What exactly is "lust"?

[T-Dawg]

How do I define lust? Recently I've found that looking at pictures of beautiful Indian girls helps me to relax and feel good in general, but I'm wondering if this is a bad idea. Here's a quote from a non-Christian (Taoist, I think) on the subject:

Lust is sexual attraction. According to your religion, God doesn't want you feeling any sexual attraction for anybody except your wife, and then you should only feel it for long enough to procreate. He wants you to feel agape love, which is a kind of love that doesn't distinguish between Eugene Levy in a leisure suit and a hot Indian chick with her naked feet out for all to see (and touch). God will probably be OK with you looking at pictures of hot Indian girls, though, as long as you spend roughly the same amount of time (or preferably more) looking at pictures of lepers and ensure your feelings of love are the same for both.

I'm... pretty sure that this isn't the attitude in the Bible, but what do you guys think?

 

[Dunemeister]

"Lust" can have positive or negative meanings. Positively, it means something like zest or relish, as in "He has such a lust for life." Negatively, it means "irresistable craving." The desire is so strong it beggars your attempts at controlling it. It is (or is nearly) impossible to resist. Thus one might have a lust for sex, money, power, or any number of other things.

Lust is not the same as sexual attraction. I'm married and I am sexually attracted by my wife. But I'm also sexually attracted to other women at times. This is not morally questionable, even by Christian lights. It's mere biology. Sexual attraction becomes lust when accompanied by something like obsession or when my attraction tips over to entertaining plans to make good on that attraction. At that point, I've begun sinning and need to repent.

Looking at beautiful Indian girls, in and of itself, is not sinful. But it's a bit odd that you need such a means to "relax", and I'm suspicious about the spiritual dynamics that would lead to the use of beautiful women as objects to assuage my tension. Christian tradition and spiritual disciplines (if you're a Christian) will provide all you need to release tension of all sorts, including sexual tension.

 

[T-Dawg]

Ok, thanks, that makes sense... what do you mean you're suspicious about the "spiritual dynamics that would lead to the use of beautiful women to assuage tension"? And what are these Christian traditions and spiritual disciplines you mentioned?

 

[Dunemeister]

If you want something on classic Christian disciplines, pick up The Divine Conspiracy by Dallas Willard. In it, he describes such things as prayer, meditation, fasting, service, proclamation, worship, and other activities that deepen a person's connection with God. That connection, and not gawking at beautiful girls, will provide the inner peace that you're looking for, if that is indeed what is lacking.

It's also possible to relax or release physical tension by playing vigorous sports like football, hockey or squash.

I'm suspicious that in order to "relax" the method you've landed on is looking at beautiful girls. This may all be quite innocent, but I suspect (based on my ministry experience with men in general and admittedly without any information about you personally) that there's something a bit more sinister going on. Why not stare at icons or at beautiful landscapes? Why not meditate on any one of God's wonders or attributes or great deeds? Why not, indeed, play sports to relax? Is it because the tension is sexual or emotional rather than physical? If that's the case, tightening community bonds in Christ through corporate spiritual disciplines is the best remedy, at least for those who confess Jesus as Lord. And if it's truly serious (or perhaps medical) counselling at the hand of a qualified professional may be in order.

 

[T-Dawg]

Those will work? I must being doing them wrong... if anything, the pressure to pray and worship "correctly" increases tension, especially since I know I can't do anything right...

I've never really had an interest in sports. Just more tension to add to life when the desire to play sports just isn't there.

I don't know, I just like girls. I don't really have any interests in life. What do you mean by "sinister"? Are you trying to say that you think I'm trying to hide something? Beautiful landscapes... hmm... I don't know, it's just something about women. Is an appreciation of the beauty of women over the beauty of other things a bad sign? And yes, the tension is emotional and sexual... probably comes from the fact that all of the girls I ever liked either hated me or hated dating in general (or more often, both). How do I tighten community bonds like you say? Doesn't that require me to have some sort of community that I can bond with (my small group might work, but I can't think of any other communities in particular...)?
And I don't think it's medical, and I already have counselling that focuses on my emotional tension (though not on this specific issue).

 

[Dunemeister]

Those will work? I must being doing them wrong... if anything, the pressure to pray and worship "correctly" increases tension, especially since I know I can't do anything right...

Yes, they'll work. And as Willard points out, it's not about doing them "right." There's no "right" way to pray or worship. Just get into it.

I don't know, I just like girls. I don't really have any interests in life. What do you mean by "sinister"? Are you trying to say that you think I'm trying to hide something?

No, at least not culpably. If you need to "relax" and your method is staring at beautiful girls, I'm suspicious that there's something other than physical tension at issue here.

Beautiful landscapes... hmm... I don't know, it's just something about women. Is an appreciation of the beauty of women over the beauty of other things a bad sign? And yes, the tension is emotional and sexual... probably comes from the fact that all of the girls I ever liked either hated me or hated dating in general (or more often, both).

