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What ever happened to ISIS?

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
One may speculate on what role France's intervention in Lybia or the USA's in Iraq may have had in the creation of ISIS.

Personally, I think that ISIS is mainly the direct legacy of the sudden marginalization of a significant Sunni minority that used to have positions of power in Iraq, which was being eased into a new basically Shia regime.

Being denied the means to integrate and having a lot of military experience, they were virtually forced to become a rebel militia.

Of course, a lot of the reason why they were in such a difficult situation comes from their own hostility to the Shia majority for decades...

In that sense, yes, I think that a considerable amount of the blame goes to the USA and perhaps even France. But we can not forget that it would hardly be possible for that blame to exist if the Shia and Sunni contingents were not so consistently willing to take arms against each other instead of attempting some form of diplomatic agreement.

"The West" may well have been foolish and destructive in its interference. But we must be careful not to take for granted that the native Muslims can have no other attitude beyond that of angry militias seeking some convenient leadership or another to wash any responsibility out of their hands.

Among other reasons, of course because if they can have no other role then there is only so much that can be done to cooperate with their future, their dignity, and their prospects at peace.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Oh, so you're being very specific with 95% number.
Okay, I'll change it from 95% to majority of scholars.

But ... still ... let's say there are only 100 leading Islamic Ulema/Molvis alive today in total. If you could find me
1. 5 scholars (no need for them to be leading)
2. who do not belong to the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community
3. who believe that the Islamic punishment for apostasy is not death
4. who are still alive

then I'll eat my words. And if you can not fulfill the above 4 conditions then I rest my case. My Google didn't work out but you may be more of an expert.
I take it that this is a major difference between Ahmadiyya religious authorities and those of other Muslims, then?
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
... okay so let's see ... several times you will see a pattern whereby reading verse(s) above/below solves the dilemma ...
Also note that my verse numbers may differ by one due to a technicality


I think you quoted this wrong.
[Qur'an 2:192] "And kill them wherever you meet them and drive them out from where they have driven you out; for persecution is worse than killing. And fight them not in, and near, the Sacred Mosque until they fight you therein. But if they fight you, then fight them: such is the requital for the disbelievers.

But don't bother reading the verse the precedes it or the verse that follows? Why?
[Qur'an 2:191] "And fight in the cause of Allah against those who fight against you, but do not transgress. Surely, Allah loves not the transgressors."
[Qur'an 2:193] "But if they desist, then surely Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful."


That was pretty straightforward I think. You wrote (unbelievers) in brackets yet the previous verse clearly clarifies that "them" refers not to unbelievers but to fight-against-you unbelievers.


Again, out of context. The Qur'an says:
[Qur'an 60:9] "Allah forbids you not, respecting those who have not fought against you on account of your religion, and who have not driven you forth from your homes, that you be kind to them and act equitably towards them; surely Allah loves those who are equitable."

So given the above the following verse that you quoted obviously refers to a specific set of Jews/Christians situation.
[Qur'an 5:52] "O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. And whoso among you takes them for friends is indeed one of them. Verily, Allah guides not the unjust people."

But if we read on 6 verses later
[Qur'an 5:58] "O ye who believe! take not those for friends who make a jest and sport of your religion from among those who were given the Book before you, and the disbelievers. And fear Allah if you are believers;"

But if there is still any doubt left you may like to read:
[Qur'an 41:35] "And good and evil are not alike. Repel evil with that which is best. And lo, he between whom and thyself was enmity will become as though he were a warm friend."

Great advice. I pray this was satisfying for you. But if not feel free to counter-argue. Thank you for reading.
I like you, you seem like a good humble non-violent Muslim? I love good peaceful Muslims. :)

Thing is, i don't know how to interpret the Qu'ran. It has stuff that comes accross as hateful, brutal, barbaric psychopathic torture, mutilation, and murder of people like me, and some muslims commit those crimes, and surely find justification in those verses.
 

KT Shamim

Ahmadiyya Muslim Community
I take it that this is a major difference between Ahmadiyya religious authorities and those of other Muslims, then?
Oh yes, using the Qur'an we show our point of view. You should ask the other scholars how they prove theirs (*wink* they don't *wink*). For example:

No Punishment for Apostasy
[Qur'an 3:73] And a section of the People of the Book say, ‘Believe in that which has been revealed unto the believers, in the early part of day, and disbelieve in the latter part thereof; perchance they may return;
How could they plan this if Islam prescribed punishments for apostasy?

No Punishment for Blasphemy
[Qur'an 3:187] "... you shall surely hear many hurtful things from those who were given the Book before you and from those who set up equals to God. But if you show fortitude and act righteously, that indeed is a matter of strong determination."

The more you investigate the more you realize how scholars have pulled such a smokescreen over the masses. Typical in the history of religion. And as always God sends someone who clears it up.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
"The West" may well have been foolish and destructive in its interference. But we must be careful not to take for granted that the native Muslims can have no other attitude beyond that of angry militias seeking some convenient leadership or another to wash any responsibility out of their hands.

Among other reasons, of course because if they can have no other role then there is only so much that can be done to cooperate with their future, their dignity, and their prospects at peace.

That's absolutely true...but it has little to do with religion...and lots with anthropology.
Italy has been doing anything for decades to create a Mediterranean Union with the Arab countries...we mostly received negative, cold responses.

