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What Happens When You Die?

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member

I love Zen master Philip Kapleau's metaphor-image stamped on his trilogy, 'The Three Pillars of Zen'. It is a salmon leaping upstream, totally focused on one goal, to return home, and then to die.

Why? Why the goal to return home?

The goal is to end suffering? But, I don't experience life as suffering.

Pain is pain, loss is loss. They don't bother me. I accept them as part of the experience of life and death.

I've no desire for the experience of Sunyata, at least not enough to desire to over-come my fear. I don't know if there should be something wrong with that.

I prefer the challenge of "suffering". I prefer the struggle of swimming up-stream. In reaching the destination there is no more struggle.

None of this is wise or insightful or beneficial to anyone. However it is why I don't pursue Buddhism or Hinduism further. This discussion helped me to realize this at least.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
If you agree Spirit as the source of all things, then there really is no second that can exist separately. Although, it is perfectly plausible for the Spirit to play a role as Thief. That is good.

Where I disagree with you is that this is not the ultimate, since Jesus says "Be ye perfect as Father in Heaven is perfect."

OTOH, I disagree with GnG because he, while denying a self, is with all his might asserting existence of his own personal self only.

I don't feel omnipotent....do you?

The ability to create at will is not mine.

This universe is not my handiwork.
I strongly suspect Something Greater than myself.

If I were one with the Creator, I would be a Power on earth in the flesh.

'Be thou perfect'....was likely dealt unto those who already thought of themselves as better.
When dealt...the aim was to humble the immediate crowd.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
I don't feel omnipotent....do you?

The ability to create at will is not mine.

This universe is not my handiwork.
I strongly suspect Something Greater than myself.

If I were one with the Creator, I would be a Power on earth in the flesh.

'Be thou perfect'....was likely dealt unto those who already thought of themselves as better.
When dealt...the aim was to humble the immediate crowd.

That is your ninjaic interpretation.

It is possible to be perfect as the Father in Heaven is.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Can you know Sunya unless your true nature itself is Sunya? (ie; 'Tat tvam asi')

It is because the Seer is empty that Sunya can be known. (ie; 'no obstructions').

Because the NATURE of the Unborn is prajna that the unborn can be known.

Prajna is pre jnana -- the precursor to manifest knowledge. In Hindu scripture the nature of Atma is said to be dense prajna.

The above is correct from your own citation shown below.

There is a passage in the 'Mahaparinirana Sutra' in which Buddha nature is defined as the ultimate emptiness and the Middle Way. It reads:
Good son, Buddha nature is the ultimate emptiness ,which is 'prajna' itself.


This only I have said again and again. 'Prajnanam brahman'.​
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
My understanding

The reality, Existence-Conscsiouness, is non dual. It is immortal. The notion "I am separate" is the illusion.

The "I Am" is the universal ego that emerges from the Universal and then appears as many "I am this".

The way out of this illusionary trap is possible by re-tracing through the path of "I am". The same is called "AUM" and OM in Hinduism.

The way back to the non dual Self is through meditating on the source of "I" in oneself. One can never find a separate self.

6. He who sees "I am separate," "you are seperate," "He is seperate" and so on, acts one way to himself and another way to others. He cannot help doing so. The thought "I am seperate, others are separate" is the seed from which grows the tree of differing actions in relation to different persons. How can there be any lapse from righteousness for a person who knows the Unity of himself with others? As long as the germ of differentiation is there, the tree of differing actions will flourish, even unawares.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
There can be no notion of death when there is absolutely no notion of "I am separate and all this outside of my body is separate".
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Why? Why the goal to return home?

The goal is to end suffering? But, I don't experience life as suffering.

Pain is pain, loss is loss. They don't bother me. I accept them as part of the experience of life and death.

I've no desire for the experience of Sunyata, at least not enough to desire to over-come my fear. I don't know if there should be something wrong with that.

I prefer the challenge of "suffering". I prefer the struggle of swimming up-stream. In reaching the destination there is no more struggle.

