What happens to us when we die, what is the afterlife?

[savethedreams]

Does anybody have any 'near-death experiences'?

Talk to someone who has died before?

What happens to us when we die, NOT a abrhamic religous idea, but anything besides that.....

I have seen a video on afterlife and people walking into a tunnel, a huge light, seeing friends and family... is any of that true?

 

[YmirGF]

It should be noted that I do believe in "near-death experiences" and the possibility of talking to the dead, but with a proviso or two. I don't pretend that my addled view is the sole correct opinion on these matters, though it is true to say that I am not deeply impressed with the opinions of others on the very same topics. So what that means is that though I don't claim to be right, I am fairly certain that the accounts of others are often without serious merit, especially so, when those accounts are veiled in religious overtones. Curiously, I am quite fond of the Wiccan/Pagan notion of Summerland, though I do not subscribe to that concept either. In my view, it's not a bad analogy at all.

Does anybody have any 'near-death experiences'?

Apparently. I have had, quite literally, countless out-of-body experiences. The odd part here is that moments into my very first experience I had the oddest sensation that this was what it was like to be dead. I have not looked at death the same since.

Amusingly, I have been completely assured by some members on RF that these experiences are simply tricks of the mind and that no such bona fide experience exists. Apparently modern science has this all figured out. Given the peculiarities of examining such an experience I now tend to smile at such folks and say, "Well, OK then. I'm glad that is all settled."

Talk to someone who has died before?

In dreams, for sure. From a psychological standpoint, I believe that such dreams can be very therapeutic to a grieving relative, if, of course, they are not freaked out by the experience. I suppose it depends how tenuous their grasp on reality is. Frankly, I'd be a bit skeptical of someone telling me that their old grandma had appeared in their living room, asking for a cup of tea and a chit-chat.

What happens to us when we die, NOT a abrhamic religous idea, but anything besides that.....

Well, you are asking quite a lot, but I have this boiled down to a template, so... you are in luck. What happens when you die? In the most accurate sense, there are several stages that are encountered. The first stage, directly after physical death, will mirror perfectly ones existing beliefs about death in what certainly can be a highly dramatic episode.

After these festivities are over, the former physical self is "reunited" with their inner self. It's like a meeting of two long lost friends and the recognition IS instantaneous. Upon and hinging on their acceptance of their inner reality, which is a lot harder to deny under such circumstances, the nuts and bolts of the initial after death experience comes into play. It should be noted that failure to recognize the inner self generally does not bode well for the recently deceased. Most get it, right off, however some who followed particularly dogmatic thinking while "alive" do have trouble dealing with this and have to be coaxed and enticed outside of that thinking.

After this stage, one has many options available. They can sit back an take in the scenery for awhile, go off on an inner vacation from the physical system or set about planning their next physical adventure. The majority tend to do the later, as they have such strong bonds with the physical system. For this stage, the best analogy I can think of (it's still early and I am still waking up) is that of making a list for going to the shopping mall. There are many choices that are usually made before taking on a new physical incarnation. Using the idea of making a list for the shopping mall, in reincarnational terms, you make the list but necessarily have to leave the list on the desk in your study and then consciously head to the mall with the hope that you will remember all the things you set out to pick up along the way. It's not an exact science, as it were, and some are better at it than others.

The main point here is that there is nothing religious about this, though you could say that some things are done religiously, though I am joking. There are no gods or demons - just friends and others who care.

I have seen a video on afterlife and people walking into a tunnel, a huge light, seeing friends and family... is any of that true?

Well, truth is relative to understanding, so yes, these stories are, to an extent, true. I have had a dream with my father that occurred in a long dark hallway, just as you describe. We were quite delighted to see each other, but he never move from his place just inside the door that remained ajar and spoke to me from a position that seemed to be about 10-15 feet from where I was standing. The hallways itself seemed to be about 30 feet long, 8 feet wide and just over 6 feet high and had no decorations of any kind. And yes, it was very bright behind the door that was left ajar.

