Exactly. And in Quran it says Muslims a lot without “towards God”. Since Quran talks about submitting to God that is assumed. I’m arguing it is the same with slaves Quran gives context that it is “of God” elsewhere.
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What does Islam say about human rights?
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IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
This makes absolutely no sense. I see absolutely no connection between your first sentence and your second. Yes, it is assumed that Muslims submit to God. This has NOTHING to do with the fact that Muslims had slaves, and that the Quran never calls for the eradication of legal slavery, but simply assumes there will be slaves.
Salam
You said, "Slaves" "to God" has to be there for it to be clearly implied. I'm saying the words "Muslims" "to God" doesn't always occur, in fact, in most places, it simply says "Muslims". "To God" is assumed in all of them, from context of other places in Quran. I'm saying similarly, as being servants of God is seen elsewhere.
As for "your servants", just as in the case "their Prophet", does not imply ownership, the latter can and does mean "the Prophet sent to them", "your slaves" can mean "the slaves (of God) from you".
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Agree to disagree.
Salam
There are many theories to what should be the right approach to feminism. This is important to keep in mind. There is a type that talks about it that the type supported by the west is in favor of privileged class while causing more problems or ignoring the plight of the lower classes and what they face. Feminists of this type suggest it shouldn't be seen as competition, but rather solutions should seek how to alleviate suffering and stand in solidarity with all women and prevent sufferings for them.
There is a hint that Quran supports this type of feminist approach over others, when it says:
وَلَا تَتَمَنَّوْا مَا فَضَّلَ اللَّهُ بِهِ بَعْضَكُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ ۚ لِلرِّجَالِ نَصِيبٌ مِمَّا اكْتَسَبُوا ۖ وَلِلنِّسَاءِ نَصِيبٌ مِمَّا اكْتَسَبْنَ ۚ وَاسْأَلُوا اللَّهَ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمًا | Do not covet the advantage, which Allah has given some of you over others. To men belongs a share of what they have earned, and to women a share of what they have earned. And ask Allah for His bounty. Indeed Allah has knowledge of all things. | An-Nisaa : 32
It also acknowledge money as a means of domination and power:
أَهُمْ يَقْسِمُونَ رَحْمَتَ رَبِّكَ ۚ نَحْنُ قَسَمْنَا بَيْنَهُمْ مَعِيشَتَهُمْ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا ۚ وَرَفَعْنَا بَعْضَهُمْ فَوْقَ بَعْضٍ دَرَجَاتٍ لِيَتَّخِذَ بَعْضُهُمْ بَعْضًا سُخْرِيًّا ۗ وَرَحْمَتُ رَبِّكَ خَيْرٌ مِمَّا يَجْمَعُونَ | Is it they who dispense the mercy of your Lord? It is We who have dispensed among them their livelihood in the present life, and raised some of them above others in rank, so that some may take others into service, and your Lord’s mercy is better than what they amass. | Az-Zukhruf : 32
And we see Musa (a) when it a position of being able to been taken advantage of is treated fairly:
قَالَ إِنِّي أُرِيدُ أَنْ أُنْكِحَكَ إِحْدَى ابْنَتَيَّ هَاتَيْنِ عَلَىٰ أَنْ تَأْجُرَنِي ثَمَانِيَ حِجَجٍ ۖ فَإِنْ أَتْمَمْتَ عَشْرًا فَمِنْ عِنْدِكَ ۖ وَمَا أُرِيدُ أَنْ أَشُقَّ عَلَيْكَ ۚ سَتَجِدُنِي إِنْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ مِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ | He said, ‘Indeed I desire to marry you to one of these two daughters of mine, on condition that you hire yourself to me for eight years. And if you complete ten, that will be up to you, and I do not want to be hard on you. God willing, you will find me to a righteous person.’ | Al-Qasas : 27
The line "I do not want to be hard on you" relates to the whole story of Musa (a) and his people enslaved with today's age, that people are not enslaved technically, but they are in many ways force into hardship through the economic system that privileges one people over another which the Quran condemned Pharaoh in a general sense:
إِنَّ فِرْعَوْنَ عَلَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَجَعَلَ أَهْلَهَا شِيَعًا يَسْتَضْعِفُ طَائِفَةً مِنْهُمْ يُذَبِّحُ أَبْنَاءَهُمْ وَيَسْتَحْيِي نِسَاءَهُمْ ۚ إِنَّهُ كَانَ مِنَ الْمُفْسِدِينَ | Indeed Pharaoh tyrannized over the land, reducing its people to factions, abasing one group of them, slaughtering their sons, and sparing their women. Indeed, He was one of the agents of corruption. | Al-Qasas : 4
There are many theories to what should be the right approach to feminism. This is important to keep in mind. There is a type that talks about it that the type supported by the west is in favor of privileged class while causing more problems or ignoring the plight of the lower classes and what they face. Feminists of this type suggest it shouldn't be seen as competition, but rather solutions should seek how to alleviate suffering and stand in solidarity with all women and prevent sufferings for them.