None of this is wise or insightful or beneficial to anyone. However it is why I don't pursue Buddhism or Hinduism further. This discussion helped me to realize this at least.

Perhaps not for you, but for many, many people, the problem is ignorance of the cause of suffering. So they suffer without knowing how to resolve it so they can be happy. They don't know the way out of the trap. Happiness is home. Enlightenment is the cure for ignorance. The struggle to overcome ignorance and suffering is, for most seekers, a daunting endeavor. One must give every last ounce of oneself, like the heroic little salmon, to realize its fruits. You can live life in ignorance or in the enlightened state. That is a choice. But the Buddha tells us that suffering is unnecessary. We CAN take the short way home.

Never mind Buddhism or Hinduism. Maybe neither is your path. However, Sunyata is the perfection of wisdom. Why would you not wish to experience that, not that actively seeking it will get you the experience. On the contrary, the more you push, the further away you will become. From what you are telling me, however, it seems it would be fruitful for you, not to pursue Sunyata, but to find out why you fear it.

There is relative suffering, and there is relative joy, which most of mankind experiences as part of ordinary life and death, as you pointed out. Both are temporal. It is this relative suffering of everyday life I believe you are referring to. But transcendent of both of these is Absolute Joy, which has no relative opposite. It is this Absolute Joy that the salmon metaphor is about.

I wonder if you can understand the following:


'When I began my study of Zen, mountains were just mountains, and trees were just trees.

During my study, mountains were no longer mountains, and trees no longer trees.

When I realized my Enlightenment, mountains were once again mountains, and trees once again trees'


The message here is very subtle and seems simplistic, but actually is very profound. It involves a complete transformation of the mind, in which the Ordinary and the Miraculous become as One.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
I disagree with GnG because he, while denying a self, is with all his might asserting existence of his own personal self only.

Excuse me? Where do you see that? That is quite an insane statement that I don't see has any basis whatsoever.

What I have stated over and over again is that there is no experiencer of the experience, and that includes myself.
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
The ability to create at will is not mine.

This universe is not my handiwork.

You continue to repeat that the universe is handiwork. This tells me a lot about your world view. IOW, you see the Creator as an artisan, and the world as His artifact, in much the same way that a potter is the artisan, and the pot the artifact. In this view, called The Artifact View of the Universe, man is also seen as an artifact, a created 'thing' that has no power of his own until the Creator breathes life into it. Man is the clay and the pot that is the vessel is possible only via the Creator. So, in this view, God exists and operates outside of this artifact which is the universe. It is for this reason that those who subscribe to this view see the universe as not having any life within it, and have acted accordingly in regards to nature by bulldozing it around as if it were just so much building material that needs 'improvement'. Today, the reality of environmental destruction tells us otherwise, which includes the control and systematic destruction of the human spirit. Both Religion and Science are guilty of this onslaught.

God as Artisan/Architect of the world is reflected in artwork, such as
:

bill-blake-1.jpg
250px-God_with_Compass.jpg


...and man as clay, in scripture:


images
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Because the NATURE of the Unborn is prajna that the unborn can be known.

Prajna is pre jnana -- the precursor to manifest knowledge. In Hindu scripture the nature of Atma is said to be dense prajna.

The above is correct from your own citation shown below.



This only I have said again and again. 'Prajnanam brahman'.

prajna* is empty.


The Heart Sutra speaks about the true emptiness of prajna. The true emptiness. Therefore it is said: "True emptiness does not obstruct wonderful existence, and wonderful existence does not obstruct true emptiness. True emptiness is wonderful existence; wonderful existence is true emptiness."

THE PRAJNA PARAMITA HEART SUTRA

*For those who have not heard of prajna:

[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, san-serif]
PRAJNA: The sixth of the Six Paramitas (perfections) in the Buddhist concept of the Bodhisattva path. It is referred to as “wisdom” or “understanding” that is capable of extinguishing afflictions and bringing about Enlightenment. Simply stated, it is the field of pure consciousness beyond concepts, beliefs and imaginations.
[/FONT]
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Excuse me? Where do you see that? That is quite an insane statement that I don't see has any basis whatsoever.