 

[savethedreams]

It should be noted that I do believe in "near-death experiences" and the possibility of talking to the dead, but with a proviso or two. I don't pretend that my addled view is the sole correct opinion on these matters, though it is true to say that I am not deeply impressed with the opinions of others on the very same topics. So what that means is that though I don't claim to be right, I am fairly certain that the accounts of others are often without serious merit, especially so, when those accounts are veiled in religious overtones. Curiously, I am quite fond of the Wiccan/Pagan notion of Summerland, though I do not subscribe to that concept either. In my view, it's not a bad analogy at all

.


If people incarnate, how can you talk to the dead????, if you believe in reincarnations.

Apparently. I have had, quite literally, countless out-of-body experiences. The odd part here is that moments into my very first experience I had the oddest sensation that this was what it was like to be dead. I have not looked at death the same since.

How do you look at death then? sense that 'experiences"

Well, you are asking quite a lot, but I have this boiled down to a template, so... you are in luck. What happens when you die? In the most accurate sense, there are several stages that are encountered. The first stage, directly after physical death, will mirror perfectly ones existing beliefs about death in what certainly can be a highly dramatic episode.

After these festivities are over, the former physical self is "reunited" with their inner self. It's like a meeting of two long lost friends and the recognition IS instantaneous. Upon and hinging on their acceptance of their inner reality, which is a lot harder to deny under such circumstances, the nuts and bolts of the initial after death experience comes into play. It should be noted that failure to recognize the inner self generally does not bode well for the recently deceased. Most get it, right off, however some who followed particularly dogmatic thinking while "alive" do have trouble dealing with this and have to be coaxed and enticed outside of that thinking.

After this stage, one has many options available. They can sit back an take in the scenery for awhile, go off on an inner vacation from the physical system or set about planning their next physical adventure. The majority tend to do the later, as they have such strong bonds with the physical system. For this stage, the best analogy I can think of (it's still early and I am still waking up) is that of making a list for going to the shopping mall. There are many choices that are usually made before taking on a new physical incarnation. Using the idea of making a list for the shopping mall, in reincarnational terms, you make the list but necessarily have to leave the list on the desk in your study and then consciously head to the mall with the hope that you will remember all the things you set out to pick up along the way. It's not an exact science, as it were, and some are better at it than others.

The main point here is that there is nothing religious about this, though you could say that some things are done religiously, though I am joking. There are no gods or demons - just friends and others who care.


Well, truth is relative to understanding, so yes, these stories are, to an extent, true. I have had a dream with my father that occurred in a long dark hallway, just as you describe. We were quite delighted to see each other, but he never move from his place just inside the door that remained ajar and spoke to me from a position that seemed to be about 10-15 feet from where I was standing. The hallways itself seemed to be about 30 feet long, 8 feet wide and just over 6 feet high and had no decorations of any kind. And yes, it was very bright behind the door that was left ajar.

[/QUOTE]



VERY interesting, so question, how do you know this, did the 'out of body experience' tell you this or

 

[YmirGF]

If people incarnate, how can you talk to the dead????, if you believe in reincarnations.

Well, they do have some free time, lol. It's not like they are punching a 9-5 clock.

How do you look at death then? sense that 'experiences"

As an alternative focus. OK, OK... a pretty radical alternate focus.

VERY interesting, so question, how do you know this, did the 'out of body experience' tell you this or

A religious person might take this "information" as revelation. I don't. It is more a case of realization and observation.

 

[thedope]

Life hasn't ended.

 

[Skwim]

Does anybody have any 'near-death experiences'?

Talk to someone who has died before?

What happens to us when we die, NOT a abrhamic religous idea, but anything besides that.....

I have seen a video on afterlife and people walking into a tunnel, a huge light, seeing friends and family... is any of that true?

Try these sites:

Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife

Actual Cases of Near-Death Experiences

IANDS - the most reliable source of information on NDEs

 

[Dezzie]

Well... maybe our bodies are just decomposed in the ground and there is no afterlife. Maybe we are just meant to be "reused". I got that idea from the movie "The Day the Earth Stood Still". It made me think that, maybe our bodies are just used to help "fertilize" the Earth and nothing more. Just a thought.