There is a hint that Quran supports this type of feminist approach over others, when it says:
وَلَا تَتَمَنَّوْا مَا فَضَّلَ اللَّهُ بِهِ بَعْضَكُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ ۚ لِلرِّجَالِ نَصِيبٌ مِمَّا اكْتَسَبُوا ۖ وَلِلنِّسَاءِ نَصِيبٌ مِمَّا اكْتَسَبْنَ ۚ وَاسْأَلُوا اللَّهَ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمًا | Do not covet the advantage, which Allah has given some of you over others. To men belongs a share of what they have earned, and to women a share of what they have earned. And ask Allah for His bounty. Indeed Allah has knowledge of all things. | An-Nisaa : 32
It also acknowledge money as a means of domination and power:
أَهُمْ يَقْسِمُونَ رَحْمَتَ رَبِّكَ ۚ نَحْنُ قَسَمْنَا بَيْنَهُمْ مَعِيشَتَهُمْ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا ۚ وَرَفَعْنَا بَعْضَهُمْ فَوْقَ بَعْضٍ دَرَجَاتٍ لِيَتَّخِذَ بَعْضُهُمْ بَعْضًا سُخْرِيًّا ۗ وَرَحْمَتُ رَبِّكَ خَيْرٌ مِمَّا يَجْمَعُونَ | Is it they who dispense the mercy of your Lord? It is We who have dispensed among them their livelihood in the present life, and raised some of them above others in rank, so that some may take others into service, and your Lord’s mercy is better than what they amass. | Az-Zukhruf : 32
And we see Musa (a) when it a position of being able to been taken advantage of is treated fairly:
قَالَ إِنِّي أُرِيدُ أَنْ أُنْكِحَكَ إِحْدَى ابْنَتَيَّ هَاتَيْنِ عَلَىٰ أَنْ تَأْجُرَنِي ثَمَانِيَ حِجَجٍ ۖ فَإِنْ أَتْمَمْتَ عَشْرًا فَمِنْ عِنْدِكَ ۖ وَمَا أُرِيدُ أَنْ أَشُقَّ عَلَيْكَ ۚ سَتَجِدُنِي إِنْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ مِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ | He said, ‘Indeed I desire to marry you to one of these two daughters of mine, on condition that you hire yourself to me for eight years. And if you complete ten, that will be up to you, and I do not want to be hard on you. God willing, you will find me to a righteous person.’ | Al-Qasas : 27
The line "I do not want to be hard on you" relates to the whole story of Musa (a) and his people enslaved with today's age, that people are not enslaved technically, but they are in many ways force into hardship through the economic system that privileges one people over another which the Quran condemned Pharaoh in a general sense:
إِنَّ فِرْعَوْنَ عَلَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَجَعَلَ أَهْلَهَا شِيَعًا يَسْتَضْعِفُ طَائِفَةً مِنْهُمْ يُذَبِّحُ أَبْنَاءَهُمْ وَيَسْتَحْيِي نِسَاءَهُمْ ۚ إِنَّهُ كَانَ مِنَ الْمُفْسِدِينَ | Indeed Pharaoh tyrannized over the land, reducing its people to factions, abasing one group of them, slaughtering their sons, and sparing their women. Indeed, He was one of the agents of corruption. | Al-Qasas : 4
It in fact shows to contradict the right of humans as servants of God. Musa (a) says to Pharaoh they are in fact servants of God as an argument as to why Bani-Israel who are taken as slaves by Pharaoh should be free.
