What evidence would be required for you to abandon your religious belief

[Mackerni]

Well, that is where we're going to have to disagree. Christ's Sacrifice was for all sins - past , present and future. His Sacrifice was/is the Key that unlocks the gates of Heaven. But it's up to you to accept it.

Sounds like Christianity is a members-only club, and to be a member you have to believe something blindly. Sounds foolish to me.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Sounds like Christianity is a members-only club, and to be a member you have to believe something blindly. Sounds foolish to me.

No one said anything about "blindly".

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

He seemed to have all randomly decided to accuse me of believing that my religion teaches that we're saved by grace through faith alone. That's more of a Baptist or Evangelical concept. Catholicism teaches that it's faith and good works (i.e. living in a Christ-like manner), along with active repentance, that are the path to Salvation. So him telling me that silliness is ironic since it's Catholics who are usually accused of following a "man-made religion of works" by Protestants. Lol.

That's was James and Jesus' followers believed, but not after Paul finished re-working things:

"But didn’t he earn his right to heaven by all the good things he did? No, for being saved is a gift; if a person could earn it by being good, then it wouldn’t be free—but it is! It is given to those who do not work for it. For God declares sinners to be good in his sight if they have faith in Christ to save them from God’s wrath."--- Romans 4:4

You could, for all intents and purposes, call this spiritual welfare. But of course Paul (a Roman citizen which came to him through his Herodian heritage) was only interested in selling religion to the Romans--though he did want to be able to claim James' blessing, him being Jesus' brother and all, a delicate balancing act which fell through when Paul was arrested at the Temple riot he caused.

 

[Deidre]

The point is that we're here to make our moral choices ourselves. No one can sacrifice himself as a substitute for a person's genuine repentance, much less so that he doesn't even have to try to be good as Paul declared. The idea is Satanic, symbolically speaking of course. Paul was almost certainly the Beast of Revelation, the number of the beast (which isn't 666, Arabic numerals coming later) is Jewish Gematria for Tarsus. Let him who has wisdom understand. (Which I'm not claiming btw. I was put on to Gematria by some modern day Jewish followers of (a human) Jesus, Ebionites.



Yes, sorry, I gotta go where the evidence, or lack of it, leads me, and this just looks like a set up. You may be sincere, but I don't see an inkling of anything that would make me doubt the rock solid reality I've been witness to, and seen the evidence build up for, all my life. Why would God or the Holy Spirit or whatever seek out a minuscule chosen few and give you nothing but It's word as validation--in the face of this vast, exceedingly rational universe. If God was going to break It's silence and violate our free will, why not everywhere at once, in all the different languages, so no one could exploit that power? How do we know it's not a hallucination, or a (self-)deception? How do you know? Did you at least receive some proof, some verification? We're hearing this on the Internet after all, and look at all that unbroken string of false religions, with none of them having the first thing to show for themselves besides hearsay.

If you'd been told to sacrifice one of your children, or even your dog, would you have? I don't ask that question lightly This stuff is dangerous.

I don't have kids, and I just shared my experience. You don't need to believe it, and I'm not trying to convince you to.

But, if you would like to have a dialogue with me, don't disparage and insult me. I didn't do that to anyone, but if you would like to do that, then I'm not engaging in dialogue with you.

 

[viole]

Having said all of that ^^....are you happy? Does this belief system bring you joy, and peace?

Do you think the odds of something being true is increased by giving us joy and peace?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Lyndon]

Do you think the odds of something being true is increased by giving us joy and peace?

Ciao

- viole

Yes, of course, something that didn't exist would be expected to give you nothing at all.

 

[Deidre]

Do you think the odds of something being true is increased by giving us joy and peace?

Ciao

- viole

no, but people tend to follow belief systems that yield those things as results. at least in part.

 

[viole]

Yes, of course, something that didn't exist would be expected to give you nothing at all.

I am not talking of the effects of a deity, I am talking about the effects of believing in that deity.

In other words: Do you think I could not possibly find joy and peace in believing in something that, ultimately, does not exist?

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

no, but people tend to follow belief systems that yield those things as results. at least in part.

And that includes you?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Deidre]

No one is stating that in order to find joy, peace, etc…one needs to believe in a deity. But, if one does, one of the ‘byproducts’ of it for want of a better word, is peace and joy. At least I think so.

 

[Lyndon]

I am not talking of the effects of a deity, I am talking about the effects of believing in that deity.

In other words: Do you think I could not possibly find joy and peace in believing in something that, ultimately, does not exist?