 

[cajunPita]

In dreams, for sure. From a psychological standpoint, I believe that such dreams can be very therapeutic to a grieving relative, if, of course, they are not freaked out by the experience. I suppose it depends how tenuous their grasp on reality is. Frankly, I'd be a bit skeptical of someone telling me that their old grandma had appeared in their living room, asking for a cup of tea and a chit-chat.

I feel like I said that, that's exactly how I feel. My grandmother comes and speaks to me at least twice a year in my dreams. It's a wonderful thing. When she brought me to her heaven, it was Biloxi, MS where she grew up. She was a young adult again and was so happy. Afterlife is for your soul and spirit mind, it will be beautiful.

 

[Reptillian]

Does anybody have any 'near-death experiences'?

Talk to someone who has died before?

What happens to us when we die, NOT a abrhamic religous idea, but anything besides that.....

I have seen a video on afterlife and people walking into a tunnel, a huge light, seeing friends and family... is any of that true?

I know a girl at work who claims to have had a near death experience when she was 8 years old. She was hit by a car and had a head injury. She says that she saw a bright light and a man in a brown robe who told her to go back because it wasn't her time. Personally, I take more of a wait and see attitude toward the afterlife. I have my opinions, but no certainty.

 

[Ben Masada]

Does anybody have any 'near-death experiences'?

Talk to someone who has died before?

What happens to us when we die, NOT a abrhamic religous idea, but anything besides that.....

I have seen a video on afterlife and people walking into a tunnel, a huge light, seeing friends and family... is any of that true?

Near death experience is no way close to afterlife experience. The so-called near death experience is an accident of a traumatic brain whose neurons have been disturbed as a result of traumatic accident. And with regards to afterlife experience, there is no such a thing. In the afterlife even the memory of anything in life is lost. Albeit reflexes can still be present in the body but as a result of muscular reactions due to blood still running within. Unless the patient is in a comma but definitely not dead.

 

[Penumbra]

It should be noted that I do believe in "near-death experiences" and the possibility of talking to the dead, but with a proviso or two. I don't pretend that my addled view is the sole correct opinion on these matters, though it is true to say that I am not deeply impressed with the opinions of others on the very same topics. So what that means is that though I don't claim to be right, I am fairly certain that the accounts of others are often without serious merit, especially so, when those accounts are veiled in religious overtones. Curiously, I am quite fond of the Wiccan/Pagan notion of Summerland, though I do not subscribe to that concept either. In my view, it's not a bad analogy at all.

As you likely know, I don't particularly find the statements in your post to be objectively correct. I find the evidence for a lack of an afterlife much stronger than the evidence for an afterlife.

If you don't mind, though, I'll ask you some questions regarding your belief, since you are a good person to discuss things with. Mainly I'll be probing it for clarity and consistency, and for curiosity.

Btw, have you read Neil Donald Walsch's books? Your views are much like his. I am fairly familiar with views like yours due to having New Age family members and because I read Walsch's books at their request, among other writings of other people such as some of the Transcendentalists.

Well, you are asking quite a lot, but I have this boiled down to a template, so... you are in luck. What happens when you die? In the most accurate sense, there are several stages that are encountered. The first stage, directly after physical death, will mirror perfectly ones existing beliefs about death in what certainly can be a highly dramatic episode.

Why is this the case? And this question applies not only to this stage, but to the other stages as well. Why would this complex afterlife exist? Why not just death?

You have said that you don't believe in gods, so in your view, why does this rather complex afterlife exist? You say there is nothing religious about it, but there is quite a lot of supernatural complexity involved.

After these festivities are over, the former physical self is "reunited" with their inner self. It's like a meeting of two long lost friends and the recognition IS instantaneous. Upon and hinging on their acceptance of their inner reality, which is a lot harder to deny under such circumstances, the nuts and bolts of the initial after death experience comes into play. It should be noted that failure to recognize the inner self generally does not bode well for the recently deceased. Most get it, right off, however some who followed particularly dogmatic thinking while "alive" do have trouble dealing with this and have to be coaxed and enticed outside of that thinking.

