What does it mean to "deny" Jesus, according to the NT?

[Oryonder]

The point being, John wouldn't have worshiped the Angel at all if he believed he shouldn't bow down to beings higher than him than God. The only argument against that is that he had some kind of blasphemous lapse, or he never learned the concept, which would not be likely if he was a prophet. As for the rank, it plainly says "For I am a prophet like yourself", why would he say that? Why would John bow to him? Obviously not acknowledging him as God. Why would the Angel tell him not to? Because he was a prophet like him. Same rank.

Unfortunately John did not write "John".

 

[Shermana]

Unfortunately John did not write "John".

Correct, it was probably Cerinthus, but for the sake of convenience....

 

[sincerly]

The point being, John wouldn't have worshiped the Angel at all if he believed he shouldn't bow down to beings higher than him than God. The only argument against that is that he had some kind of blasphemous lapse, or he never learned the concept, which would not be likely if he was a prophet. As for the rank, it plainly says "For I am a prophet like yourself", why would he say that? Why would John bow to him? Obviously not acknowledging him as God. Why would the Angel tell him not to? Because he was a prophet like him. Same rank.

Shermana, Dan.2:46, has this: "Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him."
The King was showing "respect/"honor" to Daniel for the information Daniel had presented to him. Are you saying that wasn't the same principle actioned by the Angel and John?
You may continue with the idea of "rank", but I don't see that as anything, but a "respecter of persons" which GOD doesn't support.

 

[Shermana]

Daniel as an Israelite prophet, is higher ranking than a Babylonian King. Did Daniel deny the worship? Thanks for reminding of that one too. So yes, that was a similar action as the "Worship" that Jesus received as well as that John attempted to display to the fellow-prophet-angel.

 

[sincerly]

Daniel as an Israelite prophet, is higher ranking than a Babylonian King. Did Daniel deny the worship? Thanks for reminding of that one too. So yes, that was a similar action as the "Worship" that Jesus received as well as that John attempted to display to the fellow-prophet-angel.

Daniel knew that the king wasn't worshiping him as the Creator GOD of all things, but was honoring and respecting him as an agent of GOD ALMIGHTY. That is seen in the making of Daniel the "ruler over all the province of Babylon". Dan.3:46-49.
still not a "ranking."----as to "worship"/meaning entitled to veneration---which is only to be given to GOD ALMIGHTY.

Shermana, Jesus, in numerous scriptural verses stated that all HE said and did was from the Father GOD. As a servant, Jesus "came to seek and save that which was lost". To be the propitiation/Reconciliation between the FATHER GOD and disobedient mankind.
Jesus, also, washed the disciples feet. Jesus said to them that he would be considered "greatest" who humbled himself to be a "servant to others." Hardly, a "ranking" that you are supposing.

 

[sincerly]

Correct, it was probably Cerinthus, but for the sake of convenience....

From what is known about Cerinthus and seen in the other Gospels concerning John, you picked a poor substitute for the writer of the Gospel of John and therefore the Revelation.
John still fills the bill of author of both. However, one can readily understand your desire to discredit both "books"---- They show the results of "denying Jesus".

 

[Bob Dixon]

HE said and did was from the Father GOD. As a servant, [he] "came to seek and save that which was lost". To be the propitiation/Reconciliation between the FATHER GOD and disobedient mankind.

This describes Daniel, too.

 

[sincerly]

This describes Daniel, too.

Daniel was never an ATONEMENT for the sins of the people. Yes, he prayed for the sins of the people in repentance, but repentance can only be made for one's own sins as seen in Ezek.18 and in the N.T.

Daniel was a captive---in Babylon(Even with the status of "ruler over a province"). He didn't come to this end to "seek and save" sinners. GOD can use anyone who is willing to be be used by their GOD. (No matter the location or circumstances.) And Daniel had purposed not to defile himself before his GOD(in any of his dealings with persons or ideas---not just food and drink---as was shown by his life style.)

 

[CMike]

In Judaism there is no barrier between the person and G-d.

