I did some research, found a few places, but I will try to read the chapters they are in and Gospels again. So I can show you how the context does not mean something else.
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What if these Christian beliefs are not true?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
I Am Hugh
Researcher
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Go ahead. I look forward to it.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Thanks. There is a lot of information on that post but I am focused on the question I asked.
I believe that Christ died for our sins.
Can you tell me how you think Christ being resurrected has anything to do with our sins?
Why would a bodily resurrection have been necessary in order to deal with our sins?
If a bodily resurrection was not necessary to deal with our sins then why would it have been necessary?
I Am Hugh
Researcher
It's covered in the post I linked to.
Correct. In part. Christ gave his blood to repay the blood of Adam. Covered in the post I linked to.
Sin came from Adam. We inherited it. The removal of that sin, so that we can live forever on earth without sin, is done through the blood of Christ. We couldn't have it without him having sacrificed it. Soul (blood) for soul. Life (soul} for life. Jesus life for Adam's life. Put simply Adam was meant to live forever. Had he not sinned he, and consequently we, wouldn't die. The wages of sin are death. Upon death wages are paid. In order to be resurrected Christ had to give his life, his blood, his soul (all the same thing). All covered in the post I linked to.
Justice. The blood sacrifice. A fine had to be paid. Like the blood sacrifice of the bull when someone was murdered outside of town and no one knew who did it - in the post I linked to. Life, the soul, the blood belongs to God. It's sacred.
The sacrifice was necessary. Think about this, Jesus wasn't resurrected back into the body he sacrificed. The angels took that away. That's why some of his followers didn't recognize him, thought he was the caretaker/gardener. The body Jesus was resurrected into, wasn't the same as the one he had before. The blood sacrifice was necessary, but the bodily resurrection was in another body. It demonstrated God's ability to resurrect the dead.
Not "for our sins", per se.
But the resurrection of Christ bolsters / strengthens our faith that there will be a resurrection for us (& others), if necessary. --1 Corinthians 15:12-18
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
With all due respect for your beliefs, I think is the most dangerous thing about Christians believing that Christ rose from the dead is them believing that they will also rise from the dead because I consider that belief to be completely false. As such, I believe millions of Christians are waiting for something to happen that will never happen.
Won’t the Dead Rise Again?
If Christ’s resurrection is a spiritual one, then so must ours be. Paul makes this exact point when he compares the “first Adam” with “the last Adam”.
bahaiteachings.org
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I agree that sin came from Adam and humans inherited it, but not for the reasons that Christians believe that since I do not believe tere was ever any original sin committed in the Garden of Eden; I believe that story is an allegory.
Rather, I believe that when Adam was born, he entered into the world of good and evil, the material world... The attachment to the material world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam... It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and instead have the propensity to sin and do evil.
I believe that the removal of that sin, so that we can live on earth without sin till we die and then live and forever in heaven without sin, was done through the blood of Christ.
I do not believe that God ever intended for Adam to live in a physical body forever on earth, and that if Adam had not sinned nobody would ever die and everyone would have lived forever on earth. Not only is that belief absurd, it is not supported by the Bible, since the Bible says that we go to heaven after we die physically. Living forever on earth is a doctrine some Christians hold to but that belief that came about from a misinterpretation of the Bible.
The wages of sin is spiritual death, not physical death. Our physical bodies were created by God to be mortal, so everyone was always slated to die physically.
I do not believe in atonement for our sins so I don't believe in any fine that had to be paid. I believe that Jesus willingly chose to be a sacrifice for our sins, and that is all there is to it.
I do not believe that Jesus was resurrected into any body. I believe he died on the cross and ascended to heaven fortwith.
Why would God want to demonstrate His ability to resurrect a dead body, even if He could? A body is just a body and all physical bodies will die eventually. Moreover, Jesus did not consider our life in the flesh to be of any value. It is the life of the spirit that matters.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
Colt
Well-Known Member
It being all the 4 things you stated in the OP.
I Am Hugh
Researcher
I'm not sure I understand. To better understand your beliefs and why you believe them do you mind if I barrage you with questions? Was Adam a real person, who had real children? What does sin mean? Was the Garden of Eden (a somewhat redundant term) a real place?
An allegorical world? Good and evil being subjective terms, prior to Adam and sin, had anyone, including God, ever experienced anything that wasn't good?
Why would attachment to the material world be sin? What is the material world? What of Adam's descendants that did/do not have such an attachment?
Didn't God create evil? (Isaiah 45:7)
How so? Why? If Adam was born into the material world and sin is an attachment to that material world, which is all allegorical, is our everlasting life in heaven, Jesus and his blood allegorical as well?
