What Happens When You Die?

[atanu]

Perhaps,

This unity with God is something I don't think is so desirable. Not that it is bad but this existence, as illusionary as it is has drama, struggle, achievement, sacrifice.

All the drama etc. remains .. as per wish. The sense of victimhood, helplessness, depression, fear of death, fear of a second etc. etc. go.

If this unity is/was so desirable, so blissful, then why did we leave?

Frankly speaking, I do not remember leaving. I found myself in this help-less painful state and enquired "Who is this guy who is so troubled?" And I found no one.

 

[Hawkins]

I've seen scripture that the dead do 'sleep'.

Maybe they do.
But I have also read that God does not sleep.
I want to be more like that.

That 'sleep' is not a default. The default is to remain awaken.

If one ever entered that 'sleep' and came back, he should finally know who God is. Because a 'sleep' is the last step of a death process. Another process, the resurrection, is required to bring one back. Actually, from the moment when you see your spirit gone, what left is your soul as the 'self'. There could still be quite a while before you were put to such a 'sleep' by an external force.

I actually went that far to tell, believe it or not.

 

[godnotgod]

Frankly speaking, I do not remember leaving. I found myself in this help-less painful state and enquired "Who is this guy who is so troubled?" And I found no one.

By the same token, who is it that sleeps? Who is it that awakens?

Perhaps there is only sleeping and awakening, without a sleeper or one who is awakened. In this respect, we are only pure consciousness, without an agent of consciousness.

"Once upon a time, I, Chuang Chou, dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, a veritable butterfly, enjoying itself to the full of its bent, and not knowing it was Chuang Chou. Suddenly I awoke, and came to myself, the veritable Chuang Chou. Now I do not know whether it was then I dreamt I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly dreaming I am a man. Between me and the butterfly there must be a difference. This is an instance of transformation.


How do I know that enjoying life is not a delusion? How do I know that in hating death we are not like people who got lost in early childhood and do not know the way home? During our dreams we do not know we are dreaming. We may even dream of interpreting a dream. Only on waking do we know it was a dream. Only after the great awakening will we realize that this is the great dream. And yet fools think they are awake, presuming to know that they are rulers or herdsmen. How dense! You and Confucius are both dreaming, and I who say you are a dream am also a dream. Such is my tale. It will probably be called preposterous, but after ten thousand generations there may be a great sage who will be able to explain it, a trivial interval equivalent to the passage from morning to night."

Chuang Tzu, Taoist Sage

 

[Nakosis]

All the drama etc. remains .. as per wish. The sense of victimhood, helplessness, depression, fear of death, fear of a second etc. etc. go.

I like to help people. If there is no one with issues, who can I help?

I suppose the desire to be helpful is selfish. The self helping the self so the self can feel that I can feel I am doing something important. I believe it is an illusion but I don't mind.

Frankly speaking, I do not remember leaving. I found myself in this help-less painful state and enquired "Who is this guy who is so troubled?" And I found no one.

And... Was that comforting? To find no one would be, I think, a little disturbing.

 

[godnotgod]

And... Was that comforting? To find no one would be, I think, a little disturbing.

Ha ha ha....'a little disturbing?'...to whom, if there is no one there to be so disturbed!

No. There is, then, only the disturbance itself.

'Troubled voyage,
in calm weather'

 

[Nakosis]

Ha ha ha....'a little disturbing?'...to whom, if there is no one there to be so disturbed!

No. There is, then, only the disturbance itself.

'Troubled voyage,
in calm weather'

Existence without awareness of the self I believe is a possible state of being. Even existence without awareness of existence. At that point there really is no I. A kind of nothing, not really, but no way to differentiate it from nothing.

I believe I remember this, though who knows how reliable a memory is, an existence when "I" had no meaning. It started with a change of focus, when the whole discovered it could perceive it's awareness as a part of the whole. There was still no sense of self but there was wonderment at the ability to create a difference that was not there before even if only a difference of perception. The wonderment cause the desire to create a new difference. This happened again and again. The desire to create something different became overwhelming. Then came a time of insanity and creation. There was awareness of creation but none of a creator.

The rest I don't know. I suspect curiosity caused the whole to invest it's point of perception into what was created so it would be able to know/find the creator but couldn't find anyone there.

 

[Thief]

I did. I asked at every single one of the gravestones: "Who's in there? None answered, though I did hear some muffled giggling, which reminds me of a joke:

A man, visiting one of his relative's cemetery plot, is getting ready to leave when he takes notice of a Chinese gentleman leaving food at one of the gravesites. So he shouts over to him: 'Do you really think your relatives are going to come up and eat that food?', to which the Chinese man retorted: "Do you think yours are going to come up and smell those flowers?'