There is no unity not even among Arab countries.
Gaddafi said "The relations that Libya has with Italy are 1000 times better than with any Arab country"
 
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danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
...
No Punishment for Blasphemy
[Qur'an 3:187] "... you shall surely hear many hurtful things from those who were given the Book before you and from those who set up equals to God. But if you show fortitude and act righteously, that indeed is a matter of strong determination."
Isn’t it dishonest to say no punishment for blasphemy when you believe people should be fined for blasphemy?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Sorry..I didn't understand the sentence

Luis..can I kindly ask you to reply to me in Portuguese? Your sentences in English are not that clear
I will have to insist otherwise. I do overreach often, but I have a goal to overcome that limitation as much as a can.

I can certainly reword it, though.

What I meant was that, uninformed as I am about how Libya and Italy see each other, I extrapolated from other situations that I know of and assumed that Italy was seen by Libyans under an unfavorable light.

Apparently not.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Oh, so you're being very specific with 95% number.
Okay, I'll change it from 95% to majority of scholars.

But ... still ... let's say there are only 100 leading Islamic Ulema/Molvis alive today in total. If you could find me
1. 5 scholars (no need for them to be leading)
2. who do not belong to the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community
3. who believe that the Islamic punishment for apostasy is not death
4. who are still alive

then I'll eat my words. And if you can not fulfill the above 4 conditions then I rest my case. My Google didn't work out but you may be more of an expert.


You made he 95% claim, dont blame me for your specifics
I quote your post #151 "Their leading scholars though ... 95% of them are jihadists and what not."


So you are dodging and trying to put the ownness ow me... not happening.
 

KT Shamim

Ahmadiyya Muslim Community
Isn’t it dishonest to say no punishment for blasphemy when you believe people should be fined for blasphemy?
Hmm ...
Valid question. But that's a secular recommendation for general inflammatory hate-speech which may include blasphemy.

Specifically for blasphemy Muslims are enjoined to be patient as the verses I quoted indicate.

Maybe I should say no corporal punishment for blasphemy? Will that seem more honest?
 

KT Shamim

Ahmadiyya Muslim Community
You made he 95% claim, dont blame me for your specifics
I quote your post #151 "Their leading scholars though ... 95% of them are jihadists and what not."


So you are dodging and trying to put the ownness ow me... not happening.
Unless anyone finds 5 scholars per conditions above I'll stick to it I think
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Unless anyone finds 5 scholars per conditions above I'll stick to it I think

But you have not provided evidence for your claim, on the contrary you are dodging protocol and demanding others disprove your claim.
 

KT Shamim

Ahmadiyya Muslim Community
I like you, you seem like a good humble non-violent Muslim? I love good peaceful Muslims. :)

Thing is, i don't know how to interpret the Qu'ran. It has stuff that comes accross as hateful, brutal, barbaric psychopathic torture, mutilation, and murder of people like me, and some muslims commit those crimes, and surely find justification in those verses.
It is good that I come across as peaceful. But I am so because of Islam not inspite of it. So to continue ...

9:1, 3, 5 and that Allah will humiliate the unbelievers…. And give glad tidings to the unbelievers of a painful punishment…. When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Take them and confine them, then lie in ambush everywhere for them.”

Controversial Verses in Chapter 9
Those verses very clearly have a limited scope as defined explicitly early on in the same chapter. But, once again, people don't bother reading.
[Qur'an 9:4] "Excepting those of the idolaters with whom you have entered into a treaty and who have not subsequently failed you in anything nor aided anyone against you. So fulfil to these the treaty you have made with them till their term. Surely, Allah loves those who are righteous."
[Qur'an 9:6] "And if anyone of the idolaters ask protection of thee, grant him protection so that he may hear the word of Allah; then convey him to his place of security. That is because they are a people who have no knowledge".


The verses above are self-explanatory and very clearly contextualize the verses you quoted from the same chapter. We should put our thought into and at least analyze the surrounding verses before quoting. This sort of cherry-picking is what ISIS depends on ... is it really fair to blame Islam and the Qur'an then? Specially when we know the sort of dishonesty ISIS are used to adopting.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
It is good that I come across as peaceful. But I am so because of Islam not inspite of it. So to continue ...



Controversial Verses in Chapter 9
Those verses very clearly have a limited scope as defined explicitly early on in the same chapter. But, once again, people don't bother reading.
[Qur'an 9:4] "Excepting those of the idolaters with whom you have entered into a treaty and who have not subsequently failed you in anything nor aided anyone against you. So fulfil to these the treaty you have made with them till their term. Surely, Allah loves those who are righteous."
[Qur'an 9:6] "And if anyone of the idolaters ask protection of thee, grant him protection so that he may hear the word of Allah; then convey him to his place of security. That is because they are a people who have no knowledge".


The verses above are self-explanatory and very clearly contextualize the verses you quoted from the same chapter. We should put our thought into and at least analyze the surrounding verses before quoting. This sort of cherry-picking is what ISIS depends on ... is it really fair to blame Islam and the Qur'an then? Specially when we know the sort of dishonesty ISIS are used to adopting.
None of those vereses you quoted justify cutting off hands and feet or crucifying people in this life or the next, under any circumstances!
 

Andraste09

New Member
They faced a string of defeats in Iraq and Syria, thus what little remains of Daesh has been pushed underground.
Good riddance! May Allah show them no mercy for their crimes.

5:32 "Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land – it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one – it is as if he had saved mankind entirely."
Yet .... verse 5:32 Rather shows that Muhammad plagiarized Jewish scriptures.. The verse you quoted is ripped straight out of the Jewish Talmud which is 600 years older than muhammads made up cult ..
 
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