What has happened to Protestantism?

[Rival]

Thank you for the link.

I wish you would trust personal anecdote more.

I am tired of this inhuman way of thinking. We do not go by stats day to day but by what we see.

Stats are meaningless in real life. We should not accept them as proof for what we experience when experience differs.

Less science, more living real life.

 

[Spice]

I'm talking about what you find in most modern Prot churches, hence the thread title. You find neither Tradition nor Saints nor liturgy.

Do you consider "liturgy" basicly the Eucharistic? In Protestant view, that is Communion, but liturgy is an accumulation of many aspects of the worship service, from the Call to Worship, to the benediction, and every standard formality of the denomination's program, including the passing of the collection plate.
Christian liturgy: the celebration of divine worship, the proclamation of the Gospel, and active charity.

 

[Rival]

Do you consider "liturgy" basicly the Eucharistic? In Protestant view, that is Communion, but liturgy is an accumulation of many aspects of the worship service, from the Call to Worship, to the benediction, and every standard formality of the denomination's program, including the passing of the collection plate.
Christian liturgy: the celebration of divine worship, the proclamation of the Gospel, and active charity.

Liturgy is a set system of worship. In the Anglican Church we use the Book of Common Prayer or Common Worship.

Without a Eucharist there is no point to church attendance. I would consider such a 'church' theologically vapid.

 

[Tamino]

CATHOLIC, ORTODOX, ANGLICAN MUSI

VS PROTESTANT MUSIC

WELL I BELIEVE THE FIRST SONG IS BEST. IT FEELS MORE SACRED

Johann Sebastian Bach was a Lutheran Protestant. I think his Music feels plenty "sacred"

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Lutherans have a liturgy.

Luther had a high Mariology etc.

And archaeopteryx had teeth.

Sola Scriptura as modern Protestants understand it is not how the Reformers understood it, either.

Every denomination changes over time. In any case, it isn't like any of what you listed was invented from whole cloth in the 90s.

 

[Watchmen]

All you Christians crack me up. You’re arguing over worship music. You all know both versions (I’ll call traditional vs rock) have no basis in the Bible and are NOT what the shepherds would’ve heard the angels singing when Christ was born, right?

 

[Spice]

Liturgy is a set system of worship. In the Anglican Church we use the Book of Common Prayer or Common Worship.

Without a Eucharist there is no point to church attendance. I would consider such a 'church' theologically vapid.

I just got home and I brought with me a bulletin from yesterday's Methodist services in my town. There is definitely a liturgy:
● THE CALL TO WORSHIP
Responsive Reading #1
● HYMN OF PRAISE
Opening Prayer
Epistle Lesson
New Testament Lesson
Responsive Reading #2
UMH # 781
● GLORIA PATRI
Children's Sermon
Sermon
● HYMN OF RESPONSE
● AFFIRMATION OF FAITH
CALL TO PRAYER
Prayers of the People
Pastoral PRAYER
Lord's PRAYER
Offertory
● DEDICATION OF THE OFFERINGS
"The Doxology"
● CLOSING HYMN
Benediction
● POSTLUDE

[● STAND AS ABLE]
This was not a Sunday of Communion.
I'm not Methodist so I don't know if they do Communion monthly or quarterly, and I don't remember how often my childhood church did it either, but the Liturgy was very similar to this one.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It's very lonely here and I detest it. I have joined the largest religion in the world and can still find no-one in my age group to form a community.

It's ***-poor and I'm starting to despise my own age group.

I hear you, Rival, and I'm so very sorry. All I can really do is send you a big cyber hug to let you know I care.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Not sure where you heard this but it's not true.

I thought it was the Episcopal Church. I do like the Methodist Church though.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

I wish you would trust personal anecdote more.

I am tired of this inhuman way of thinking. We do not go by stats day to day but by what we see.

Stats are meaningless in real life. We should not accept them as proof for what we experience when experience differs.

Less science, more living real life.

Trust people on the internet without researching their claims?

You are joking right?

 

[Brickjectivity]

I was baptized an Anglican a few weeks ago.

I missed this announcement. Wow!

I am finding, however, that young Protestants (under 30 or 35) seem to take Protestantism to mean:

1. No liturgy.

2. No Tradition.

3. No Saints.

4. Bible only.

5. Rock music.

Liturgy: many do not understand what it is for. If more evangelicals had heard of it and understood what it was for they would request it perhaps.

Tradition: this is hard sell, because what is it?

No Saints: The superstitions surrounding saints prevent the Wandering Generations from reassessing the concept. What's missing is a lot of information -- probably information which is not public. Possibly it has been forgotten. Commune with saints, why? Because catholics do it? Otherwise church people might be interested.

Bible Only: developed in USA in places where people had only preachers and bibles. For example in the Appalachians some people began handling snakes in church, because of Mark chapter 16, which is now widely understood to be a late addition to the gospel as it does not appear in the earliest manuscripts. For long periods of time the anglicans and the other catholics were distrusted and for good reason. They were politically active. The Puritans (Calvinists) in the 17th century avoided the oppression of state churches, and state churches were typically thought of as oppressive. This thinking became part of USA thought in many places other than New England where the Puritans were. Many churches saw the traditional churches as political -- which they were. The traditions were mostly forgotten in many places. Eucharist become communion -- similar in form but performed differently. Vestments slowly became a thing of the past.

Rock Music: when this appeared it was originally suspected of being evil, but after it won over public trust the churches set out to put it into use. That acceptance process took about 40 years. I don't think people understand worship and why hymns are used or why this or that, so they just do whatever they find in scripture. For example somebody in scripture lifts their hands, so people think that must be part of worship.