It's not a sin to be lonely or emotionally or relationally needy. But there are appropriate ways of dealing with that, and staring at beautiful girls isn't one of them. Mark my words. Staring at beautiful women will eventually develop into something else, something you'll probably want to be kept secret.

How do I tighten community bonds like you say? Doesn't that require me to have some sort of community that I can bond with (my small group might work, but I can't think of any other communities in particular...)?

Yep, your small group is a good start. But you might also want to increase your community involvement by finding places to be useful. For instance, you might volunteer at a homeless shelter or help out in the church nursery or take up other projects that would bring beauty and order to a chaotic world. Talk to your small group about ways you can do that; find out where the world's needs and your passions intersect. Your service to the world will help with your lonliness and disappointment.

The other disciplines, such as prayer, fasting, and so on, if they are done under the tutelage of a decent spiritual director, can pay huge dividends by soaking your mind in the love and aspirations of God. It has worked that way for me.

And I don't think it's medical, and I already have counselling that focuses on my emotional tension (though not on this specific issue).

Okay, well that's a relief. You should advise your counsellor about your habit of looking at those pictures. Bring samples to your next meeting and allow your counsellor, who knows you a whole lot better than I do, to specifically advise you how to proceed.

Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. Let your gentleness be known to everyone. The Lord is near. Do not worry about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.


Finally, beloved, whatever is true, whatever is honourable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is pleasing, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence and if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Keep on doing the things that you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, and the God of peace will be with you.
Philippians 4:4-10

 

[T-Dawg]

The Bible says there's a right way to pray, or at least my pastor said that's what Jesus taught on prayer... something like the "Lord's Prayer," I think that's what it's called, and you're supposed to pray about things in that particular order. I personally find it disturbing that God only wants us to pray in a certain way, but meh.

What would an "appropriate" way of dealing with it be? (Please don't say I should release my sexual tension by masturbating, I've tried it before and it simply doesn't work for me) Staring at beautiful women will eventually lead to something else? You mean like pornography? =O I'm not really staring at them, but I suppose glancing at them for a while could lead to me eventually getting comfortable with staring...

I don't even know if my area has a homeless shelter... I've never seen one... even if I happened to come across one, I wouldn't know what to do. The problem with finding somewhere where the world's needs and my passions intersect is that I have no passions (besides the natural tendency to be attracted to girls. Oh, and I'm looking into hypnosis, but I'm not sure where the world would need it...). I was into video games not all that long ago, but now that summer's came along, I don't really feel any desire to play games, oddly enough.

I don't know anyone who could be a spiritual director. There's no one I see frequently enough. I used to hope that my girlfriend could help me spiritually, but then I realized I would never get one. So, fasting is still used? Fasting is going without eating for extended periods of time, right? I don't exactly get how not eating helps a man to develop a closer relationship with God...

The looking at pictures thing isn't really a habit, I just noticed that I liked the feeling I got when I glanced at them and wondered if that was a bad sign.

Here's examples of the kind of stuff I'm talking about: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/sexuality/48148-what-sexiest-ethnic-heritages-12.html
My favorite is the one the other guy posted before I posted the pictures I found. Fyi, I HATE skimpy clothes (bikinis are the epitome of all ugliness), I really like the way Indians dress... you can see some skin, but they cover up enough to make you feel comfortable looking at them (skimpy outfits make me feel rather uneasy, like the woman is out to seduce me, and sometimes it makes me feel like I'm looking at porn even though I might have found the picture completely inadvertedly).

 

[Dunemeister]

The Bible says there's a right way to pray, or at least my pastor said that's what Jesus taught on prayer... something like the "Lord's Prayer," I think that's what it's called, and you're supposed to pray about things in that particular order. I personally find it disturbing that God only wants us to pray in a certain way, but meh.

The Lord's prayer is a fine place to start. It's not important to simply repeat the words. Rather, the prayer orients the pray-er toward God's priorities. And I'm entirely certain that your pastor didn't say that you should only pray this way. I can't imagine anyone saying something so foolish.

What would an "appropriate" way of dealing with it be? (Please don't say I should release my sexual tension by masturbating, I've tried it before and it simply doesn't work for me) Staring at beautiful women will eventually lead to something else? You mean like pornography? =O I'm not really staring at them, but I suppose glancing at them for a while could lead to me eventually getting comfortable with staring...

No, I wouldn't recommend masturbating. I would recommend doing as the citation of Philippians 4 recommends.

I don't even know if my area has a homeless shelter... I've never seen one... even if I happened to come across one, I wouldn't know what to do. The problem with finding somewhere where the world's needs and my passions intersect is that I have no passions (besides the natural tendency to be attracted to girls. Oh, and I'm looking into hypnosis, but I'm not sure where the world would need it...). I was into video games not all that long ago, but now that summer's came along, I don't really feel any desire to play games, oddly enough.