What do you mean that the former physical self is reunited with their inner self? You mean they become made of meat again? Or that they get some spiritual body that resembles their earthly body?

After this stage, one has many options available. They can sit back an take in the scenery for awhile, go off on an inner vacation from the physical system or set about planning their next physical adventure. The majority tend to do the later, as they have such strong bonds with the physical system. For this stage, the best analogy I can think of (it's still early and I am still waking up) is that of making a list for going to the shopping mall. There are many choices that are usually made before taking on a new physical incarnation. Using the idea of making a list for the shopping mall, in reincarnational terms, you make the list but necessarily have to leave the list on the desk in your study and then consciously head to the mall with the hope that you will remember all the things you set out to pick up along the way. It's not an exact science, as it were, and some are better at it than others.

In your view, if people select a lot of the attributes of their lives, even imperfectly, then why do so many people end up with such utterly crappy experiences?

Why did, statistically speaking, tens or hundreds of thousands of children die of starvation and disease this week? Why do people choose to be born in places where they will never receive a good education or become rather knowledgeable about the world? Why would people choose to have disgusting and painful medical problems, and especially ones that last an entire lifetime and are disabling? Why would people agree to die slowly in a nursing home alone with Alzheimer's? Why would people agree to experience a life difficult enough to lead them committing suicide? Why would people want to experience torture? Do people come back as animals, and if so, why would anyone agree to be a gazelle that gets ripped apart by a lion, or a bug stepped on under a foot, or an animal tortured in a factory farm?

Basically it's like a specific form of the problem of evil. If people choose their experiences, and it's an imperfect system, then I'd expect some variation and problems. And I expect some sadness and pain, because those things can be worth experiencing from time to time. But why would there be this much suffering in the world, in terms of quantity and magnitude?

And do you suppose that this cycle repeats forever, with people repeatedly living an earthly life, dying, resting, and living an earthly life again?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

At this point the afterlife is like a "nice dream" for me. I want to believe so badly that there is an afterlife, but my skepticism prevents me from fully crediting the idea. I am not denying such realms might exist, but as I haven't died yet, I can't say with certainty I'm going there, or even what these realms might be like. I'm sure there's "something" after death, but afterlife is something I'm extremely agnostic about and claim little knowledge of.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Does anybody have any 'near-death experiences'?

Talk to someone who has died before?

What happens to us when we die, NOT a abrhamic religous idea, but anything besides that.....

I have seen a video on afterlife and people walking into a tunnel, a huge light, seeing friends and family... is any of that true?

I personally think the visions and experiences are due to oxygen deprivation in the brain which triggers them. From a practical standpoint everyone was effectively dead prior to their birth, so my view is that after death the contents of the mind is completely wiped out from physical decomposition and the process of life again repeats under right conditions ad-infinitum spanning endless manifestations of life under the right conditions. How long it takes to recycle I dunno.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

See I can't just say near death experiences are caused by oxygen deprivation nowhere man. I'm not ready to make such a certain claim. Something interesting to consider is that the NDE's people describe sound shockingly like what the Tibetan Book of the Dead describes.

 

[YmirGF]

As you likely know, I don't particularly find the statements in your post to be objectively correct. I find the evidence for a lack of an afterlife much stronger than the evidence for an afterlife.

Oh, I do understand that Penumbra. The thing is I don't want people to take my word for it. I'd like them to try to discover their own answers, rather than relying on others to do their spiritual "heavy lifting".

*Puts on glasses* Ah, much better. So clear.

I try to make a point of saying that I may have all this <insert topic> wrong. To my thinking, it doesn't matter if I sincerely believe I am correct. It's just you will rarely hear me claim so. That said, I have VERY clear ideas about reality and my writing most certainly reflects that. I have been told that I have a fairly confident, ****-sure manner about me. I would suggest there is good reason for that. It is of little concern to me if people choose not to believe a single word I say, though it is my hope that perhaps, just perhaps, I might get them to think. If that's all I get in return for my efforts, then I am a happy human animal.