Someone may pray for someone else but we are all responsible for attoning for our own sins and making our own prayer directly to G-d.

 

[sincerly]

In Judaism there is no barrier between the person and G-d.

Someone may pray for someone else but we are all responsible for attoning for our own sins and making our own prayer directly to G-d.

Hi Mike, Sin has always been a barrier between the sinner and the Creator GOD. That is why GOD in Lev.17:11 states, "For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul."
Yes, the sinner brought the sacrificial animal to the Altar and laying his hand upon the head of the animal confessed his sins then cut animals throat . The Priest took the blood of the animal and applied it as specified for the Atoning/reconciliation to the Father.

 

[javajo]

Besides the fact that 2 Timothy is Pseudipigraphic, let's examine the rest of the context: The word here is also used for "Disown". (NIV)
Disown can mean those who simply turn their back on belief in him altogether.

Right. If we deny or disown Christ, reject Christ and his death on the cross to have paid the penalty of our sin, he rejects us. For it is only through the cross that any man may get to Heaven, it is like a bridge...

Also, perhaps you'd like to explain what exactly you think "Dead to sin" means.

Dead to sin means that sin no longer holds power over us. We are dead to sin and alive unto God. The strength of sin is the law, the sting of sin is death. If there was a law that could make us righteous, God would have given it, but righteousness comes by faith in Christ alone. When we trust in Christ we are dead to the sting of death and the law that shows us we have sinned. The law is good in that it shows us we all have sinned and are in need of a Saviour. When we consider ourselves dead to sin, we do not let sin rule us, we can overcome it and actually obey God's Law, now written in our hearts, even better.

Do you think this means you can sin however you want but what you do is not considered sin?

No, sin is still sin and has consequences in this life and the next.

Since you say "Not sinless", how do you define "Dead to sin", as a "Get out of sin free" Card where sin is not really sin? Obviously it means avoiding sin (i.e. "lawlessness").

Sin is still sin and no one gets by with it, it has its consequences now and hereafter, eternal consequences, even for believers, being dead to sin, because we are crucified with Christ, buried with him in baptism, having trusted him, we can have power and victory over sin, because we are, in fact, dead to it. Avoiding sin is just part of it, a by-product of being dead to sin because of Christ's finished work on the cross and having trusted him. For if our sins are forgiven and paid for and we now have God's righteousness freely given to us and his Spirit living in us, we can overcome sin or lawlessness with his power working in us. However, I said we are not sinless because we still have our old sinful nature, our 'old man', so we are not yet made completely perfect. Scripture says to put on the new man and not yield to the old man, to sin. But we will not be completely sinless until the resurrection and rapture of living believers when we shall all be changed from mortal to immortal and from corrupt (sinful) to incorrupt (sinless). (1 Cor, 15, 1 Thess. 4) To be dead to sin the way I phrased it is actually defined in Romans 6:

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Now also note another critical issue: It says we must ENDURE or SUFFER. Do you think suffering or enduring merely means keeping up this particular Theology of yours? I assume you don't think it involves actually obeying his teachings, right? So how does the suffering part play into your equation?

It says if we suffer, we will reign with him. Those Christians (already freely saved believers in Christ) who suffer persecution, ridicule, death, torture, imprisonment etc. for believing in Christ or sharing the Gospel will be rewarded. Part of that reward is they will have higher positions in Christ's Kingdom and will rule and reign with him. Many Christians at the Judgment Seat of Christ will have all their works burn up like wood, hay and stubble, but will still be saved, but without reward or position. Other's works will endure and be as gold, silver and precious jewels and they will have honor and position in Christ's Kingdom.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor. 5
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 1 Cor. 3


Just as there are varying degrees of Hell, there are varying degrees for believers, eternity will not be the same for all believers, although they are saved from Hell. Those who have matured and grown in grace and sacrificed and perhaps gave their lives for Christ will have much more than those who got saved but did not grow much, did not try to overcome sin and loved this world too much and did little or nothing for Christ. Look at how much Paul went through, beaten, stoned, imprisoned, shipwrecked, etc. to reach the lost...Now he will have great reward, me, not so much, but I'm working on it.