Find some way to be a useful and productive member of the community. I only mentioned a homeless shelter because that's what came to mind first. Ask around at your home group, church, pastor, or whomever. Find out where the needs are and make yourself useful.

I don't know anyone who could be a spiritual director. There's no one I see frequently enough. I used to hope that my girlfriend could help me spiritually, but then I realized I would never get one.

Talk to your pastor and others in your church about this. Somebody knows somebody.

So, fasting is still used? Fasting is going without eating for extended periods of time, right? I don't exactly get how not eating helps a man to develop a closer relationship with God...

I don't know how it works either, but it does.

The looking at pictures thing isn't really a habit, I just noticed that I liked the feeling I got when I glanced at them and wondered if that was a bad sign.

Again, I don't know enough about the situation, but it still sounds a little bit spiritually fishy. However, it may not be, and your counsellor would be the best person to advise you. I don't really have any more to add apart from the vague and general advice I've already given you.

God bless you as you pursue Him in joy and holiness.

 

[T-Dawg]

Philipians 4? I can't see how that could possibly be related to our discussion...

Philipians 4:1-20
Therefore, my brothers, you whom I love and long for, my joy and crown, that is how you should stand firm in the Lord, dear friends! I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to agree with each other in the Lord. Yes, and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women how have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life. Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcneds all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus. Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable - if anything is excellent or praiseworth - think about such things. Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me - put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you. I rejoice greatly in the Lord that at last you have renwed your concern for me. Indeed, you have been concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it. I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plnety or want. I can do everything through him who gives me strength. Yet it was good of you to share in my troubles. Moreover, as you Philippians now, in the early days of your acquaintance with the gospel, when I set out from Macedonia, not one church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving, except you only; for even when I was in Thessalonica, you sent me aid again and again when I was in need. Not that I am looking for a gift, but I am looking for what may be credited to your account. I have received full payment and even more; I am amply supplied, now that I have received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent. They are a fragrant offering, an acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God. And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus. To our God and Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

So, uh... what am I supposed to see here?

 

[Dunemeister]

Philipians 4? I can't see how that could possibly be related to our discussion...

So, uh... what am I supposed to see here?

I lifted out a specific part of that passage in an earlier post, but I'll do it again:

Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcneds all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus. Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable - if anything is excellent or praiseworth - think about such things. Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me - put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.

Based on our discussion, I thought it would be a good reminder for you about how to guard your heart and mind. If you have tension and lack peace, Paul's comments here are relevant. But as I said, this is very generalized advice and your particular circumstances may require something more specific. My primary advice to you is to raise your concerns about the definition of lust and your actions with your counsellor.

 

[git-r-done]

I agree that lust can mean many things. Lust for life is a very good example. There is nothing wrong with that. What I think lust as a bad thing can be and why Christians preach against it, is to prevent lusting for 'sexual" desires or 'power'. Lust for life, love, success, etc.. are fine. But, lust for a women or positions of power can lead to major sins like rape or homicide. That is why I think 'lust' is taught to be bad.

The human guide book known as the bible is of course from the bronze age and humanity knows a lot more now. Men wrote it, not god or jesus, so it does have flaws. And, it is constantly 'updated' and 'edited' to make it more appealing to the masses. I would take what it says with a grain of salt, though it does have some great general guide lines.

**edit** point being, the bible is NOT directly from jesus or god, so though it is a great legacy, one must not take it word for word since the example of "lust" would mean you can't lust for life. Be your own human and take from it what you think is right.

 

[Sunstone]

I think of lust as sexual greed. Although women's romance novels have made the term synonymous with mere "desire".

 

[MarvelousWorksofGod]

Lust is a sin, you should only feel love.

 

[The Middle]

How do I define lust? Recently I've found that looking at pictures of beautiful Indian girls helps me to relax and feel good in general, but I'm wondering if this is a bad idea. Here's a quote from a non-Christian (Taoist, I think) on the subject:



I'm... pretty sure that this isn't the attitude in the Bible, but what do you guys think?

I don't think that there's anything wrong with looking at pictures of beautiful women. However, dwelling upon or obsessing over pornography is detrimental. Ideally, lust should be in the context of a loving and committed relationship.

 

[Thesavorofpan]

What do you think about when you see those girls?

 

[T-Dawg]

No offence, but why do newbie Christians (newbie to RF, not Christianity) keep necroing these old threads?

This is the second time (at least) this has happened to this one thread XD.


Seriously folks, this thread is obselete now. I barely even remember what I was talking about in this thread... XD

 

[sandy whitelinger]

How do I define lust? Recently I've found that looking at pictures of beautiful Indian girls helps me to relax and feel good in general, but I'm wondering if this is a bad idea. Here's a quote from a non-Christian (Taoist, I think) on the subject:



I'm... pretty sure that this isn't the attitude in the Bible, but what do you guys think?

Biblically speaking lust is an unfulfillable desire (ie. it is never satisfied) and is attributed to an irritation of the spirit.