You could think of my presentation "style", if you will, as being a mildly intellectual version of, "Ha ha! Made ya look!"

If you don't mind, though, I'll ask you some questions regarding your belief, since you are a good person to discuss things with. Mainly I'll be probing it for clarity and consistency, and for curiosity.

I tremble with excitement at the prospect.

Btw, have you read Neil Donald Walsch's books?

Nope. Never heard of him. I don't read much outside of history books, physics and astrophysics. It's been three decades since I read anything to do with the topics I am given to discuss here on RF, aside from Islam, that is. Islam has been my main focus since Sept. 11, 2001 at about 8:30 am...

Your views are much like his. I am fairly familiar with views like yours due to having New Age family members and because I read Walsch's books at their request, among other writings of other people such as some of the Transcendentalists.

As I say, I don't read on these topics. Should I?

Why is this the case? And this question applies not only to this stage, but to the other stages as well. Why would this complex afterlife exist? Why not just death?

It is similar to the process of waking up. My guess is that the reason for the 1st stage is so that the "new arrivals" can deal with their just completed sojourn while the memories are still fresh. From what I understand, there are no hard and fast rules, but that such a period of reflection is encouraged to promote understanding. Another reason is that non-physical reality does take a bit of getting used to. Though I don't mean it literally, it is sort of like the individual needs "water wings" for a bit until they are accustom to their new surroundings.

Why not just death? Well, for starters, "you" are not WHAT you think you are. That takes a bit of getting used to. Suffice to say that you are a bit more than your sweet physical self. That self is a manifestation of the inner self "fleshed out" into a three dimensional environment. Since the inner self or entity cannot "fit" into a single body, the result is necessarily and approximation and a highly creative "what if" experiment.

You have said that you don't believe in gods,

I am a bit of a rascal. You see, I haven't said that I do not believe in "god" categorically, but rather, that I have largely gone past that idea. I am not saying that there isn't something I detect. There is. I am just loath to describe it in terms that people will automatically translate into their own conventional terms. I am a fairly arrogant little fellow, but I am not arrogant enough to claim what I perceive is the bona fide god, that somehow, most others have missed or not arrived at. That would be more than a bit unseemly.

so in your view, why does this rather complex afterlife exist? You say there is nothing religious about it, but there is quite a lot of supernatural complexity involved.

I understand the so-called "supernatural" quality to all this, and I sincerely wish that that were not the case. I truly wish it were otherwise, but alas, it ain't. That said, I see it as quite natural and assert it is only supernatural from our current perspective. A bit of a waffle answer, I know, but there it is.

As to why it is so complex, Hmmm, that is a toughie. I'd imagine that it is because the process of physical life is, in itself, a complex system populated by complex beings. If only we were simple two dimensional beings, things would be so much simpler. Is complexity a problem?

What do you mean that the former physical self is reunited with their inner self?

Think of it as the return of the prodigal son or daughter. Strip away the religious connotations and it is a pretty good analogy. In this sense, the offspring or aspect, returns to its creator. The difference though is that it now has its own persona and well... that adds a delicious wrinkle to the mix.

You mean they become made of meat again?

What?

Or that they get some spiritual body that resembles their earthly body?

Oh, right. I keep forgetting. After one is dead, they do not have a body. In a very real sense, they can portray whatever they wish, though most new arrivals have a tendency to reflect their just finished physical form, although in a somewhat idealized sense, full of vim and vigor. The individual is "energy" and can assume any form it wants to. There are no limitations. It's not a case of "getting" anything, it is more a case of manifesting whatever image is desired or no image at all. It's one of those things that one gets used to handling.

In your view, if people select a lot of the attributes of their lives, even imperfectly, then why do so many people end up with such utterly crappy experiences?

I don't pretend to have the answers to this but my abiding belief is that they want to learn something specific, in an indelible way and so manufacture the essential ingredients to bring that life experience to fruition.

