppression

وَبُثَّ جِبَالَ ٱلْغَشْمِ
wa buththa jibala alghashmi
and unravel the ropes of oppression,

وَاخْمِدْ سُوقَ ٱلْمُنْكَرِ
wa akhmid suqa almunkari
extinguish the increase of the evil

وَاعِزَّ مَنْ عَنْهُ يَنْزَجِرُ
wa a`izza man `anhu yanzajiru
make mighty the one who prevents it,

وَٱحْصُدْ شَافَةَ اهْلِ ٱلْجَوْرِ
wahsud sha'fata ahli aljawri
uproot the enmity of the people of tyranny,

وَالْبِسْهُمُ ٱلْحَوْرَ بَعْدَ ٱلْكَوْرِ
wa albishumu alhawra ba`da alkawri
and clothe them with loss after excess.

وَعَجِّلِ ٱللَّهُمَّ إِلَيْهِمُ ٱلْبَيَاتَ
wa `ajjili allahumma ilayhim albayata
and hasten for them O Allah the sudden night attacks,

وَانْزِلْ عَلَيْهِمُ ٱلْمَثُلاَتِ
wa anzil `alayhim almathulati
and send down on them painful punishment,

وَامِتْ حَيَاةَ ٱلْمُنْكَرِ
wa amit hayata almunkari
extinguish the life of wrongdoing

لِيُؤْمَنَ ٱلْمَخُوفُ
liyu'mana almakhufu
so the fearful one finds safety ,

وَيَسْكُنَ ٱلْمَلْهُوفُ
wa yaskuna almalhufu
and the aggrieved finds solace,

وَيَشْبَعَ ٱلْجَائِعُ
wa yashba`a alja'i`u
the hungry is satiated ,

وَيُحْفَظَ ٱلضَّائِعُ
wa yuhfaza aldda'i`u
and the lost one is protected

وَيَاوِي ٱلطَّرِيدُ
wa ya'wi alttaridu
the forsaken one finds refuge

وَيَعُودَ ٱلشَّرِيدُ
wa ya`uda alshsharidu
and the exiled one returns,

وَيُغْنَىٰ ٱلْفَقِيرُ
wa yughna alfaqiru
the poor is enriched

وَيُجَارَ ٱلْمُسْتَجِيرُ
wa yujara almustajiru
and the refugee finds refuge,,

وَيُوَقَّرَ ٱلْكَبِيرُ
wa yuwaqqara alkabiru
the elderly is respected ,

وَيُرْحَمَ ٱلصَّغِيرُ
wa yurhama alssaghiru
and the young ones receive mercy,

وَيُعَزَّ ٱلْمَظْلُومُ
wa yu`azza almazlumu
the oppressed one is honored ,

وَيُذَلَّ ٱلظَّالِمُ
wa yudhalla alzzalimu
and the oppressor is humiliated,

وَيُفَرَّجَ ٱلْمَغْمُومُ
wa yufarraja almaghmumu
the sorrowful is relieved ,

وَتَنْفَرِجَ ٱلْغَمَّاءُ
wa tanfarija alghamma'u
and the grief is dispelled,

وَتَسْكُنَ ٱلدَّهْمَاءُ
wa taskuna alddahma'u
the masses find peace ,

وَيَمُوتَ ٱلٱِخْتِلاَفُ
wa yamuta alikhtilafu
and differences die,

وَيَعْلُوَ ٱلْعِلْمُ
wa ya`luwa al`ilmu
knowledge is elevated

وَيَشْمُلَ ٱلسِّلْمُ
wa yashmula alssilmu
and peace is spread,,

وَيُجْمَعَ ٱلشَّتَاتُ
wa yujma`a alshshatatu
the scattered ones are gathered,

وَيَقْوَىٰ ٱلإِيـمَانُ
wa yaqwa al-imanu
faith is strengthened,,

وَيُتْلَىٰ ٱلْقُرْآنُ
wa yutla alqur'anu
and the Qur'an is recited/followed.

إِنَّكَ انْتَ ٱلدَّيَّانُ ٱلْمُنْعِمُ ٱلْمَنَّانُ
innaka anta alddayyanu almun`imu almannanu
Surely You are the best Judge, the One who favours with [immense] favour..

 

[danieldemol]

@Link
With any ancient text not written to explicitly address today's requirements you have problems such as;
-Whose interpretation of the book do you judge by?
And
In conflicts between people who follow different books and/or different interpretations which do you judge by?

Additionally in order to protect human rights the law must be clearly worded enough and legal precedent set that a consensus of legal experts will interpret the law to protect that right. So for example since Islamic scholarly consensus was that slavery was allowed this demonstrates that Islamic law was not written clearly enough to protect that right and needs to change in my view.

This then leads to conflict with a divinely-revealed approach to law because its supposed to be perfect and not subject to change. Which is part of why I favour scrapping such an approach in favour of one that can be amended as our understanding of human rights evolves.

 

[Link]

@Link
With any ancient text not written to explicitly address today's requirements you have problems such as;
-Whose interpretation of the book do you judge by?
And
In conflicts between people who follow different books and/or different interpretations which do you judge by?

Additionally in order to protect human rights the law must be clearly worded enough and legal precedent set that a consensus of legal experts will interpret the law to protect that right. So for example since Islamic scholarly consensus was that slavery was allowed this demonstrates that Islamic law was not written clearly enough to protect that right and needs to change in my view.

This then leads to conflict with a divinely-revealed approach to law because its supposed to be perfect and not subject to change. Which is part of why I favour scrapping such an approach in favour of one that can be amended as our understanding of human rights evolves.

Salam

Yes these problems exist. Quran and hadiths has the solution for them but people ignore them, so the problems have not gone away.

 

[danieldemol]

Salam

Yes these problems exist. Quran and hadiths has the solution for them but people ignore them, so the problems have not gone away.

I believe your second sentence is handwaving away the acknowledgement of your first sentence.

 

[Anne1]

The following Du'a from Imam Jewad (a) (9th successor) talks about injusticeI find illuminating in that people wonder what of Islam was lost with martyrdom of Imam Hussain (a), well it's the justice side - the human rights side included.

You speak of human rights, which, of course, have gradually improved over time.

Nevertheless, Islam originally reinvigorated the slave trade. There were no real cries against slavery from Muslims; no arguments over their human rights. No one, like St. Augustine, who condemned slavery as a sin.

Arguments by Christians against slavery began with the decline of Rome. By the beginning of the Dark Ages, slavery no longer existed in Christian Europe. It was replaced by serfs, who had rights, rights that grew stronger with every century.

Then, in 1435, the pope wrote the bull Sicut Didum, which stated anyone who owned. sold, or transported slaves was excommunicated.

Yet slavery began again in Europe, and had to be ended by passionate Christians like William Wilberforce.

Muhammed himself had 40 slaves and married one of them. The Sharia has many rules regarding your slaves, including allowing slaveowners to sexually enjoy their female slaves.

Today, Pakistan has over two million slaves. Mauritania has over 90,000. Such countries as Saudi Arabia and Libya are rumored to still have many slaves.