So, no, Thief: there's no one in any of those gravesites. Just 'dem bones and some dust. So my original question: 'who is it that lives; who is it that dies?'

Your question was nonsense...my response was to the point.

For the sake of those having passed....I say...yeah.
Eternal darkness is a possibility.
You are contained in your body....and you can't get out.
You are not your own handiwork.
You did not put 'you' in that parcel of flesh.

For the sake of those having passed away....I hope they were set free.

Now my question to YOU.....WHO GIGGLED????????
(that wouldn't be the devil at your back?....would it?)

 

[godnotgod]

You are contained in your body....and you can't get out.

Really! Please explain how 'you', which is non-material, is 'contained' by the material body?

Now my question to YOU.....WHO GIGGLED????????
(that wouldn't be the devil at your back?....would it?)

Well, no. She was actually standing right in front of me when that happened. All I said to her was that I was pleased to meet her, and then I complimented her on the so very excellent and thoroughly professional quality of her illusion, and she just blushed and giggled. So I handed her a bunch of red roses, and she sheepishly slinked away. She's such a softie, you know. You know?

 

[atanu]

Frankly speaking, I do not remember leaving. I found myself in this help-less painful state and enquired "Who is this guy who is so troubled?" And I found no one.

And... Was that comforting? To find no one would be, I think, a little disturbing.

Ha Ha. But, I will tell you.

Howsoever much a man may be troubled in dream (suppose being chased by Thief with a big knife) or during waking (being bombarded with questions by GnG), one is not bothered at all in deep sleep.

What happens in the two dualistic states of dreaming and waking?

 

[Thief]

Ha Ha. But, I will tell you.

Howsoever much a man may be troubled in dream (suppose being chased by Thief with a big knife) or during waking (being bombarded with questions by GnG), one is not bothered at all in deep sleep.

What happens in the two dualistic states of dreaming and waking?

I can't....and don't .....advocate the doing so....it's against the rules....
but some chemistry can bring your dreams into your wakeful state of mind.

It would not be for the trouble minded...or the double minded.

But then again....
I strongly suspect that is precisely what happens when we die....AND
we get to share such things with total strangers!!!!!

 

[atanu]

u

I can't....and don't .....advocate the doing so....it's against the rules....
but some chemistry can bring your dreams into your wakeful state of mind.

!!!

Ha ha. I have prayers to avert that.

 

[Thief]

u

Ha ha. I have prayers to avert that.

Actually....as soon as we are dead....we stand from the dust.
Heaven will come to have a look.

They will be able to see what we are in mind and heart.

If they are not willing to share what they have in spirit....
they will leave us wherever we fell.

That might not be a good thing.

 

[atanu]

Actually....as soon as we are dead....we stand from the dust.
Heaven will come to have a look.

They will be able to see what we are in mind and heart.
.

I fully agree. Only that heaven is all pervading and also constitute our own heart. :yes:

 

[Nakosis]

I fully agree. Only that heaven is all pervading and also constitute our own heart. :yes:

:no: Heaven is an exclusive club.... :no:

Where's the fun in being a member of a club if it is not exclusive. Only the right sort of people can be let in...

Just kidding of course, but I wonder the motivation behind such thinking. The need, I suppose, to validate one's own beliefs by insisting everyone else accept them or else those that dare question such beliefs can go to hell, be left in the dust, face oblivion.

Perhaps the "conviction of Truth" give people the perception of authority in this life they would not otherwise have.

 

[Thief]

:no: Heaven is an exclusive club.... :no:

Where's the fun in being a member of a club if it is not exclusive. Only the right sort of people can be let in...

Just kidding of course, but I wonder the motivation behind such thinking. The need, I suppose, to validate one's own beliefs by insisting everyone else accept them or else those that dare question such beliefs can go to hell, be left in the dust, face oblivion.

Perhaps the "conviction of Truth" give people the perception of authority in this life they would not otherwise have.

No really......

Picture Jesus, Judas, and Hitler sharing bread and a sauce bowl.....
looking each other in the eye.....
and the disciples left two swords on the table....

 

[godnotgod]

:no: Heaven is an exclusive club.... :no:

Where's the fun in being a member of a club if it is not exclusive. Only the right sort of people can be let in...