Why did, statistically speaking, tens or hundreds of thousands of children die of starvation and disease this week? Why do people choose to be born in places where they will never receive a good education or become rather knowledgeable about the world? Why would people choose to have disgusting and painful medical problems, and especially ones that last an entire lifetime and are disabling? Why would people agree to die slowly in a nursing home alone with Alzheimer's? Why would people agree to experience a life difficult enough to lead them committing suicide? Why would people want to experience torture?

I don't pretend to know, Penumbra. Overall though, I would say that they do not go into the situations blind. They know full well what incarnating into such areas may bring. That is sort of the point of doing so. Perhaps they want to understand, in a way they will never, ever forget the meaning behind despair. The meaning behind suffering. We don't all come to this small planet to become rock stars. There are as many reasons for choosing these circumstances as there are beings to choose them. No life is ever truly a waste however, though some lives can fail to live up to expectations. It's part planning and part a roll of the dice due to the unpredictable nature of probabilities. These people also serve to make the rest of us understand that we are here to help each other and we learn that through trial and error. Put simply, there are no rules.

Do people come back as animals

Not normally, no, though it is theoretically possible.

and if so, why would anyone agree to be a gazelle that gets ripped apart by a lion, or a bug stepped on under a foot, or an animal tortured in a factory farm?

I'm afraid you would have to ask the parties involved why they choose accordingly. You have to admit, it would be pretty cool being a beautiful gazelle. Like with "my" own wee dear, "Precious". She is a runt and I have observed any larger deer around her will always force her to leave any food that she is eating. It is my view, that because I show affection for this little dear (now 2-1/2 years old) that she comes to me. She already knows that if I am feeding her, the other deer leave her alone. They won't come closer than 3 or 4 feet away, which allows her to eat to her hearts content. It could be my feeble side showing, but I'd like to think that her friendship (she comes around at least once a day for a fresh apple, pear or potato) is my reward for filling her little belly. What is a neat side effect is that now other deer come with her. Yesterday I had 5 large bucks looking anxiously while she wolfed down an apple. I tossed them bits too, but she got one to herself. I guess what I am saying is that there is always a balance and trade-off.

(continued)

 

[YmirGF]

Basically it's like a specific form of the problem of evil. If people choose their experiences, and it's an imperfect system, then I'd expect some variation and problems. And I expect some sadness and pain, because those things can be worth experiencing from time to time. But why would there be this much suffering in the world, in terms of quantity and magnitude?

Much of our suffering is the direct result of our own actions though, Penumbra. How much suffering was involved in the creation of your iPod or iPad? How much suffering was involved in the banana you had earlier?

And do you suppose that this cycle repeats forever, with people repeatedly living an earthly life, dying, resting, and living an earthly life again?

Pretty much. My delusion is that we go through the process until we understand how we create our experience. At that point new options arise.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

I think we just exist out of anthropic necessity because it is clearly not possible to be aware of any of the millions of other non-living states of not existing. Maybe we just switch to another brain and with all the memories of this life being extinguished with the death of current our brain it would be like just another first life experience. In that case you would be just as oblivious to what happens to you after you die as this one. So effectively it would be indistinguishable from a "you only live once" experience. But I do totally reject any Christian concept of some justice system where we may have to defend ourselves before a heavenly panel for our "sin" in this life. Nor do I believe in the Buddhist concept of Karma. I certainly see no reason to believe we have any memories of this live preserved in a so called “afterlife”

 

[Thief]

Does anybody have any 'near-death experiences'?

Talk to someone who has died before?

What happens to us when we die, NOT a abrhamic religous idea, but anything besides that.....

I have seen a video on afterlife and people walking into a tunnel, a huge light, seeing friends and family... is any of that true?

You don't need a near death experience for this one.

The light at the end of the tunnel....is an optical effect.
Your peripheral vision shuts down first....lack of blood to the eye.
Going into the light....is something else.

As you are breathing you cannot get out of your body.
When you surrender you last breath....

There will be only one desire waiting for you.
You will desire to stand up.
You will see that 'tunnel'.
Go for it.

If not...your body goes into the box and the box into the ground.

Eternal darkness is physically real.

If you succeed in standing up...the angels will be waiting for you.

Therefore....fair warning.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

The angels will be waiting for you.