 

[Shermana]

Okay, so please explain why Paul says that unrepentant fornicators won't enter the Kingdom.

 

[Shermana]

From what is known about Cerinthus and seen in the other Gospels concerning John, you picked a poor substitute for the writer of the Gospel of John and therefore the Revelation.
John still fills the bill of author of both. However, one can readily understand your desire to discredit both "books"---- They show the results of "denying Jesus".

Feel free to explain why denying what the Later Churches fathers said about who wrote John counts as denying Jesus, and why we know that John "fills the bill" exactly as opposed to what Caius and others said. In detail. If you feel I picked a "poor substitute", I hope you're prepared to discuss this and why you necessarily think Iraneus was right about him.

 

[F0uad]

There are numerous passages of persons "worshiping Jesus"---from lepers to young rulers.(Jesus didn't correct them and say worship is due only GOD. However, when tempted by Satan, Jesus did say one should worship only GOD.) The Father acknowledged Jesus as HIS beloved SON several times during Jesus ministery. The Angel Gabriel which appeared to Mary was, no doubt, the same a was sent to Joseph and exclaimed that the Baby Jesus was to be named Emmanuel=="GOD with us"...."HE shall save HIS people from their sins".

Please stop this Emmanuel prophecy it directly contradicts anyway you haven't shown any verse were Jesus(p) says: I AM GOD, WORSHIP ME or that he is a Part of a trinity. So please show me the verses where he utters those words.

Denied as the SON of GOD; Denied as dying upon the Cross; Denied as being the propitiation for the sins of the world(Everyone).
As far as the BIBLE, all those writers were Jews who wrote in the Greek language, because that Empire preceeded the Now ruling Roman Empire.
The "Everlasting Gospel" remains the same principles and truth from the Creator GOD from the Creation of this world/earth until GOD Creates the "new heavens and new earth". Obey or "deny" it---along with(promised) "the Lamb of GOD slain from before the foundation of the world".

According to the gospel Peter and John were illiterate so John and Peter could have never written anything. If your claim that the eye-witnesses wrote them then explain to me how the scriptures are dated back from 60 to 220 Years after Jesus(p) and still can be called eye-witness testimony?

Matt.20:25-28, "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many".
Luke 24:27, 44-48, "And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things."

That isn't what he said, i highlighted the area what he said on your post.

It seems humanity has a hard time even understanding the "thus saith the Lord GOD".

I have a hard time understanding your point..

 

[Shermana]

Emmanuel can also mean, and probably means "God is with us", it seems most Trinitarians don't even accept this possibility that it has an "is".

Neither does it seem they understand how Hebrew names work. Is Obadiah the incarnation of God too by this name logic?

 

[javajo]

Okay, so please explain why Paul says that unrepentant fornicators won't enter the Kingdom.

I think he said they would not inherit the Kingdom of God. Now, an unbelieving, thus unrepentant fornicator, who has not repented of the fornication or repented, changed his mind about how he thinks he can earn salvation through his own good (dead) works and through the works of the Law, and rejected the gift by faith in Christ, does not inherit the Kingdom or salvation. Now, believers who have fallen into this sin are addressed In 1 &2 Corinthians, where Paul addressed the many gross, immoral sins that the believers, saved people in the church were engaged in. One of whom had sex with his Dad's wife. In first Cor. Paul told them to deliver him to Satan for the destruction of the flesh yet the soul would be saved, then in second Cor. Paul told them to forgive, restore him and comfort him so he could bare the sorrow of what he had done. Of course this fellow was an unrepentant fornicator in the first little while and Paul said he was still saved! Then he repented and was restored to fellowship later on and was thus back in the Kingdom. For the Kingdom of God is not Heaven as some think, but it is within believers and it is the body of believers in Heaven and here on earth who are serving the Lord together. An unrepentant fornicator is not serving the Lord in this life and is not in the Kingdom AND will not inherit a postion in Christ's Kingdom nor have reward, he will suffer loss yet be saved as by fire. No positon, no reward. That's what it means. But Paul says of believers, such were some of you, but you were bought with a price, so glorify God in your body. So, most often an UNREPENTANT fornicator, murderer, liar, their or whatever (sinner), is one who has not trusted Christ in the first place. A lot of people also have the sin of pride, which is even worse, and will not repent from the works of the Law to faith in Christ who died for them, thus denying and disowning Christ, and not trusting alone, by faith alone, in Christ alone.