There is not one verse saying what to do if a slave tries to escape for example. There are no regulations. Freeing a neck doesn't have to mean freeing a slave although that can be the case, it can refer to captives.
As Muslims were in war, they took captives and enemy took captives, and there was ransom in that regard. The Quran however condemns holding people captives if the war is over. It limits captives to the framework during war. So that verses is vividly clear that they weren't allowed to be taken as slaves.
In fact, with regards to freeing a neck, the Quran says what to do if you don't find anyone to free. So it acknowledges there maybe points where there is no captives. In this case, do this and that (fasting consecutively).
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Pawpatrol
Active Member
Allah is saying "your slaves", not "my slaves".
I already addressed this.
Pawpatrol
Active Member
No, that's not the logical conclusion.
The general rule of interpreting a text — any text — is that we accept the obvious literal meaning unless we have a reason to do otherwise. Here we have no reason to do otherwise. It's a historical fact that Muslims have had slaves. It's mentioned in the Quran and the hadeeths innumerable times.
We do have reason to do otherwise. See post #106.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
It's a historical fact that Christians have had slaves..
That doesn't mean that G-d approves of a system based on slavery.
In fact, the modern financial system enslaves people .. and G-d disapproves of it.
Islamic finance encourages a fairer society, in which one party does not hold all the wealth.
i.e. usury is strictly forbidden
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
You're right. Every group in history up until the past couple hundred years has owned slaves. Every religion in the world was unwilling to tackle the problem on a moral level until the abolitionist movement, which FWIW was a Christian movement.
Muslim response: Islam responded to slavery by encouraging more humane treatment of slaves.The Quran applauded those who freed their slaves, but at the same time, never made it obligatory. I'm sure you know more about the details than I. While Islam as it exists today considers slavery to be incompatible with being a Muslim, there do remain fringe groups such as ISIS that have slaves.
Jewish response: The Torah assumed slavery, writing that the slave was the property of the master. However, more and more rules were added for the humane treatment of slaves, until it reached a point where it was no longer economically expedient to own a slave. For example, the Talmud states that if a master had only one pillow or one piece of food, he must give it to his slave before using it himself (Kiddushin 20a). Slavery pretty much died out among Jews on its own. I know of no Jewish fringe groups that still has slaves.
Christian response: While Christians had a long history of using the Bible to support the institution of slavery, they still get the award for leading the abolitionist movement. Christians who are members of White Nationalist groups, while they don't use the word slavery, often have views that support forced work by racial inferiors. However, they are pretty rare, and uniformly condemned by Christian denominations.
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If this is the case, God allowed one of the most horrific and evil practices of humans. He helped facilitate it if the holy books allowed it. This would be an evil God.
There is no base case for human rights if God deprived a human that much rights by sheer domination of others.
On contrary to this, there is a hadith from Imam Ali (a) "From Adam till now there has not been anyone born a slave and all humans are free".
I believe when Imams (a) talked about halal being made haram they are talking about Muta, and when the haram was made halal, they are talking about slavery. All other halal and haram issues are almost trivial compared to this, that and human rights and justice in general was abandoned. But this is what they mean primarily.
The Du'as and ziyarats of Imams (a) show there was severe distortion in matters of justice pertaining to the Shariah.
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IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Well yeah. God does tend to allow humans to be evil.
In my view, God has been trying to guide humans towards righteous behavior and would never condone such actions.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
But we aren't discussing God. We are discussing religions: Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc. Each claims to speak for God, yet each simply accepts slavery (until recently).
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Well, G-d is wise .. if slavery is abolished overnight, they would suffer more.
The Qur'an is clear that slavery is undesirable, and guides to a society that is free of it.
..but that doesn't stop people with bad intention .. people of all nations can be greedy, and wish
'the lion's share' for themselves.
There are multiple ways of enslaving people, and financial oppression is still very much with us.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
OMGosh. When the American slaves were literally freed overnight, I doubt they would tell you they suffered more than their enslavement.
With that comment, it becomes crystal clear that you goal here is not to accurately portray history or fairly assess the situation, but only to protect your idea that Islam can have no flaw. IOW, time for me to stop wasting my time trying to have an honest discussion with you.