Its not just rock music that has been introduced though, but its that churches now have "Music ministry" which is used effectively to set the mood in church services. Many will have a music team which provides mood, sometimes even during the preaching. Many people consider the musical notes and the rhythm to have a supernatural quality, too. I tend to think that is incorrect, however it does set the mood.

So what keeps an Anglican from visiting other kinds of churches to meet people? I don't see why you cannot.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Anglicans are considered to be Protestants. Remember Henry VIII and all that brouhaha?

Henry VIII remained a Catholic until his death, albeit the Church in England, of which he appointed himself head, was then and remains now, in schism with Rome.

The subsequent history of the CoE is in part a history of competing religious ideologies; High Anglicanism - which is almost indistinguishable from Catholicism - on the one hand, and various Protestant movements on the other. High Anglicanism has held the upper hand for most of the centuries after the Act of Secession, as evidenced by the clerical hierarchy of Archbishops, Bishops etc down to Parish Priests, and by the retention of a liturgy and rites which are recognisable to Roman Catholics.

So I don’t think it’s right to say that the Anglican Church is unequivocally Protestant, but rather that it has accommodated Protestantism without deviating that much from the institution of which it was originally a part. A truly English compromise, in fact.

 

[Heyo]

I was baptized an Anglican a few weeks ago.

I am finding, however, that young Protestants (under 30 or 35) seem to take Protestantism to mean:

1. No liturgy.

2. No Tradition.

3. No Saints.

4. Bible only.

5. Rock music.

Etc.

This is not Anglicanism, the largest Protestant denomination in the world. This is not Lutheranism, either.

What is going on?

Do people think liturgy = RCC?

Saints = RCC?

Tradition = RCC?

I have grown up with Anglicanism and we have and always have had all these things.

Wtf is happening to Protestantism?

I don't know enough about Anglicanism, but it is Lutheranism. Luther had a few things to say about the RCC (95 to be precise). Saints, dogma and "tradition" among them.
Lutherans are traditionally () progressive, whereas the RCC is conservative.

 

[Heyo]

Bible Only: developed in USA in places where people had only preachers and bibles.

Nope. Sola scriptura is older than Europeans being in the Americas, even older than protestantism itself. Most protestants, Lutherans, Calvinists, Hussites and Mennonites have it as a principle.

 

[Secret Chief]

I wish you would trust personal anecdote more.

I am tired of this inhuman way of thinking. We do not go by stats day to day but by what we see.

Stats are meaningless in real life. We should not accept them as proof for what we experience when experience differs.

Less science, more living real life.

Personal anecdote is the experience of individuals, it cannot be the basis for a presentation of causal reality, whereas statistics uses data as a tool to express this. No-one is using a keyboard for posting on RF after years of collecting anecdotes.

 

[Secret Chief]

All you Christians crack me up. You’re arguing over worship music. You all know both versions (I’ll call traditional vs rock) have no basis in the Bible and are NOT what the shepherds would’ve heard the angels singing when Christ was born, right?

That's rock?! Lord above, save me.

 

[Viker]

What happened?

The Evangelical movement. Been killing traditional protestantism since the early 1800s. And technically, it could be considered modern protestantism. I was raised between being fundamentalist Baptist and Evangelical. I remember them both frowning on things like the RCC, COE, etc.

 

[LuisDantas]

As the largest Protestant 'culture' it should be the most widely represented.

Should it, though?

Anglicanism was created for a very specific purpose, and is very tied to England (not even the UK as such). A major reason why it exists as its own Church is to serve specific roles within England.

I don't think that it is even too much of a stretch that it exists and persists mainly because it ensures the continuous existence of a small but noticeable number of Lords Spiritual in the House, which may be important for effective and continuous communication between the Monarch and the two Houses.

Protestantism in general simply isn't all about a central authority in the same way that Orthodox and Catholics are. It is prone to splintering. In that respect Anglicanism just isn't typical of Protestantism - and even then it has split in Ireland, then in Wales, and quite remarkably was never much of a thing in Scotland. It is an English belief, made by Englishmen for English People. So much so that it felt the need to call its overseas representatives by a separate name (Episcopalians).

As Protestant Churches go, Anglicans and Episcopalians are among the most sane. But that does not translate into overall demographic nor doctrinary significance, nor in particularly close communion with even its own main branches.

 

[Heyo]

Johann Sebastian Bach was a Lutheran Protestant. I think his Music feels plenty "sacred"

And his music is rock music, Ba-roque.
(And he must have disliked the church. All his secular music is way better than anything he did for the church.)

 

[Secret Chief]

Should it, though?

Anglicanism was created for a very specific purpose, and is very tied to England (not even the UK as such). A major reason why it exists as its own Church is to serve specific roles within England.

I don't think that it is even too much of a stretch that it exists and persists mainly because it ensures the continuous existence of a small but noticeable number of Lords Spiritual in the House, which may be important for effective and continuous communication between the Monarch and the two Houses.

Protestantism in general simply isn't all about a central authority in the same way that Orthodox and Catholics are. It is prone to splintering. In that respect Anglicanism just isn't typical of Protestantism - and even then it has split in Ireland, then in Wales, and quite remarkably was never much of a thing in Scotland. It is an English belief, made by Englishmen for English People. So much so that it felt the need to call its overseas representatives by a separate name (Episcopalians).

As Protestant Churches go, Anglicans and Episcopalians are among the most sane. But that does not translate into overall demographic nor doctrinary significance, nor in particularly close communion with even its own main branches.

Wouldn't England still be Catholic if Henry VIII could have kept it in his pants?