 

[Penumbra]

Oh, I do understand that Penumbra. The thing is I don't want people to take my word for it. I'd like them to try to discover their own answers, rather than relying on others to do their spiritual "heavy lifting".

*Puts on glasses* Ah, much better. So clear.

I appreciate the response.

I try to make a point of saying that I may have all this <insert topic> wrong. To my thinking, it doesn't matter if I sincerely believe I am correct. It's just you will rarely hear me claim so. That said, I have VERY clear ideas about reality and my writing most certainly reflects that. I have been told that I have a fairly confident, ****-sure manner about me. I would suggest there is good reason for that. It is of little concern to me if people choose not to believe a single word I say, though it is my hope that perhaps, just perhaps, I might get them to think. If that's all I get in return for my efforts, then I am a happy human animal.

You could think of my presentation "style", if you will, as being a mildly intellectual version of, "Ha ha! Made ya look!"

I tremble with excitement at the prospect.

Nope. Never heard of him. I don't read much outside of history books, physics and astrophysics. It's been three decades since I read anything to do with the topics I am given to discuss here on RF, aside from Islam, that is. Islam has been my main focus since Sept. 11, 2001 at about 8:30 am...

As I say, I don't read on these topics. Should I?

Should you?

Well my observation of your posts (these and others) is that your beliefs are very much aligned with Walsch's, to the point where it's almost exact. In fact, you'd probably be surprised at how much I understand your beliefs, because I'm already highly familiar with them. I'm sure there must be some differences, but I haven't detected any yet. I thought I detected one difference, but your recent post may have removed that difference.

As for Transcendentalists, their writings, especially those of Emerson, were pretty influential on this sort of spirituality. They're significantly different, but they kind of sparked this sort of belief system (which itself drew elements from eastern religions).

It is similar to the process of waking up. My guess is that the reason for the 1st stage is so that the "new arrivals" can deal with their just completed sojourn while the memories are still fresh. From what I understand, there are no hard and fast rules, but that such a period of reflection is encouraged to promote understanding. Another reason is that non-physical reality does take a bit of getting used to. Though I don't mean it literally, it is sort of like the individual needs "water wings" for a bit until they are accustom to their new surroundings.

Why not just death? Well, for starters, "you" are not WHAT you think you are. That takes a bit of getting used to. Suffice to say that you are a bit more than your sweet physical self. That self is a manifestation of the inner self "fleshed out" into a three dimensional environment. Since the inner self or entity cannot "fit" into a single body, the result is necessarily and approximation and a highly creative "what if" experiment.

I am a bit of a rascal. You see, I haven't said that I do not believe in "god" categorically, but rather, that I have largely gone past that idea. I am not saying that there isn't something I detect. There is. I am just loath to describe it in terms that people will automatically translate into their own conventional terms. I am a fairly arrogant little fellow, but I am not arrogant enough to claim what I perceive is the bona fide god, that somehow, most others have missed or not arrived at. That would be more than a bit unseemly.

I understand the so-called "supernatural" quality to all this, and I sincerely wish that that were not the case. I truly wish it were otherwise, but alas, it ain't. That said, I see it as quite natural and assert it is only supernatural from our current perspective. A bit of a waffle answer, I know, but there it is.

As to why it is so complex, Hmmm, that is a toughie. I'd imagine that it is because the process of physical life is, in itself, a complex system populated by complex beings. If only we were simple two dimensional beings, things would be so much simpler. Is complexity a problem?

Well, if you believe in something akin to a god, then it somewhat mitigates the question of complexity.

What do you make of the fact that science shows that our consciousness, thought, memories, and personality are dependent on the brain? If someone has a stroke and damages part of the brain, their personality can change. A knock to the head can erase memories. Consciousness can be temporarily or permanently destroyed even when the physical body is kept alive (coma, brain dead, etc.). In fact, due to this, the moment of true "death" isn't really even certain, since it's a failure of a very complex system through several gray phases. A person's ability to think is dependent on certain parts of the brain. They're even fairly knowledgeable about which parts of the brain play a role in different tasks.