 

[Shermana]

Since when was there a distinction between the "Kingdom of Heaven" (also called "Kingdom of God" interchanged) and Heaven itself? When it involved your view being proved wrong by Paul?

 

[Bob Dixon]

For the Kingdom of God is not Heaven as some think

[citation needed]

 

[sincerly]

There are numerous passages of persons "worshiping Jesus"---from lepers to young rulers.(Jesus didn't correct them and say worship is due only GOD. However, when tempted by Satan, Jesus did say one should worship only GOD.) The Father acknowledged Jesus as HIS beloved SON several times during Jesus ministery. The Angel Gabriel which appeared to Mary was, no doubt, the same a was sent to Joseph and exclaimed that the Baby Jesus was to be named Emmanuel=="GOD with us"...."HE shall save HIS people from their sins".

Please stop this Emmanuel prophecy it directly contradicts anyway you haven't shown any verse were Jesus(p) says: I AM GOD, WORSHIP ME or that he is a Part of a trinity. So please show me the verses where he utters those words.

The prophecy given to Joseph(concerning Mary and the Baby Jesus) is true. And the name "Emmanuel=="GOD with us=="HE shall save HIS people from their sins" is true to who JESUS was/is and the mission Jesus(the Son of GOD the Father) came to /and did accomplish.
Why should I stop? Yes, it does "contradict" the Quran, but that is a corruption of the "Thus saith the Lord" who Created all things.
When Jesus conversed with the Samaritan woman at the well(John4:21-42), Jesus acknowledged that, "I am HE". Then many of the people of the city after listening to Jesus(for two days) believed as well. Thomas, after the Crucifixion, confessed upon seeing Jesus--"My Lord , and my GOD." Jesus didn't rebuke Thomas, but declared, (John 20:29), "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed."
Thomas acknowledged a truth and Jesus confirmed it.
What plainer could Jesus acknowledge HIS part in the Trinity than by Matt.28:19, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:..."

According to the gospel Peter and John were illiterate so John and Peter could have never written anything. If your claim that the eye-witnesses wrote them then explain to me how the scriptures are dated back from 60 to 220 Years after Jesus(p) and still can be called eye-witness testimony?

Those Apostles were given the ability to speak in a language which they were not born with----Why the "claim"----"""they could have never written anything."""???
The Creator GOD whom I know isn't limited by man's doubts.
ALL the NT epistles were written before the The temple was destroyed in AD 70.
What makes you think that 35 years makes/renders an eye-witness's accounting void???

Matt.20:25-28, "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many".
Luke 24:27, 44-48, "And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things."

That isn't what he said, i highlighted the area what he said on your post.

Jesus said those two verses I posted. Are you saying Jesus lied?? The "Thus it is written" continuation is, also, Jesus speaking.
The Disciples understanding was opened as is evident in the Gospels, Epistles and Acts.

It seems humanity has a hard time even understanding the "thus saith the Lord GOD".

I have a hard time understanding your point..[/quote]

You just proved the point.

 

[sincerly]

Emmanuel can also mean, and probably means "God is with us", it seems most Trinitarians don't even accept this possibility that it has an "is".

Neither does it seem they understand how Hebrew names work. Is Obadiah the incarnation of God too by this name logic?

Matt.1:23, "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
There is NO "is" in that interpretation of "Emmanuel".

Obadiah = "servant of Jehovah". Therefore, your answer is NO! Which, of course, you knew when you posed the question. There was no "possibility" for such. Unless, you are willing to acknowledge that it refers truly as this Baby is GOD with us.