Ciao

- viole

You do appear to attain smugness and contentment from a belief that deities don't exist. But that's entirely psychosomatic.

 

[viole]

No one is stating that in order to find joy, peace, etc…one needs to believe in a deity. But, if one does, one of the ‘byproducts’ of it for want of a better word, is peace and joy. At least I think so.

Do these byproducts increase the likelihood of the existence of such deity?

The only evidence, if any, is that belief sorts some effect. Not the actual existence of the object of belief.

Don't you think so?

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

You do appear to attain smugness and contentment from a belief that deities don't exist. But that's entirely psychosomatic.

Which does not answer the question. Obviously.

Do you think I, or anyone else, cannot possibly achieve joy and peace by believing in X, even if X does not exist?

If not. Why not?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Deidre]

Do these byproducts increase the likelihood of the existence of such deity?

The only evidence, if any, is that belief sorts some effect. Not the actual existence of the object of belief.

Don't you think so?

Ciao

- viole

I wouldn’t have returned to Christianity (which was the last thing on my mind) if I wasn’t convinced that I had a true experience of faith. I know it sounds crazy, but it happened.

I don’t expect anyone to believe it. Not too long ago, I wouldn’t have ‘’believed’’ it.

Let me as you a question. Why do you care what I believe?

 

[Robert.Evans]

I am not talking of the effects of a deity, I am talking about the effects of believing in that deity.

In other words: Do you think I could not possibly find joy and peace in believing in something that, ultimately, does not exist?

Ciao

- viole

How do you know it does not ultimately exist? That is a strange point to make

 

[Robert.Evans]

Do these byproducts increase the likelihood of the existence of such deity?

The only evidence, if any, is that belief sorts some effect. Not the actual existence of the object of belief.

Don't you think so?

Ciao

- viole

The conviction or faith of the person if proof of God (for one) as it comes from him. Now 'you' may dress that up with whatever philosophy you want, but that is the answer.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

 

[Robert.Evans]

The point is that we're here to make our moral choices ourselves. No one can sacrifice himself as a substitute for a person's genuine repentance, much less so that he doesn't even have to try to be good as Paul declared. The idea is Satanic, symbolically speaking of course. Paul was almost certainly the Beast of Revelation, the number of the beast (which isn't 666, Arabic numerals coming later) is Jewish Gematria for Tarsus. Let him who has wisdom understand. (Which I'm not claiming btw. I was put on to Gematria by some modern day Jewish followers of (a human) Jesus, Ebionites.



Yes, sorry, I gotta go where the evidence, or lack of it, leads me, and this just looks like a set up. You may be sincere, but I don't see an inkling of anything that would make me doubt the rock solid reality I've been witness to, and seen the evidence build up for, all my life. Why would God or the Holy Spirit or whatever seek out a minuscule chosen few and give you nothing but It's word as validation--in the face of this vast, exceedingly rational universe. If God was going to break It's silence and violate our free will, why not everywhere at once, in all the different languages, so no one could exploit that power?

because everyone is different. Isn't that obvious?

How do we know it's not a hallucination, or a (self-)deception? How do you know?

How do you know it's not non-believers that are deluded? No one can believe in something they know nothing about.

Did you at least receive some proof, some verification? We're hearing this on the Internet after all, and look at all that unbroken string of false religions, with none of them having the first thing to show for themselves besides hearsay.

they are not false, just different....many thoughts of one mind

If you'd been told to sacrifice one of your children, or even your dog, would you have? I don't ask that question lightly This stuff is dangerous.

No I would not. The Divine law says, Do not kill. It is an interpretation lower down the consciousness level of this aeon that changes it to kill. But it does that because it follows a fractal pattern already expressed.

 

[viole]

How do you know it does not ultimately exist? That is a strange point to make

I don't. But suppose it does not exist. Do you think I cannot possibly find joy and peace in believing in it?

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

I wouldn’t have returned to Christianity (which was the last thing on my mind) if I wasn’t convinced that I had a true experience of faith. I know it sounds crazy, but it happened.

I don’t expect anyone to believe it. Not too long ago, I wouldn’t have ‘’believed’’ it.

Let me as you a question. Why do you care what I believe?

I don't. You are free to believe anything. But since you are in a forum discussing these things, then it is obviously that I target you, as any other Christian or believers in competing deities.

For sure I would call anybody out who states that belief in a (benevolent) deity is evidence that such deity exists. You did not do that, but I think it is obvious that the only evidence we have is that belief in that deity provides such benefits. Nothing more, nothing less.

Ciao

- viole