What I have stated over and over again is that there is no experiencer of the experience, and that includes myself.

May be it is me only or may be not.

When someone asserts anatta again and again, using the very self, the self gets asserted again and again.

Anatta can be asserted again and again only with an atma.
 
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atanu

Member
Premium Member
prajna* is empty.

?? Is wisdom (prajnana) then empty?

Sunyata is an experience of the Skandhas being anatta. Sunyata is an experience that Skandhas are not the Self.

OTOH, Prajna is dense jnana (knowledge) just as space is dense sound.

The word is pra-jnana.

pra is PRE
jnana is Knowledge.

Prajnana is variously described as Wisdom or as the Precursor of Jnana.

Prajnana is also described as Sarvesvara -- the All Lord -- that we enter into in deep sleep. It holds in its bosom the seeds of manifestation that occur in dream and in waking. It controls our dream and waking worlds and thus it is called All Lord.

It appears empty to our sensual apparatus because it is non dual .. devoid of any contrast whatsoever. Due to lack of contrast the mind is not aware of it. The Seer Consciousness -- the slumber-less Self, however Sees its own nature as the Prajnana.


  • Prajnana is dense jnana (knowledge) just as space is dense sound.
  • Prajnana is dense ananda (bliss) which mind remembers faintly on awakening from deep sleep.
  • Yogis are united with Prajnana (one's own nature) without a break. And in this state of yoga, the skandhas are known as empty.

Skandhas are known as empty does not mean that the Yogi is empty too, since the Yogi is not the skandhas. Yogi is That.

The Knower of Brahman becomes Brahman.
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
May be it is me only or may be not.

When someone asserts anatta again and again, using the very self, the self gets asserted again and again.

Anatta can be asserted again and again only with an atma.

Perhaps that is because you are still seeing things from the viewpoint of atma.

Once again: there is no experiencer of the experience, and that applies to me as well. If you can find such an experiencer, then please bring him forth here into the light so we can examine him. Until you can produce such an animal, there is nothing more to discuss. Remember, you are the one making the claim, and so it is incumbent upon you to demonstrate its veracity.. Your conclusions are nothing more than dogmatic utterances. I don't think you are aware of the moment at which you falsely conceive the existence of the knower; the experiencer. Your logic is that, because there is an experience, there also must be an experiencer of the experience. Not so.
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
?? Is wisdom (prajnana) then empty?

Sunyata is an experience of the Skandhas being anatta. Sunyata is an experience that Skandhas are not the Self.

OTOH, Prajna is dense jnana (knowledge) just as space is dense sound.

The word is pra-jnana.

pra is PRE
jnana is Knowledge.

Prajnana is variously described as Wisdom or as the Precursor of Jnana.

Prajnana is also described as Sarvesvara -- the All Lord -- that we enter into in deep sleep. It holds in its bosom the seeds of manifestation that occur in dream and in waking. It controls our dream and waking worlds and thus it is called All Lord.

It appears empty to our sensual apparatus because it is non dual .. devoid of any contrast whatsoever. Due to lack of contrast the mind is not aware of it. The Seer Consciousness -- the slumber-less Self, however Sees its own nature as the Prajnana.


  • Prajnana is dense jnana (knowledge) just as space is dense sound.
  • Prajnana is dense ananda (bliss) which mind remembers faintly on awakening from deep sleep.
  • Yogis are united with Prajnana (one's own nature) without a break. And in this state of yoga, the skandhas are known as empty.

Skandhas are known as empty does not mean that the Yogi is empty too, since the Yogi is not the skandhas. Yogi is That.

No, because the skandhas are empty does not mean the yogi is also empty, but the yogi is empty nonetheless.

The Knower of Brahman becomes Brahman.

There is no such becoming. To think becoming has occurred is to be deluded. All is already Brahman*. There is no such 'knower' of Brahman, because Brahman is the Absolute, and as such, there cannot be any such relative 'other' to which it can be compared.