He created the spirit beings, angels if you wish, to live forever in heaven but only put Adam on earth, saying that he would die if he sinned (missed the mark) allegorically, only to put him in heaven to live forever? Why not just have put him in heaven in the first place?
Where does the Bible say we go to heaven after we die and who is the we it refers to?
Absurd? Not supported by the Bible?
The meek will inherit what and live forever upon it in peace? Earth or heaven? (Matthew 5:5; Psalm 37:11)
What misinterpretation would that be?
Then why would God say if you touch the fruit of the tree he would die if he would die anyway? (Romans 6:7)
To demonstrate the resurrection.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You said: If it (4 things) isn’t true then Jesus isn’t and wasn’t trustworthy which would cast doubt on all religions.
1) Jesus is God -- Jesus never claimed to be God
2) Jesus is the only way to God -- based upon one verse that has been misconstrued.
3) Jesus rose from the dead -- based upon conflicting stories men wrote about Jesus.
4) Jesus is going to return to earth -- Jesus never said he was going to return to earth, he said he would never return.
cataway
Well-Known Member
the world refers to the people ,be it the attitude of the people living at a given time and how they will react to different situations . Jesus had to deal with a religious organization that said they were looking for the Christ , yet he was rejected mostly because he did not do what they thought the christ should do ,that was to remove the Romans from the land. they wanted their world left alone, Rome had different ideas. by 73 the World of Israel ended.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, I do not mind a barrage of questions especially because I realize that my Baha'i beliefs are not well known to many people.
I believe that we are living in the religious cycle which began with Adam but I believe that there were other religious cycles that preceded the Adamic cycle.
Yes, I believe that Adam was a real person. I believe that he was the first prophet in the Adamic cycle of religion.
I do not know if Adam had children.
Sin is disobedience to God's laws and falling short of the glory of God.
I do not believe that the Garden of Eden was a real place that existed on earth.
No, I do not believe it was an allegorical world, I believe that the story was an allegory. This chapter explains what I believe anout Adam and Eve:
The material world is all the things in this world, but in this context it refers to the things that people so enjoy.
Attachment to the material world leads to sin which is disobedience to God's laws so it separates us from God.
Adams descendants did have such an attachment. Below is an excerpt from the chapter above.
"For the spirit and the soul of Adam, when they were attached to the human world, passed from the world of freedom into the world of bondage, and His descendants continued in bondage. This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in the midst of, and at enmity with, the spirits and the descendants of Adam. That enmity continues and endures. For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity. It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position."
Jesus saved us and freed us from attachment to worldly things by offering his teachings and then dying on the cross.
"When the sanctified breezes of Christ and the holy light of the Greatest Luminary 5 were spread abroad, the human realities—that is to say, those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins (that is, the detachment of spirits from the human world, and their attraction to the divine world) in order that souls may arise who will be the very essence of the guidance of mankind, and the manifestations of the perfections of the Supreme Kingdom."
For example, Jesus said that attachment to the things of this world causes us to lose eternal life.
John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
No, God does not create evil. I believe that the KJV is a poor translation.
There are other translations that are more accurate.
ESV I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.
NIRV I cause light to shine. I also create darkness. I bring good times. I also create hard times. I do all these things. I am the Lord.
NIV I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 - Bible Gateway
God does not create evil. Humans are responsible for all the evil in the world.
“God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand.”
Sorry I confused you. What is allegorical is the story of Adam and Eve and a Garden of Eden.
The material world is not allegorical, it is real.
Everlasting life in heaven and Jesus and his blood are also real.
I do not believe that God created spirit beings (angels) to live forever in heaven. I believe that angels are spirit beings in heaven were once humans on earth.
I believe that since Adam was a prophet so he was in heaven with God before he was born into this world. Adam passed from the world of freedom (heaven - the spiritual world) into the world of bondage (earth - the material world) and Adam's descendants who lived on earth continued in bondage, until they were freed by the teachings and cross sacrifice of Jesus.
I do not know all of the verses but here is one of them:
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
We is anyone who has eternal life.
No, nowhere in the Bible does it say that anyone will live forever on earth.
That is true. The meek people who are living when peace comes and their progeny will live on earth in peace.
People who have died already went to heaven. They will not be raised from graves and live on earth forever.
Any interpretation that says that people will be raised from the dead and live on earth forever.
Where does it say that?
Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
I asked you why God would want to do that:
Why would God want to demonstrate His ability to resurrect a dead body, even if He could?