Just kidding of course, but I wonder the motivation behind such thinking. The need, I suppose, to validate one's own beliefs by insisting everyone else accept them or else those that dare question such beliefs can go to hell, be left in the dust, face oblivion.

Perhaps the "conviction of Truth" give people the perception of authority in this life they would not otherwise have.

It's all part of the game of Black vs. White, where White MUST win.

Thus for thousands of years human history has been a magnificently futile conflict, a wonderfully staged panorama of triumphs and tragedies based on the resolute taboo against admitting that black goes with white. Nothing, perhaps, ever got nowhere with so much fascinating ado. As when Tweedledum and Tweedledee agreed to have a battle, the essential trick of the Game of Black-and-White is a most tacit conspiracy for the partners to conceal their unity, and to look as different as possible. It is like a stage fight so well acted that the audience is ready to believe it a real fight. Hidden behind their explicit differences is the implicit unity of what Vedanta calls the Self, the One-without-a-second, the what there is and the all that there is which conceals itself in the form of you.

http://www.seekeraftertruth.com/alan-watts-the-game-of-black-and-white/

 

[Muffled]

The only "rival" God has is the perversity of some humans, who are clearly in no way any real "threat" to Him!

You overlook the fact that we're not contradicting that because satan IS a person: specifically, any person who prefers his own lower (animal) nature to God.

So the point remains that God has no real rival or equal, as many scriptures make clear.

And it's also true that religions like the Baha'i Faith have more consistently stressed the need for and promoted peace than much of Christianity has done historically. So please don't limit yourself to only-Christianity as a sole hope for peace.

I can also assure you that we love God fully as much as you do!

Regards,

Bruce

I believe this statement contradicts what God say in scripture.

I believe this is in error since the person of Satan is not embodied in any person yet. All that he can do is influence by lies. I do believe that there is a long history of people having believed those lies which gives the impression that man is innately sinful but I don't believe that to be the case.

I believe a rival does not necessitate an equal. Give your references but I suspect that there is a misinterprettion of them so expect a refutal.

It depends on what one means by peace. Jesus has His own and Christians already have it. If you mean a lack of conflict, Jesus promised that there would be conflict and Ba'hais might try to avoid it but will not be able.

I have no doubt that Ba'hais love God but I believe not as much as Christians because God died for us showing us His greatest love for us engendering a great love in return.

 

[Muffled]

Well, you're just going round and round in circles, now, aren't you?

You're just chasing your own tail.

I believe the circle is unbroken. I also believe that circles are just as valid as lines.

I don't believe that I am but perhaps one might explain why one thinks so.

 

[Muffled]

What they got right were the words of a megalomaniacal genocidal mass murderer! Read Deut. 12-20. This contains the seeds of that racist policy otherwise known as Manifest Destiny, responsible for the genocide of tens of thousands of American Indians and others. This genocidal maniac is none other than man himself, projecting his own image onto an external authority figure he calls 'God'.

I believe this is an exposition of not getting things right.

 

[Nakosis]

It's all part of the game of Black vs. White, where White MUST win.

Thus for thousands of years human history has been a magnificently futile conflict, a wonderfully staged panorama of triumphs and tragedies based on the resolute taboo against admitting that black goes with white. Nothing, perhaps, ever got nowhere with so much fascinating ado. As when Tweedledum and Tweedledee agreed to have a battle, the essential trick of the Game of Black-and-White is a most tacit conspiracy for the partners to conceal their unity, and to look as different as possible. It is like a stage fight so well acted that the audience is ready to believe it a real fight. Hidden behind their explicit differences is the implicit unity of what Vedanta calls the Self, the One-without-a-second, the what there is and the all that there is which conceals itself in the form of you.

http://www.seekeraftertruth.com/alan-watts-the-game-of-black-and-white/

Except we(actors in this staged drama) were/are purposefully confused into thinking our actions are justified by God. Yes, we kill commit genocide and kill off the native population of the Americas under the banner of white...

My enemy is myself, maybe. So do I sit back and accept this "injustice" because I understand it is all staged?

We were betrayed, the serpent does Gods work. It's ok that at some level, we did it, we accepted it, we allowed it. The evil genocidal God of the Christians, on some level that is us, according to our thinking.

The price of drama is no price and is only apparently costly. Neat trick. Whatever the reality, I'm left to deal with whatever seem apparently real to me in the manner I feel is best.

I don't see myself as black or white. However I do go about doing what seems right for me to do. The judgement of my actions, being black or white, I guess I'll leave that for other apparent egos to decide.