....from the innermost secret nondual view of Shankara’s Advaita Vedanta there is no contradiction in the Atman-Self doctrine and the Buddhist doctrine of anatman or no-self, for when the neti, neti (not this, not this) vichara consideration (p.209) is carried to its ultimate conclusion, the ostensibly permanent and eternal incarnating Atman-Self that is Brahman of the Upanishads, is ontologically identical to the “emptiness of self” (anatman) of the Madhyamaka Prasangika (Rangtong), the great centrist view of Mahayana Buddhism. That is, the Atman-Self is not, at its nondual root, an absolute, eternal, permanently existent substrate or self-entity at all, for it is identical to Nirguna Brahman which is “empty of all qualities and attributes,” including the attribute of self-existence.


...Again, the Atman-Self that is Brahman is empty of all predicates, including inherent existence. The Truth—emptiness, Dharmakaya, etc. —is said to be empty in essence,
luminous clarity in its nature, and compassionate in its energy expression. This could be said of Nirguna Brahman as well. Therefore, the Buddhist criticism targets only
the outer exoteric, theistic, dualistic Hindu view of Brahman, and not the more subtle nondual view of Advaita Vedanta...

... Vedantists speak of nondual Brahman as “empty of all qualities and attributes.” Thus Shunyata and Nirguna Brahman share the same nondual ontological status. “Truth is One, many are its names” (Rig Veda)....

...For Shankara’s Advaita Vedanta the supreme truth of the three Hindu canons (the Upanishads, Vedanta Sutra and Bhagvad Gita) is the nondual nature of Brahman, Absolute Spirit that is Reality Itself. For the Advaita Vedanta of Shankara, Brahman is the nondual primordial awareness that is Absolute or Ultimate Consciousness Being Itself, “One, without a second,” without limit, empty of all predicates, attributes and qualities, beyond concept and belief, or any subject-object dualism whatsoever...


http://davidpaulboaz.org/_documents/stromata/shankaras_advaita_vedanta.pdf

Footnote:

Some may charge that this reduction and identification of the “many names” of the
great nondual Truth of Absolute Spirit, primordial awareness itself, especially the
ontological identity of Advaita Vedanta’s nondual Brahman and Madhyamaka’s
shunyata/emptiness constitutes the theoretical placement of “a yak’s head upon a
sheep’s body” (or vice-versa). As seen above, the Buddhist criticism seems to reduce to a
“straw man” argument. In any case, clearly, there are important relative conventional
differences between the great traditions. However, the rime (lit. unbiased) ecumenical
movement of twenty first century Buddhism and the emerging non-sectarian
rapprochement of religion, science and culture of the unfolding New Reformation require
that the relative truths of the exoteric- conventional biases of the old paradigm be
surrendered to this re-emergence of the primordial nondual view, the view of the
absolute or ultimate truth of the great Primordial Wisdom Tradition of humankind.
These relative truths have been debated and fought over by exoteric and esoteric
religion since we evolved a cortex and a sword. Indeed, that there is any greater truth
than the metaphysical presumptions of scientific materialism – the cult of scientism - is
still denied by the fundamentalist values of the mind states of the first three life stages
(Chap I and Appendix A). Now, at the dawn of this New Reformation of Synthesis, we
are called to surrender our identity in these dualistic conceptual and belief systems of
the past, while yet participating fully in our individual and thereby collective liberation
through the very specific sadhana—view and practice—of a particular tradition within
this Great Wisdom Tradition.

http://davidpaulboaz.org/_documents/stromata/shankaras_advaita_vedanta.pdf

*Brahman is the Changeless; The Absolute. A corollary from Buddhism is to say that: 'If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him!'. That is to say, if you see something becoming the Buddha, it is not the true Buddha. You do not become the Buddha; you ARE the Buddha.
 
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atanu

Member
Premium Member
There is no such becoming.

I hate this. You are mixing terminologies of Hinduism and Buddhism without knowing any one of them.