Balthazzar
N. Germanic Descent
I guess we'll need to supplant and carry out the work ourselves, in which case I would suggest number three equates to being of the same mind and spirit. If this is the only way to God, or if he isn't I would suggest it's up to us to move in a little closer to God's truth by understanding our own connection as co heirs with Jesus and status as children, each of us playing a particular role and performing specific functions within the body of humanity itself.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is a Baha'i belief. Both Baha'u'llah and his son Abdu'l-Baha referred to Adam as a prophet.
As Abdu'l-Baha notes in Some Answered Questions (122–26), many interpretations of the Edenic story are possible, but indisputable from a Baha'i point of view is the fact that Adam was a prophet of God. In the Qur'an, Muhammad describes Adam as revealing the essentially spiritual nature of the physical world.Nov 7, 2017
Was Adam a Prophet? - BahaiTeachings.org
I meant that I don't know if Adam had his own family, sons or daughters.
Everyone who lived after Adam lived are Adam's descendants since they descended from Adam..
cataway
Well-Known Member
No, I do not mind a barrage of questions especially because I realize that my Baha'i beliefs are not well known to many people.
I believe that we are living in the religious cycle which began with Adam but I believe that there were other religious cycles that preceded the Adamic cycle.
Yes, I believe that Adam was a real person. I believe that he was the first prophet in the Adamic cycle of religion.
I do not know if Adam had children.
Sin is disobedience to God's laws and falling short of the glory of God.
I do not believe that the Garden of Eden was a real place that existed on earth.
No, I do not believe it was an allegorical world, I believe that the story was an allegory. This chapter explains what I believe anout Adam and Eve:
The material world is all the things in this world, but in this context it refers to the things that people so enjoy.
Attachment to the material world leads to sin which is disobedience to God's laws so it separates us from God.
Adams descendants did have such an attachment. Below is an excerpt from the chapter above.
"For the spirit and the soul of Adam, when they were attached to the human world, passed from the world of freedom into the world of bondage, and His descendants continued in bondage. This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in the midst of, and at enmity with, the spirits and the descendants of Adam. That enmity continues and endures. For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity. It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position."
Jesus saved us and freed us from attachment to worldly things by offering his teachings and then dying on the cross.
"When the sanctified breezes of Christ and the holy light of the Greatest Luminary 5 were spread abroad, the human realities—that is to say, those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins (that is, the detachment of spirits from the human world, and their attraction to the divine world) in order that souls may arise who will be the very essence of the guidance of mankind, and the manifestations of the perfections of the Supreme Kingdom."
For example, Jesus said that attachment to the things of this world causes us to lose eternal life.
John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
No, God does not create evil. I believe that the KJV is a poor translation.
There are other translations that are more accurate.
ESV I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.
NIRV I cause light to shine. I also create darkness. I bring good times. I also create hard times. I do all these things. I am the Lord.
NIV I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Isaiah 45:7 - Bible Gateway
www.biblegateway.com
God does not create evil. Humans are responsible for all the evil in the world.
“God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand.”
Sorry I confused you. What is allegorical is the story of Adam and Eve and a Garden of Eden.
The material world is not allegorical, it is real.
Everlasting life in heaven and Jesus and his blood are also real.
I do not believe that God created spirit beings (angels) to live forever in heaven. I believe that angels are spirit beings in heaven were once humans on earth.
I believe that since Adam was a prophet so he was in heaven with God before he was born into this world. Adam passed from the world of freedom (heaven - the spiritual world) into the world of bondage (earth - the material world) and Adam's descendants who lived on earth continued in bondage, until they were freed by the teachings and cross sacrifice of Jesus.
I do not know all of the verses but here is one of them:
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
We is anyone who has eternal life.
No, nowhere in the Bible does it say that anyone will live forever on earth.
That is true. The meek people who are living when peace comes and their progeny will live on earth in peace.
People who have died already went to heaven. They will not be raised from graves and live on earth forever.
Any interpretation that says that people will be raised from the dead and live on earth forever.
Where does it say that?
Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
I asked you why God would want to do that:
Why would God want to demonstrate His ability to resurrect a dead body, even if He could?
many sons and daughters , we are not told how many .only a few sons are mentioned
Madsaac
Active Member
What do you mean ‘What if…..’ there not but neither are yours, so what does that mean?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
There is only one truth which is reality and reality does not contradict itself, so these beliefs are either true or false.
Jesus is either God or Jesus is not God
Jesus is either the only way to God or there are other ways
Jesus either rose from the dead or He did not rise from the dead
Jesus is either going to return to earth or He is not going to return to earth
I meant that what if the reality is that:
1) Jesus is not God
2) Jesus is not the only way to God
3) Jesus did not rise from the dead
4) Jesus is not going to return to earth
What if these beliefs are not true but rather false?
What did you mean by "there not but neither are yours" ?