If we are not our physical body, then why would this be the case? And "what" is it that, upon death, continues living, if it's been shown that consciousness, thought, memories, and personality are all emergent properties of the physical brain? Do you have scientific knowledge or evidence that disagrees with this view?

Think of it as the return of the prodigal son or daughter. Strip away the religious connotations and it is a pretty good analogy. In this sense, the offspring or aspect, returns to its creator. The difference though is that it now has its own persona and well... that adds a delicious wrinkle to the mix.

What?

You said the former physical self is reunited with the inner self, so I was attempting to clarify what you meant. I wasn't sure if you meant our fleshy body is involved or not.

Oh, right. I keep forgetting. After one is dead, they do not have a body. In a very real sense, they can portray whatever they wish, though most new arrivals have a tendency to reflect their just finished physical form, although in a somewhat idealized sense, full of vim and vigor. The individual is "energy" and can assume any form it wants to. There are no limitations. It's not a case of "getting" anything, it is more a case of manifesting whatever image is desired or no image at all. It's one of those things that one gets used to handling.

So if people experience this, why would they be attached to physical existence and want to go back?

I don't pretend to have the answers to this but my abiding belief is that they want to learn something specific, in an indelible way and so manufacture the essential ingredients to bring that life experience to fruition.

I don't pretend to know, Penumbra. Overall though, I would say that they do not go into the situations blind. They know full well what incarnating into such areas may bring. That is sort of the point of doing so. Perhaps they want to understand, in a way they will never, ever forget the meaning behind despair. The meaning behind suffering. We don't all come to this small planet to become rock stars. There are as many reasons for choosing these circumstances as there are beings to choose them. No life is ever truly a waste however, though some lives can fail to live up to expectations. It's part planning and part a roll of the dice due to the unpredictable nature of probabilities. These people also serve to make the rest of us understand that we are here to help each other and we learn that through trial and error. Put simply, there are no rules.

I understand that experiencing a certain degree of suffering or despair would be worthwhile for development, but the magnitude that people go through doesn't make sense. Can one truly say that they want what they are experiencing?

I mean, there are some forms of agony on this planet that are just too terrible to even imagine. Why would anyone go through it, and what lessons could it teach that were not already extremely obvious? And even if someone went through it, there would be no way they would do it again.

For instance, here's a case where a French woman developed a rare form of cancer that involved a tumor on her face. Over eight years, it got worse and worse, until it deformed her face so badly that she lost the senses of sight, smell, and taste. Worse yet, the pressure caused her left eyeball to pop out, and it remains bloody and hanging out all of the time, and she is always in severe pain. She requested euthanasia but was denied, and eventually took matters into her own hands.
Source, with picture, from a news agency:
French Woman Who Sought Euthanasia Dies - Health News | Current Health News | Medical News - FOXNews.com

Why on earth would anyone want to go through that? That's not typical "learn a good lesson" sort of suffering.

 

[Penumbra]

Much of our suffering is the direct result of our own actions though, Penumbra. How much suffering was involved in the creation of your iPod or iPad? How much suffering was involved in the banana you had earlier?

I don't own an iPod or any Apple product. I was given an iPod Shuffle as a present once years ago but I don't use it. I'm not sure how much suffering goes into bananas. There's probably a lot of very lowly paid guys that have to harvest and prepare them in the originating countries, and animals might die depending on the techniques used.

It's true that humans cause a lot of suffering, but I don't think they cause most of it. There was plenty of suffering on this planet before humans ever existed. For billions of years, predators ate prey, creatures died from various causes, and there were even mass-extinction events.

And even with humans around, things like hurricanes, genetic defects, and accidental injuries cause a lot of suffering. Things like pollution, war, torture, murder, and oppression are certainly partially the fault of humans. But even then, how much can be avoided? For instance, let's say suffering went into the last banana I ate. What can I do about it? There's only so many things I can exclude from my diet. I already exclude meat and most dairy products.

Pretty much.

Well, repeating physical existence for eternity doesn't sound very fun.

My delusion is that we go through the process until we understand how we create our experience. At that point new options arise.

What options?