You use the Shruti "tat tvam asi" ( you are that) but reject that the 'THAT' refers TO Brahman, which is defined as 'Existence-Consciousness-Bliss' .

The Brahman is Existent. It is Consciousness. and it is Bliss. Hindu scriptures do not define Brahman as Sunya. It is worst kind of syncretic practise that you are resorting to.

.......

Now. There is another Shruti "The knower of Brahman becomes Brahman".

You are now insolently asserting the Shruti to be false.



I have only one request. I do not have any objection to any of your posts. But please do not justify them by resorting to Shruti like 'Tat Tvam Asi".

Or if you use "Tat Tvam Asi", then kindly also pay heed to the Shruti "Knower of Brahman becomes Brahman".

If you are humble and willing you may wish to update:


The Knower of Brahman becomes Brahman
 
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atanu

Member
Premium Member
Brahman is changeless yet it is that which changes first. Brahman is motionless yet it overtakes all.

That is how Brahman is explained in Shruti. Taking one aspect and rejecting the other is sign of a bias.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
A Shruti like "a knower of Brahman becomes Brahman" takes cognisance of the seeker's perspective.

Brahman-God is deathless and never in ignorance. So, the question of "What happens when you die" does not apply.

This question can only apply to us who die. So, the perspective must begin from our end.

Selectively superimposing Buddhist atheistic idea on selected Vedanta verses to impose the Absolute Brahman perspective can only lead to another superposition.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
I hate this. You are mixing terminologies of Hinduism and Buddhism without knowing any one of them.

You use the Shruti "tat tvam asi" ( you are that) but reject that the 'THAT' refers TO Brahman, which is defined as 'Existence-Consciousness-Bliss' .

The Brahman is Existent. It is Consciousness. and it is Bliss. Hindu scriptures do not define Brahman as Sunya. It is worst kind of syncretic practise that you are resorting to.

There is no need to stir your emotions about this.

I am mixing nothing. Reality behind the terms is not Two. It is singular.
.
First of all, Buddhism emerged from Hinduism, so the 'mix' and interconected continuum from Hinduism to Buddhism is already present.

Secondly, I never rejected 'THAT', but I did say that it too is empty. You don't like that because you maintain the image of an anthropomorphic deity (ie; 'Lord').

No, the Hindu scriptures may not define Brahman as Sunya, but the author of the piece I posted certainly did, and he explained the connection behind the apparent schism between Buddhist thought and Hindu thought, while also showing that Brahman is empty.

Brahman is good.

Empty is good.

Get over it.

How can you talk about 'Brahman is existent' without also including non-existence? The fact is that Brahman is both and neither because Brahman is The Absolute, and is beyond all dualities.
*****

To the question; "Is the snake there?", the answer is: "there is no snake; the snake was never in the rope."

It is in this strain that the Lord gives out, almost in the same breath, what appears to be two contradictory statements:

"Everything is in Me; and nothing is in Me." [ie; 'Empty'; 'Sunyata']

This is the cosmic mystery of the existence of the Universe. It is and is not - sad-asad-vilakshaNa, mAyA!
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
Now. There is another Shruti "The knower of Brahman becomes Brahman".

You are now insolently asserting the Shruti to be false.

It may not be so much that the Shruti is false, but that these exact words may not convey the author's exact meaning. Why do suppose Zen exists? It is for this very reason, that the first hand spiritual experience is the exact Truth, while the scriptures are only second-hand accounts that can be misconstrued. And so we sometimes hear of the enlightened tossing the scriptures into a fire.

The 'knower of Brahman' does not 'become' anything, just as the uncarved block does not become the figurine. The carver merely removes material to reveal the image. You do not 'know' Brahman by the addition of knowledge, but by the subtraction of delusion. Brahman is always present, because Tat tvam asi. Tat tvam asi does not say 'Thou becometh That'; it says: 'Thou ART That'.

'The knower of Brahman becomes Brahman' simply means that one realizes that Brahman is already one's actual nature.
 
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